JB In Historical Context

[Nuxfanabroad]

Doesn't feel like a small measure of irony in starting this thread. The man I've dubbed 'Gentleman Jim' has sure had his share of derision thrown his way, from the many, frothing overzealous detractors. This might be a classic case of the masses being dead wrong, to the extent that the exact opposite, is the noteworthy truth.

 

Been trying to think of an historical-comparable to JB's incredible 5yr(spanning 6 drafts) run at the podium. Not one who loves to scour the 'net, looking at lists from various teams, but certainly do enjoy jogging the old(failing) memory, to haphazardly amble down hockey's memory lane.

 

We all prob recall the draft coups of the game's recent 3, 4 Cup winners. Would argue most of their GM's benefitted from winning the lotto when there's an obvious, automatic player to pick. Malkin & Cros; Kane & Toews type work, which mostly sets off dominoes, & improves the fate of all decent picks thereafter.

 

To make this short & sweet, suggesting JB's work is best compared to that of legendary Isles GM, Bill Torrey. From about 1973 to '78, he would select the absolutely key pieces that would become the 1980-'84 Isle dynasty. From top pick Potvin through to '77 gem(#15 pick, Bossy); even landing the mighty Trottier in the 2nd! rd.

 

The Wings were also notable, but that was over a longer period, with Stevie delivered in '83, & the Russian wave so much later.

 

Don't wanna' jinx Gentleman Jim with this here thread, but let's face it, the horses are well outa' the barn, & galloping along at breakneck speed. We might be witnessing notable history as it unfolds, as his 2014-2019 work is accomplishing award achievements, which truly must leave his lengthy list of vociferous critics feeling like dimwitted dullards, who embarrassingly & awkwardly, completely missed the plot!

 

CDC'ers, love to hear your opinions. Any GM's(past or present) you'd like to reference here?

Edited February 2, 2020 by Nuxfanabroad

[Nuxfanabroad]

For younger fans I'd also recommend researching work of the legendary Jimmy Devellano; who scouted for those Isle teams, & later GM'ed Red Wing dominance.

 

I'm also sure many will reference the Oiler story, which is slightly complicated with the WHA admission/history. & also that Gretz was never 'traditionally' drafted.

[Phat Fingers]

A plus   

[Kevin Biestra]

Well, it's kind of an obvious example and they came into the league with Gretzky, but the Oilers dynasty was mostly built on draft steals...

 

 

Paul Coffey - #6 OA in 1980.  2nd best offensive defenseman in NHL history and much closer to #1 Bobby Orr than he is to whoever is at #3.  Needless to say the best player in that draft and picked behind Doug Wickenheiser, Darren Veitch etc.

 

Jari Kurri - #69 in the same draft.  The Oilers themselves picked ?Shawn Babcock? one round earlier, not to mention every team who whiffed on Kurri twice, and three times for some teams.

 

Walt Poddubny - #90 in the same draft.  A forgotten but very good player.  Three straight years with 38+ goals in the NHL.  Oilers cleaned house at this draft.

 

Andy Moog - #132 at the same draft.  It is between him and Glenn Resch for the greatest backup in NHL history and Moog was also a near-HOF-level starter.

 

Kevin Lowe - #21 overall in 1979.  Passed over by other teams in the first round for Jimmy Mann, Jay Wells, Tom McCarthy, Ray Allison, Doug Sulliman, etc.

 

Mark Messier - #48 in the same draft.  Retired as the #2 all time scorer in NHL history.

 

Glenn Anderson - #69 in the same draft.  Hall of Fame.

 

Grant Fuhr - #8 in 1981.  Hall of Fame.  Picked after Jim Benning, Mark Hunter, Doug Smith, etc.  #8 is pretty high for a goalie, but he was still much higher than 8th best in that draft.

 

Marc Habscheid - Pretty darn good for 113th overall in 1981 (6th round).  The kind of quality player the Oilers didn't even need for depth.

 

 

Honestly, I doubt anyone has topped or ever will top this.  This was over three years.

 

Recall that this team of draft steals won a Cup without Gretzky.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

I will do the EDM Oiler dynasty...yes or course they won four with Gretzky, but also one without him and Coffey, chances are they would have done pretty good if they never had him on their team too.  

 

1979 - 21 last pick in the first round Kevin Lowe.   They don't win without him, defensive conscious of the team.  48th top third of the 3rd round Mark Messier, pretty good haul with their first two picks (they didn't have a second rounder). 

 

1980 ... Just as good maybe better even, 6th overall Coffey, 4th round 69th all around Kurri, took a long time for Selanne to pass him, still one of the best Europeans ever, great two way force and a goal scoring machine in his own right.  Then icing on the cake Andy Moog in the 7th round...part of one of the best tandems of the 80's, and all-time.

 

1981.  Not as dramatic, but still landed them money goalie Grant Furh at 8th overall - and goat but a big part of several other cup teams and one of their best defenseman all-time Steve Smith at 111 in the 6th round. 

 

1982...went to the finals and drafted second to last...not a good haul Playfair and Loney line guys to do much ... the dynasty has almost arrived..

 

Hard to find three better consecutive drafts as the Oilers from 1979-1981...it's pretty sick ..

 

edit:  Glenn Anderson - how did I miss him?  Ha ha...

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by IBatch

[IBatch]

13 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

Well, it's kind of an obvious example and they came into the league with Gretzky, but the Oilers dynasty was mostly built on draft steals...

 

 

Paul Coffey - #6 OA in 1980.  2nd best offensive defenseman in NHL history and much closer to #1 Bobby Orr than he is to whoever is at #3.  Needless to say the best player in that draft and picked behind Doug Wickenheiser, Darren Veitch etc.

 

Jari Kurri - #69 in the same draft.  The Oilers themselves picked ?Shawn Babcock? one round earlier, not to mention every team who whiffed on Kuri twice, and three times for some teams.

 

Walt Poddubny - #90 in the same draft.  A forgotten but very good player.  Three straight years with 38+ goals in the NHL.  Oilers cleaned house at this draft.

 

Andy Moog - #132 at the same draft.  It is between him and Glenn Resch for the greatest backup in NHL history and Moog was also a near-HOF-level starter.

 

Kevin Lowe - #21 overall in 1979.  Passed over by other teams in the first round for Jimmy Mann, Jay Wells, Tom McCarthy, Ray Allison, Doug Sulliman, etc.

 

Mark Messier - #48 in the same draft.  Retired as the #2 all time scorer in NHL history.

 

Glenn Anderson - #69 in the same draft.  Hall of Fame.

 

Grant Fuhr - #8 in 1981.  Hall of Fame.  Picked after Jim Benning, Mark Hunter, Doug Smith, etc.  #8 is pretty high for a goalie, but he was still much higher than 8th best in that draft.

 

Marc Habscheid - Pretty darn good for 113th overall in 1981 (6th round).  The kind of quality player the Oilers didn't even need for depth.

 

 

Honestly, I doubt anyone has topped or ever will top this.  This was over three years.

 

Recall that this team of draft steals won a Cup without Gretzky.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok I see you beat me to it - was writing mine when I saw this reply come in but couldn't read it until I was down posting mine...both say the same thing - how to build a dynasty without high picks in three drafts. 

[johngould21]

1 hour ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

Doesn't feel like a small measure of irony in starting this thread. The man I've dubbed 'Gentleman Jim' has sure had his share of derision thrown his way, from the many, frothing overzealous detractors. This might be a classic case of the masses being dead wrong, to the extent that the exact opposite, is the noteworthy truth.

 

Been trying to think of an historical-comparable to JB's incredible 5yr(spanning 6 drafts) run at the podium. Not one who loves to scour the 'net, looking at lists from various teams, but certainly do enjoy jogging the old(failing) memory, to haphazardly amble down hockey's memory lane.

 

We all prob recall the draft coups of the game's recent 3, 4 Cup winners. Would argue most of their GM's benefitted from winning the lotto when there's an obvious, automatic player to pick. Malkin & Cros; Kane & Toews type work, which mostly sets off dominoes, & improves the fate of all decent picks thereafter.

 

To make this short & sweet, suggesting JB's work is best compared to that of legendary Isles GM, Bill Torrey. From about 1973 to '78, he would select the absolutely key pieces that would become the 1980-'84 Isle dynasty. From top pick Potvin through to '77 gem(#15 pick, Bossy); even landing the mighty Trottier in the 2nd! rd.

 

The Wings were also notable, but that was over a longer period, with Stevie delivered in '83, & the Russian wave so much later.

 

Don't wanna' jinx Gentleman Jim with this here thread, but let's face it, the horses are well outa' the barn, & galloping along at breakneck speed. We might be witnessing notable history as it unfolds, as his 2014-2019 work is accomplishing award achievements, which truly must leave his lengthy list of vociferous critics feeling like dimwitted dullards, who embarrassingly & awkwardly, completely missed the plot!

 

CDC'ers, love to hear your opinions. Any GM's(past or present) you'd like to reference here?

I still have those WTF moments when I recall Nonis drafting Patrick White. IF and I say a big IF the Sharks weren't up against the cap at the beginning of '09, would that Canuck team challenge for the Presidents Cup, let alone the Stanley Cup? How was that ever allowed to happen under Canuck management?

[IBatch]

The Habs also had a pretty good haul starting with a trade for Dryden in the late 60's for a bunch of picks to Boston that never played a game - and following up with drafting Lafleur (only Gretzky had a better run of consecutive seasons as him, 6 I think) at number one in 1971, and the second rounder that would come in and destroy the PHI flu eventually in Robinson, followed by one of the best L wingers all-time Shutt in 72, and a guy a trophy was inspired from Gainey in 73.    Hard to find three drafts that can beat that...but as the OP said NYI were doing the same thing almost at the same time starting in 72 maybe with Nystrom, then Potvin in 73 etc etc.

 

One thing history has taught us that great drafting over a short period of time makes for the best teams, in the cap era it's even more important given how hard it becomes to have more then 4-6 key guys.   The top three dynasties all drafted their teams in short order... JB Benning recent run of Calder winners and finalists definitely gives hope we could end up on a pretty elite list one day too (I'd like to see us on the 25 greatest teams all-time list one day - for teams that won multiple cups/dynasties, THN takes the best year and does a bio of it, think 1999 Dallas team came in at 25 last time they did it, can't qualify if you don't win a cup too).   

 

MTL, EDM, NYI were ranked 1,2,3 and rightly so.   Detroit # 8, CHI the year they won the presidents trophy barely losing a game in a shortened season came in at # 15...Lindens 94 team was given the edge over the 2011 team, partially because that series is still considered the best of the modern era, and also because the writers themselves felt the 94 team would beat the 2011 team in a 7 game series (they also rank the best team for each franchise that haven't won a cup).  The 94 Ranger team also is on the list but won't talk about that.   

[wildcam]

Jim Benning took over team in 2014  with maybe 3 prospects and not much to work with.

The first draft picking very well..

2014 - Virtanen, McCann, Demko, Tryamkin. Forsling

2015 - Boser, Brisebois, Gaudette,  Jasek

2106 - Joulevi, Lockwood

2017 - Pettersson, Lind, Dipietro, Gadjovich, Rathbone, 

2018 - Hughes, Woo, Madden, Utunen,

2019 - Podkolzin, Hoglander, Keppen, Focht,

 

Bt on drafting quick list of  picks that will make NHL and some are already playing.. The 2016 draft was only one that was least productive, still like Juolevi.

Great drafting...

Very exciting future and very exciting to watch this team..

Edited February 3, 2020 by wildcam

[Angry Goose]

4 hours ago, wildcam said:

Jim Benning took over team in 2014  with maybe 3 prospects and not much to work with.

The first draft picking very well..

2014 - Virtanen, McCann, Demko, Tryamkin. Forsling

2015 - Boser, Brisebois, Jasek

2106 - Joulevi, Lockwood

2017 - Pettersson, Lind, Dipietro, Gadjovich, Rathbone, 

2018 - Hughes, Woo, Madden, Utunen,

2019 - Podkolzin, Hoglander, Keppen, Focht,

 

Bt on drafting quick list of  picks that will make NHL and some are already playing.. The 2016 draft was only one that was least productive, still like Juolevi.

Great drafting...

Very exciting future and very exciting to watch this team..

2015 149th overall Adam Gaudette!

[DeNiro]

His drafting along with Brackett and co has been his best work but he deserves credit for his pro scouting of late too.

 

Picking up guys like Miller, Pearson, Roussel, Fantenberg, Leivo, and Motte when their value was considerably low (you would not get Miller for a conditional first now).
 

Those moves are not going to get as much praise as drafting Pettersson and Hughes, but they’re all important pieces to the success we’re having this season.

[wildcam]

18 hours ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

2015 149th overall Adam Gaudette!

Yes thanks.

[The Colt 45s]

Our team has a lot to be excited for because the rebuild is over.  It has taken a while, and we are dangerously close to making the playoffs.  And this young team needs the playoffs. The depth of character that is built from playing a seven game series is what will make them believers.

[Nuxfanabroad]

Boston dirtbags don't hold a candle to JB's drafting!

[Nuxfanabroad]

Is there a momentum occurring now, before we all clearly savour/appreciate it? Suspect there is.

 

Suppose in 2018 we had an extra 1st, which we used on a Wahlstrom/Boquist type..would that & the 2nd have nabbed Toffoli? Likely so, but we'll never know. We absolutely do know that Madden was enough, probably placing him firmly into the top half of 2018 1st rounders.

So you think about that..guy was actually a 3rd rounder. Look how quickly his stock rose. Short answer: All rival GM's are taking note of the excellence in JB's/Brackett's draft table prowess. How many future trades will we continue to extract max value, from the trusted currency of our drafted/developed prospects?

Other GM's will want a piece of this action.

 

*******************************Why stop there?**************************

 

Observe the class/appreciation with which the org is bestowing upon our recently retired vets. Look how all media reports are admitting(even if they don't like it) our team is tight, & playing hard for each other.

Take note of the close bond between our character vets, & cohesiveness with incoming ELC's(& their subsequent performance).

 

Just as the relative-stock of our prospects is rising, I believe the same effect may 'trickle up' to our vets with a yr/yrs remaining in term. There might be some great opportunities to swap that leadership into more youth/picks, this upcoming draft, or use that rising capital to deal away $$$ & easily get cap-compliant.

 

IF we can have a very solid spring here, we MIGHT be on the verge of a monster, sustainable(in a cap-paradigm..SO difficult to do)powerhouse. In sport, momentum can be such a powerful, overwhelming & appealing force.

[HKSR]

GMJB and Brackett must stay for the long term.  When you draft as well as they have over the past few years, it gives you so many options to work with.  You either keep the prospects and develop within, or ship them out for other key assets (ie. Miller, Toffoli, etc). 

 

With how well they draft, I hope they stay out of the UFA market indefinitely.  Just keep building through the draft.

 

I honestly think the Canucks will win a Cup with GMJB and Brackett... soon we'll have a powerful team with tons of depth, and will hit another homerun or two through the draft on ELCs that put the team over the top. 

[Lazurus]

The truth is in the eye of the beholder.

Right now while Benning has a job here he is the greatest GM in Vancouver history, team hasn't won anything but it was someone else's fault.

 

Once fired, and they all are, there will be another truth.

 

Stats and data will have meaning then.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Lazurus

[Maddogy]

21 hours ago, HKSR said:

GMJB and Brackett must stay for the long term.  When you draft as well as they have over the past few years, it gives you so many options to work with.  You either keep the prospects and develop within, or ship them out for other key assets (ie. Miller, Toffoli, etc). 

 

With how well they draft, I hope they stay out of the UFA market indefinitely.  Just keep building through the draft.

 

I honestly think the Canucks will win a Cup with GMJB and Brackett... soon we'll have a powerful team with tons of depth, and will hit another homerun or two through the draft on ELCs that put the team over the top. 

Unfortunately Brackett is likely to leave. J.B. and Weisbrod will be directly involved with scouting/drafting. It is difficult to say whether this will lead to good or bad things.

 

Nowadays teams with young cores tend to overachieve one year and then underachieve the next. J.B. is likely to be fired during a future season when Canucks underachieve. Perhaps as soon as next season. Hopefully the Canucks would luck out in the draft when they miss the playoffs in the future.

 

I think it is more likely that when Canucks win the Cup, we would say that the current G.M. at the time piggybacked off J.B.'s work and we should have J.B. back. 

[Canucklehead73]

I would say the biggest testament to our drafting success is not so much comparable to drafting players like Crosby/Malkin Kane/Toews but good decent NHL players in a broader term, drafting even in the first round can be hit or miss and landing NHL players each round is their hallmark of success...

 

I mean if you can add an impact NHL player every other year you draft that is outstanding! How many teams first round players make the NHL their first year?

 

And make an impact? Not very often imho... Boeser Petterson Hughes

 

And while there has been some misses DeNiro is right his pro scouting has been pretty impressive as well although Miller really turns it around 360 degrees...

 

And the flip side to not drafting a Crosby type player? We aren't going to have to pay our guys 12 Million in year 4... We have a shot to build a real team long term.

 

Well maybe... if Pettersson and Hughes especially gets any better lol We might be in trouble

[butters]

Toronto's rebuild is years ahead of ours and JB doesn't have a plan