(Proposal/Discussion) Value of Players

[NorthWestNuck]

Start this off with a disclaimer, I’m not suggesting any trade here, more looking for people’s valuations of this scenario.

 

talking with a couple friends about the value of a Trade sending Demko and Boeser for an elite young defenseman. More a hypothetical situation.

 

what level of Dman do you think we could potentially get in return? Just looking for outside opinions...

[qwijibo]

“Value of” threads are tough. Here’s why, you need to actually factor in what other teams need. A players value to other teams isn’t consistent. Especially if you’re looking for a specific return.  Then you’re getting into a true “hockey trade”. Where a team is looking to address a weakness by treating from a position of strength.  Is there a team out there that needs a young talented  winger and a young backup goalie MORE than they need their young elite D? I don’t know.  Maybe? Who that is I couldnt say. 

[Pears]

If we’re able to keep Toffoli I’d be open to that for sure but it would just be so tough moving either one of them. Demko would at least be expected/understandable due to the expansion draft. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

Probably get around a Eddie Lack type of return for Demko right now.  Demko has more upside but less proven than even Lack at that point.  Boeser health limits his value.  Not going to get an elite defenseman for that.  Not even close.  Heck the Coilers dealt Hall for just a #4 D.

[IBatch]

6 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Probably get around a Eddie Lack type of return for Demko right now.  Demko has more upside but less proven than even Lack at that point.  Boeser health limits his value.  Not going to get an elite defenseman for that.  Not even close.  Heck the Coilers dealt Hall for just a #4 D.

Hall trade doesn't count - it was ridiculous then and still is now.  

 

Jones for Johansen is the go to trade - that said it's happened what ONCE in the past 10 years ... and he's a center so higher value.   So extremely unlikely.  BB for Dumba might work right now because both players have missed time and Dumba's below his career norm (stock has lowered).   I 100% agree with the Demko trade, at least until the ed is over or he shows a lot of improvement he won't get us a very good return.  The better he plays - the better value of course.  

 

Top D's and first line centers are valued about the same - some like D's more, some C's.   Wingers unless they are elite like Panarin and Kane wouldn't get you one in most cases.  BB is probably worth a good second C with upside, or a good 2nd D with upside - doubt he'd get a top thirty D, even though he's a top five R winger in the entire league points wise.  We'd need to add most likely to get one.  

 

It's hockey and you never know, BB is a solid young player that most teams would love to have - his peak could be white hot (40/50 goals), - unlikely he gets worse that's for sure.  He's 1-3 years away from his prime starting....

 

edit:  For the record im not at all in favour for trading him.   Especially for picks that's idiotic.   He's got all the tools to be a perrenial 30 goal scorer.  Second fastest to 50 on the club right?  Calder finalist.  A lot of HHOFers starting their careers slow, very few started like Gretzky, Lemuiex, Selanne, Crosby, Oveckin and McDavid.  Thornton got like 7 points his first year and was ridiculed heavily for it, even punished by his team to do drills on his own.  Rocket was plagued with injuries his first few years (just like BB).   Lafluer often looked lost his first three seasons.   What EP, BB and QH have done isn't the norm at all - yet here are discussing his trade value yet again.  I get we need solid top four D.   Myers has helped with this - Edler and Tanev are both playing more games then we've seen in a long time.   Stetcher plays there we lose.   

 

OJ, Woo, Tryamkin, Rathbone, Rafferty (AHL All-Star) etc... have to think one of those guy will at least make the top four ... possible two.   They definitely give the bottom pairings and 7th guy loads of options the next 5-15 years.  Brisbois too. 

Edited March 6, 2020 by IBatch

[Alflives]

OP should make a couple suggestions of young D he thinks Demko and Bess are worth. @NorthWestNuck

[J.I.A.H.N]

Here is why I think Boeser's value of return is not as great as what people might think

 

IMO 1st line wingers....not elite 1st wingers, but a regular 1st winger, has a value under a 2nd line center in most cases...

 

Take in case Boeser vs Horvat...……...Horvat has greater value, and so would 50% of NHL 2nd line centers

 

IMO, this applies the same to Dmen, where #1 Dmen (all of them) are not on the table, and #2's are still very hard to come by

 

Take in point that before we had Hughes, we have never had one.....ever! So in some of teams, their best Dman is really a #2

 

Now, the reason, so many positions are disqualified when discussing moving a #1 winger is that they are not so hard to find

 

Not easy, but a lot easier to find than a #1 or 2 center or a #1 or 2 Dman.

 

To prove my point...…..people are suggesting Dumba, and IMO, that is because, there just are not that many, that may be available

 

Keep in mind that Dumba's value is down right now, because of his recent injury...……...

 

not to say Boeser could not get a Dumba, but it may cost more than one would think

 

We will be deep at RW in a couple of years, but we still are trying to find out what we actually have at RHD, so I am not ready to trade Boeser

 

Maybe some day...…….but not unless something really big shows up

 

I hope they re-sign Toffoli, I love his fight, as well as his skill...……..Our RW depth will be incredible

 

Toffoli, Boeser, Virtanen, Podkolzin, Lind and MacEwen…………...within 1 year, I think you have 3 1st line RW's

 

Maybe then you move 1 for a LW, but maybe you move Virtanen to LW and your problem is solved

 

Really a nice problem to have...……….maybe then you move one of them not named Podkolzin for a Dman

 

But not before we see what our Defense looks like

[qwijibo]

10 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

Here is why I think Boeser's value of return is not as great as what people might think

 

IMO 1st line wingers....not elite 1st wingers, but a regular 1st winger, has a value under a 2nd line center in most cases...

 

Take in case Boeser vs Horvat...……...Horvat has greater value, and so would 50% of NHL 2nd line centers

 

IMO, this applies the same to Dmen, where #1 Dmen (all of them) are not on the table, and #2's are still very hard to come by

 

Take in point that before we had Hughes, we have never had one.....ever! So in some of teams, their best Dman is really a #2

 

Now, the reason, so many positions are disqualified when discussing moving a #1 winger is that they are not so hard to find

 

Not easy, but a lot easier to find than a #1 or 2 center or a #1 or 2 Dman.

 

To prove my point...…..people are suggesting Dumba, and IMO, that is because, there just are not that many, that may be available

 

Keep in mind that Dumba's value is down right now, because of his recent injury...……...

 

not to say Boeser could not get a Dumba, but it may cost more than one would think

 

We will be deep at RW in a couple of years, but we still are trying to find out what we actually have at RHD, so I am not ready to trade Boeser

 

Maybe some day...…….but not unless something really big shows up

 

I hope they re-sign Toffoli, I love his fight, as well as his skill...……..Our RW depth will be incredible

 

Toffoli, Boeser, Virtanen, Podkolzin, Lind and MacEwen…………...within 1 year, I think you have 3 1st line RW's

 

Maybe then you move 1 for a LW, but maybe you move Virtanen to LW and your problem is solved

 

Really a nice problem to have...……….maybe then you move one of them not named Podkolzin for a Dman

 

But not before we see what our Defense looks like

You nailed the difference in value for different positions.  People often overlook this aspect despite it being a huge consideration 

[NorthWestNuck]

Yeah, good points all.

 

i was thinking more of a Demko AND Boeser to capitalize returns. Would that be worth a Parayko/Proverov? More (Heiskenan/Makar like)? or less (Healthy Ryan Murray type)?

[qwijibo]

4 minutes ago, NorthWestNuck said:

Yeah, good points all.

 

i was thinking more of a Demko AND Boeser to capitalize returns. Would that be worth a Parayko/Proverov? More (Heiskenan/Makar like)? or less (Healthy Ryan Murray type)?

Demko adds very little value right now. He’s a back up goalie that is expansion draft eligible.  The Ryan Murray suggestion is likely the closest to realistic. 

[mll]

2 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

Here is why I think Boeser's value of return is not as great as what people might think

 

IMO 1st line wingers....not elite 1st wingers, but a regular 1st winger, has a value under a 2nd line center in most cases...

 

Take in case Boeser vs Horvat...……...Horvat has greater value, and so would 50% of NHL 2nd line centers

 

IMO, this applies the same to Dmen, where #1 Dmen (all of them) are not on the table, and #2's are still very hard to come by

 

Take in point that before we had Hughes, we have never had one.....ever! So in some of teams, their best Dman is really a #2

 

Now, the reason, so many positions are disqualified when discussing moving a #1 winger is that they are not so hard to find

 

Not easy, but a lot easier to find than a #1 or 2 center or a #1 or 2 Dman.

 

To prove my point...…..people are suggesting Dumba, and IMO, that is because, there just are not that many, that may be available

 

Keep in mind that Dumba's value is down right now, because of his recent injury...……...

 

not to say Boeser could not get a Dumba, but it may cost more than one would think

 

We will be deep at RW in a couple of years, but we still are trying to find out what we actually have at RHD, so I am not ready to trade Boeser

 

Maybe some day...…….but not unless something really big shows up

 

I hope they re-sign Toffoli, I love his fight, as well as his skill...……..Our RW depth will be incredible

 

Toffoli, Boeser, Virtanen, Podkolzin, Lind and MacEwen…………...within 1 year, I think you have 3 1st line RW's

 

Maybe then you move 1 for a LW, but maybe you move Virtanen to LW and your problem is solved

 

Really a nice problem to have...……….maybe then you move one of them not named Podkolzin for a Dman

 

But not before we see what our Defense looks like

 

Need to also take into account the need of the other team.  There's a GM at the other side of the trade that is also looking to improve his team.

Boeser for Dumba ignores the Wild's need.  Despite Dumba struggling Guerin is looking to get a C1 in return or a C2 plus a pretty significant add.  

 

They are so desperate for top-6 Cs that they are playing Galchenyuk at C - his past teams think he's not a C but a winger.  Guerin and himself thinks he's a winger yet they have him at C because otherwise it's Kunin - another winger that has to play C.  Moving Dumba for a C should make them better.  Moving him for a winger is more likely to weaken them while wasting one of their best trade chips.

 

[komodo0921]

Darnell Nurse?

[Lazurus]

On 3/6/2020 at 2:15 PM, IBatch said:

OJ, Woo, Tryamkin, Rathbone, Rafferty (AHL All-Star) etc... have to think one of those guy will at least make the top four ... possible two.   They definitely give the bottom pairings and 7th guy loads of options the next 5-15 years.  Brisbois too.

Regardless of the skill level of a player if the team is bad they can be put into a top 4 spot, remember Gudbranson and Pouliot.

That year Tryamkin outshone them both but he was only once leaned on heavy and he did great, his reward was getting 11 minutes of icetime the next game.

 

If the coach or GM want a player to be there that is the assignment. After all the hype about Juolevi why do you think they haven't had him play even one NHL game? He hasn't been hurt all the time. It is because they kept saying he was the next top two defenseman so they wait hoping he improves enough to warrant a chance.

 

It would be nice to see Rafferty but then top AHL players haven't worked out so well here, still until he proves otherwise he is a top prospect and that has marketing value.

 

When Tryamkin come back they have him, Hughes, Myers and Edler or Tanev or a trade for a top guy if necessary IF those players don't get a sniff.

 

The other thing is all those except Tryamkin are good trade bait or A & B prospects that can be packaged to move Eriksson, Baertschi, or Sutter to make enough cap space.

 

Demko and Boeser, look to Buffalo, go for Ristolianen and a pick or New Jersey Devils for a 1rst (Vancouver's) and Boqvist, maybe they even take Eriksson if the Canucks throw in Juolevi. That would be a good deal for them, very good and it would free up cap for the Canucks to re-sign players.

[IBatch]

29 minutes ago, Lazurus said:

Regardless of the skill level of a player if the team is bad they can be put into a top 4 spot, remember Gudbranson and Pouliot.

That year Tryamkin outshone them both but he was only once leaned on heavy and he did great, his reward was getting 11 minutes of icetime the next game.

 

If the coach or GM want a player to be there that is the assignment. After all the hype about Juolevi why do you think they haven't had him play even one NHL game? He hasn't been hurt all the time. It is because they kept saying he was the next top two defenseman so they wait hoping he improves enough to warrant a chance.

 

It would be nice to see Rafferty but then top AHL players haven't worked out so well here, still until he proves otherwise he is a top prospect and that has marketing value.

 

When Tryamkin come back they have him, Hughes, Myers and Edler or Tanev or a trade for a top guy if necessary IF those players don't get a sniff.

 

The other thing is all those except Tryamkin are good trade bait or A & B prospects that can be packaged to move Eriksson, Baertschi, or Sutter to make enough cap space.

 

Demko and Boeser, look to Buffalo, go for Ristolianen and a pick or New Jersey Devils for a 1rst (Vancouver's) and Boqvist, maybe they even take Eriksson if the Canucks throw in Juolevi. That would be a good deal for them, very good and it would free up cap for the Canucks to re-sign players.

When has JB/management ever said OJ was going to be a top defenseman?  References please.  Maybe the CDC has debated this but I don't recall this other then nice things said about him when he was drafted.

 

Have you watched him play? I have - including live (AHL).  Don't count him out too soon - injuries definitely derailed his development. He's got moves.

 

What top" AHLers are you referring too? Vey (he wasn't) Goldobin? (He wasn't either).   Please explain.  If they are so is Bouchard. 

 

Rafferty IS a top AHLer - we haven't had one in a long time.  Bouchard might be the closest but he's never going to make it.  McEwen might in the bottom six because of his size and intangibles. 

 

Your dreaming if you think Tryamkin is going to move Sutter or Bear.  Delusional if you think he'd move LE.   He hasn't played here for a while.  And if he's good enough we should keep him.  Same with McEwen.  Same with OJ.  They have to prove they can play in this league first.

 

Demko and BB for Risto? What a train wreck for us. No thanks.  No thanks for Boqvist we don't need another shrimp thanks.  Now if you were talking AHL star Bouchard from EDM I'd get behind that but no way they are trading him for what your offering.  

[IBatch]

23 hours ago, qwijibo said:

Demko adds very little value right now. He’s a back up goalie that is expansion draft eligible.  The Ryan Murray suggestion is likely the closest to realistic. 

Yep.  He's had the reigns for awhile now and really hasn't disappointed- but hasn't come close to finding his inner Roy either.  Or his inner Hammond either (cautionary tale - goalies can be hot and fizzle out once they are signed - it happens regularly enough and GMs know this).    Demko might get us second at best.  We are definitely better off keeping him and developing him more.  MAYBE a huge MAYBE if there was no ED a team would take a flyer at him and trade a first.