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[PGT] Colorado Avalanche at Vancouver Canucks | Mar. 06, 2020

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12 hours ago, SilentSam said:

Tryamkin, Rafferty, OJ, Woo, Breisbois.. I still like Josh Teves..

Not only good players,.  But chemistry between them all quantifies good play.

I really do think Benning will get his jersey hung up in the ring of honour before he retires here.. 

The idea that Tryamkin might return in the near future might be the one explanation as to why the team may have been willing to move Stecher.  I don't buy the Barrie hype / prattle - but a Tryamkin- that can play either side, sure rounds out the group with some serious size, mobility and if he gets any meaner, some intimidation factor.

Still I'd prefer to have kept Stecher around and think I'd rather see him on a pairing with Tryamkin than moved and a Tryamkin/Fanta-Benn combination, but it's about the only thing imo that lends any credence to the possible rumours.

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6 minutes ago, oldnews said:

The idea that Tryamkin might return in the near future might be the one explanation as to why the team may have been willing to move Stecher.  I don't buy the Barrie hype / prattle - but a Tryamkin- that can play either side, sure rounds out the group with some serious size, mobility and if he gets any meaner, some intimidation factor.

Still I'd prefer to have kept Stecher around and think I'd rather see him on a pairing with Tryamkin than moved and a Tryamkin/Fanta-Benn combination, but it's about the only thing imo that lends any credence to the possible rumours.

Hasn’t JB held back some cap room too?  Maybe that’s to fit Tryamkin in?  

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12 minutes ago, oldnews said:

The idea that Tryamkin might return in the near future might be the one explanation as to why the team may have been willing to move Stecher.  I don't buy the Barrie hype / prattle - but a Tryamkin- that can play either side, sure rounds out the group with some serious size, mobility and if he gets any meaner, some intimidation factor.

Still I'd prefer to have kept Stecher around and think I'd rather see him on a pairing with Tryamkin than moved and a Tryamkin/Fanta-Benn combination, but it's about the only thing imo that lends any credence to the possible rumours.

Regardless of Nik’s possible presence with our club in the near future,  Next Season will bring a dramatic change on our D in particular.

I see the need to have Tryamkin, and the timing of having Rafferty and OJ in the D ranks as well.

add or subtract what we will, but I see the untouchables ( if there are any) as Myers, Edler, Hughes and possibly one of Benn Or Fantenburg.

Our D core will become faster, and more physical for it. The addition of Tryamkin and a Rafferty alone could almost increase the physicality on D by 50%.

 

yesterday..

 

https://t.co/3GlsRISiH9

 

 

Edited by SilentSam
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2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

I think you're misleading yourself in believing that utlizing the Horvat line in a matchup role 5 on 5 makes him their best shutdown center - it isn't that simple imo.  What Horvat brings - what his line brings - is not necessarily the premier shutdown presence, but the premier ability to counterpunch - in other words, even if his line is the 2nd best in a pure matchup sense, the fact that they can drive offense, cycle, maintain possession and force the opponent's top lines to defend - that is imo where the real advantage comes in utilizing his line in a matchup role.  Additionally, I think they are a great transition line - that may actually be their greatest strength, particularly when they utilize Virtanen there - that is a bloody hard line to hand with the speed, size and two way abilities of Horvat, Virtanen and Pearson.

 

So my point here is this - don't underplay the importance or effectiveness of the veteran shutdown guys like Sutter and Beagle - who are critically important - as is Motte - and who form, clearly, the team's best pure shutdown presence (as additionally evidenced by the sheer volume of penalty kill they provide).  The reality is that your penalty killers - are always facing the opponent's top threats - at a disadvantage.  If Green believed that Horvat is their best shutdown forward, you'd see him leaning on Horvat as a penalty killer, particularly with leads down the stretch in games.  Horvat is 15th in pk ice time = Miller and Pearson kill more penalties than Horvat, as does LE  - which is not to say he's their 8th best defensive forward, but imo using him in a matchup role - that alone does not indicate he's their premier shutdown forward.

I think Bo’s PK minutes are limited because Green uses him as the matchup/shutdown centre.  Bo’s skating allows him to play all 200 feet against the other teams to centre.  Sutter and Beagle can’t match up over the full 200 feet.  PK is mostly positional and reactive in the neutral zone and our own zone.  Way less skating involved.  That’s IMO why Loui, Sutter, and Beagle get those minutes ahead of Bo.  

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3 hours ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

3 words: Quality of competition. Those stats are meaningless without that context.

3 of the most meaningless words - even among the pseudo 'analytics community'. 

Again - who do you think Beagle and Sutter play against?   Unless you're prepared to post actual qoc numbers, you have no point in posting an allusion to them.  Teams have what people call a 'top 6' - and when you're talking about good teams, both those 'top 6' lines can be lethal - so the pretense that there is such a separation between matchup roles rides on a very thin point.  I'm going to leave it at that because I've already answered this in greater length minutes ago in a post responding to someone else,

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14 hours ago, bad alice french said:

I’ll tell you I am a pretty big Sutter fan but after watching MacEwen play like he did tonight it’s gonna be really tough to let Sutter take that spot in the bottom 6. 
That Gaudette line was 3rd line energy to perfection. 

what's wrong with Sutter?  Injuries aside, he's played very well and even showed spurts of offense when put in that situation.  I love Mac and have been a big advocate of his since the day he signed, but he won't likely slot in ahead of established, experienced guys, imo

 

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3 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

Regardless of Nik’s possible presence with our club in the near future,  Next Season will bring a dramatic change on our D in particular.

I see the need to have Tryamkin, and the timing of having Rafferty and OJ in the D ranks as well.

add or subtract what we will, but I see the untouchables ( if there are any) as Myers, Edler, Hughes and possibly one of Benn Or Fantenburg.

Our D core will become faster, and more physical for it. The addition of Tryamkin and a Rafferty alone could almost increase the physicality on D by 50%.

 

yesterday..

 

https://t.co/3GlsRISiH9

 

 

I see our D next season like this.

Huggy Bear and Tanev

Eddy and Tree

OJ and Myers

Rafferty

Benn

 

Bone is going to push fir a spot too.  IMO, he’s better than Rafferty, Benn, Myers.

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4 minutes ago, oldnews said:

I think you're misleading yourself in believing that utlizing the Horvat line in a matchup role 5 on 5 makes him their best shutdown center - it isn't that simple imo.  What Horvat brings - what his line brings - is not necessarily the premier shutdown presence, but the premier ability to counterpunch - in other words, even if his line is the 2nd best in a pure matchup sense, the fact that they can drive offense, cycle, maintain possession and force the opponent's top lines to defend - that is imo where the real advantage comes in utilizing his line in a matchup role.  Additionally, I think they are a great transition line - that may actually be their greatest strength, particularly when they utilize Virtanen there - that is a bloody hard line to hand with the speed, size and two way abilities of Horvat, Virtanen and Pearson.

 

So my point here is this - don't underplay the importance or effectiveness of the veteran shutdown guys like Sutter and Beagle - who are critically important - as is Motte - and who form, clearly, the team's best pure shutdown presence (as additionally evidenced by the sheer volume of penalty kill they provide).  The reality is that your penalty killers - are always facing the opponent's top threats - at a disadvantage.  If Green believed that Horvat is their best shutdown forward, you'd see him leaning on Horvat as a penalty killer, particularly with leads down the stretch in games.  Horvat is 15th in pk ice time = Miller and Pearson kill more penalties than Horvat, as does LE  - which is not to say he's their 8th best defensive forward, but imo using him in a matchup role - that alone does not indicate he's their premier shutdown forward.

This is what I see too. When we are playing well, we have a balanced attack and we are playing mostly in the O Zone for most of the game. Jake helps Bo's line remain in the O Zone longer. We are on the attack and we aren't hemmed in our own zone for most of the game. The only line that had trouble during this time was Gauds line but they showed last night that they can up their game with MacEwen on it. 

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2 hours ago, EdgarM said:

Thank You for this oldnews because I am growing tired of the excuses as to why Bo has to play with LE and not a legit top 6 offensive forward. We won tonight not because our secondary scoring came from our #2 line but because our #3 line produced. We cannot rely on that on a regular basis. 

Bo is a great faceoff guy but he is not going to take out a bigger stronger top 6 guy. A smaller faster guy, yes he is probably going to do a good job containing. So why is Bo not a main PKer if he is such a "shutdown specialist"? 

I see Miller as a better defensive shutdown guy then Bo actually. 

Bo is being wasted and so is Jake on this team. Bo could contribute so much more offensively when given the right line mates(remember his chemistry with BB?) and Jake could be used way more effectively both offensively and defensively(on the PK). He has great speed and checking ability, a bigger version of Motte. 

If I wanted a good "shutdown" line it would be Sutter, Motte and Lui. 

it raises some interesting points but I don't necessarily agree with you entirely here.

 

The team is using Horvat's line in this way for a number of reasons imo - one of them being to help shelter Gaudette's line, another being to help provide the best opportunities for the top line, and additionally, because Horvat's line can force an opponent's top line to defend - in ways a lot of top lines are not necessarily built to.

 

Personally, I'd probably prefer to move Gaudette to wing at this point and utilize a different kind of 'bottom 6' - with Sutter centering the 3rd line.   Sutter is a better two way player than he gets credit for - he can certainly provide as much counterpunch and secondary scoring as a line centered by Gaudette, while not needing to be sheltered (in fact in hard minutes) particularly if you give him a winger like Gaudette (and a two way guy on the other wing).   I think the team might be stronger and more balanced that way - but I do see the point in loading up a shutdown line like Beagle/Sutter/Motte and then using Horvat's in a two way matchup role - those are two difficult lines for an opponent's top 6 to deal with.   But imo it still leaves Gaudette relatively exposed - and particularly on the road where the opposing coach has the last change - I'm not at all surprised that the team struggles far more on the road than they do at home (and even moreso when they're without Markstrom)....

 

Where I do agree is in the point of moving Virtanen up to Horvat's line - I think Virtanen's defensive game is generally under-rated around here (although less so than previously - people are starting to see his value - as a two way player).  I'm not sure that line gives up much if anything defensively with Virtanen up there - I think the point of using Virtanen elsewhere is more for balance than it is a 'heirarchy' - and really Virtanen is playing more minutes than LE on a nightly basis - so whether you see him on the "2nd line" or not, he's above Eriksson in the 'pecking' order regardless.

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3 hours ago, EdgarM said:

Thank You for this oldnews because I am growing tired of the excuses as to why Bo has to play with LE and not a legit top 6 offensive forward. We won tonight not because our secondary scoring came from our #2 line but because our #3 line produced. We cannot rely on that on a regular basis. 

Bo is a great faceoff guy but he is not going to take out a bigger stronger top 6 guy. A smaller faster guy, yes he is probably going to do a good job containing. So why is Bo not a main PKer if he is such a "shutdown specialist"? 

I see Miller as a better defensive shutdown guy then Bo actually. 

Bo is being wasted and so is Jake on this team. Bo could contribute so much more offensively when given the right line mates(remember his chemistry with BB?) and Jake could be used way more effectively both offensively and defensively(on the PK). He has great speed and checking ability, a bigger version of Motte. 

If I wanted a good "shutdown" line it would be Sutter, Motte and Lui. 

We beat the Avs because our goalie played way better than their’s did.  And Demko was just okay.  Their goalie was terrible.  

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1 minute ago, Alflives said:

We beat the Avs because our goalie played way better than their’s did.  And Demko was just okay.  Their goalie was terrible.  

We scored more then 2 goals for a change Alf and it didn't all come from the top line. Just like when we had the Sedins, we NEED SECONDARY SCORING. 

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10 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

This is what I see too. When we are playing well, we have a balanced attack and we are playing mostly in the O Zone for most of the game. Jake helps Bo's line remain in the O Zone longer. We are on the attack and we aren't hemmed in our own zone for most of the game. The only line that had trouble during this time was Gauds line but they showed last night that they can up their game with MacEwen on it. 

Yeah - Gaudette is clearly being developed as a center at the NHL level at this point - he's not entirely ready, he struggles to defend, to win draws - but that line is also capable of turning the tables and giving you secondary scoring, so they live with the vulnerabilities without the puck.  What he needs are two solid defensive/two way wingers - and when he has that - his line is pretty effective - whether it's been with Virtanen and Roussel or as last night, with Mac and AR.

I think the fact that MacEwen is a center/winger, or has some of that 'natural center' defensive game in his winger game = helps Gaudette - as does his heaviness and agressiveness - an area where Gaudette can be a bit exposed, particularly down low (although I think Gaudette plays a bit bigger than his size).  

 

The bottom line for me - is that the team has built a fairly impressive amount of depth - because really - when you have so many key young talents in your lineup that are still developing - EP, Hughes, Gaudette, Boeser - and to face as many forward injuries as they have this year - to still keep pace is somewhat remarkable, and maybe a bit lost in the recent slide which has everyone, understandably, so nervous.  But to lose so many forwards this year = Boeser, Ferland, Beagle, Sutter, Motte, Roussel, Leivo - most of whom overlap and bring similar two way grit and shutdown elements to the lineup - but still be able to recall guys like MacEwen - I tend to look on the 'bright side' of struggles and that imo indicates a pretty resilient group (you pretty much have to expect a 4 game slide at some point of the season from almost any team).  I think they still have what it takes to turn that on it's head and make a push.

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39 minutes ago, xereau said:

NM is more like Forsberg than Dionne heh.

That seems a closer comparison. NM might even be meaner.  Reminds me a bit of Bert, but an even better skater.  Man he can play.

 

Not sure if it is feasible, but given how often he (and other Avs) have that move where they skate into the o-zone, then do a quick circle against the flow, it would be sweet to see someone like Jake come flying in and crush NM in the middle of the spin move.  What a crowd pleaser that would be.

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1 minute ago, Kragar said:

That seems a closer comparison. NM might even be meaner.  Reminds me a bit of Bert, but an even better skater.  Man he can play.

 

Not sure if it is feasible, but given how often he (and other Avs) have that move where they skate into the o-zone, then do a quick circle against the flow, it would be sweet to see someone like Jake come flying in and crush NM in the middle of the spin move.  What a crowd pleaser that would be.

Forsberg was beastly mean.

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3 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Yeah - Gaudette is clearly being developed as a center at the NHL level at this point - he's not entirely ready, he struggles to defend, to win draws - but that line is also capable of turning the tables and giving you secondary scoring, so they live with the vulnerabilities without the puck.  What he needs are two solid defensive/two way wingers - and when he has that - his line is pretty effective - whether it's been with Virtanen and Roussel or as last night, with Mac and AR.

I think the fact that MacEwen is a center/winger, or has some of that 'natural center' defensive game in his winger game = helps Gaudette - as does his heaviness and agressiveness - an area where Gaudette can be a bit exposed, particularly down low (although I think Gaudette plays a bit bigger than his size).  

 

The bottom line for me - is that the team has built a fairly impressive amount of depth - because really - when you have so many key young talents in your lineup that are still developing - EP, Hughes, Gaudette, Boeser - and to face as many forward injuries as they have this year - to still keep pace is somewhat remarkable, and maybe a bit lost in the recent slide which has everyone, understandably, so nervous.  But to lose so many forwards this year = Boeser, Ferland, Beagle, Sutter, Motte, Roussel, Leivo - most of whom overlap and bring similar two way grit and shutdown elements to the lineup - but still be able to recall guys like MacEwen - I tend to look on the 'bright side' of struggles and that imo indicates a pretty resilient group (you pretty much have to expect a 4 game slide at some point of the season from almost any team).  I think they still have what it takes to turn that on it's head and make a push.

I really like Gaud, but think he’s too light in the bottom to really be effective along the walls, especially in his own zone.  I like him in space on offence though.  

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35 minutes ago, oldnews said:

I think you're misleading yourself in believing that utlizing the Horvat line in a matchup role 5 on 5 makes him their best shutdown center - it isn't that simple imo.  What Horvat brings - what his line brings - is not necessarily the premier shutdown presence, but the premier ability to counterpunch - in other words, even if his line is the 2nd best in a pure matchup sense, the fact that they can drive offense, cycle, maintain possession and force the opponent's top lines to defend - that is imo where the real advantage comes in utilizing his line in a matchup role.  Additionally, I think they are a great transition line - that may actually be their greatest strength, particularly when they utilize Virtanen there - that is a bloody hard line to hand with the speed, size and two way abilities of Horvat, Virtanen and Pearson.

 

So my point here is this - don't underplay the importance or effectiveness of the veteran shutdown guys like Sutter and Beagle - who are critically important - as is Motte - and who form, clearly, the team's best pure shutdown presence (as additionally evidenced by the sheer volume of penalty kill they provide).  The reality is that your penalty killers - are always facing the opponent's top threats - at a disadvantage.  If Green believed that Horvat is their best shutdown forward, you'd see him leaning on Horvat as a penalty killer, particularly with leads down the stretch in games.  Horvat is 15th in pk ice time = Miller and Pearson kill more penalties than Horvat, as does LE  - which is not to say he's their 8th best defensive forward, but imo using him in a matchup role - that alone does not indicate he's their premier shutdown forward.

I was just saying those stats aren’t good, to the fact of the NHL isn’t full of people the same skill.

The people who defend the competition that is more skill will more likely be the once with the worst stats and comparing players based of that seem illogical. I don’t think they’re a premier shutdown line I didn’t say they where a premier shutdown line. I was in general saying those statistics SUCK.

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35 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

Regardless of Nik’s possible presence with our club in the near future,  Next Season will bring a dramatic change on our D in particular.

I see the need to have Tryamkin, and the timing of having Rafferty and OJ in the D ranks as well.

add or subtract what we will, but I see the untouchables ( if there are any) as Myers, Edler, Hughes and possibly one of Benn Or Fantenburg.

Our D core will become faster, and more physical for it. The addition of Tryamkin and a Rafferty alone could almost increase the physicality on D by 50%.

 

yesterday..

 

https://t.co/3GlsRISiH9

 

 

I see both Benn and Fantenburg as pure 'placeholders' although I have been really impressed with Fantenburg this year and if he were a longer term piece, there'd be no real problem there imo - although the wealth of emerging younger D may preclude his future here.

 

I think that Tryamkin and Juolevi probably have a lot to say about who's in the top 6 next year - great problems to have when there remains a handful of good young D prospects beyond them.

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