[Discussion] Are You Afraid If They Blow It Up? Should They?

[Lazurus]

Might as well have this thought expressed.

 

The team is a mess off the ice and a bit on the ice too.

 

Handcuffed with declining players with huge contracts with term and clauses.

Even though there is Horvat, Boeser, Hughes and Petersson that is not enough.

The cap situation is horrible even if the team had 20 million to spend they are in deep in another season.

The Seattle expansion is a great time if the team has cap space to trade for good players and if they have protection space.

After 6 years of whatever this group is struggling to make the playoffs, Markstrom is the primary reason they are even close but he was hiding a bunch of other problems by stealing so many games.

 

Other teams have rebuilt their prospect pools, have doubled or tripled their 1rst and 2nd round picks and been very entertaining and competitive in less than two years so it is not impossible.

 

Maybe they jettison Eriksson, Sutter, Beagle, Ferland (LTIR), Roussel and Baertschi. Maybe even Boeser. They will lose prospects hopefully "B" prospects to do this and draft picks, again hopefully only 3rds and up but they need to get a handle on the cap and open up roster spots for YOUNG players

 

Moving those players gives the Canucks over 33 million in cap space and one extra protection spot maybe two if Boeser moves.

For most of these moves it would cost the Canucks but a Boeser move could be a positive, he has very good marketability and reputation as a shooter, he would fit well with Eichel, in Minnesota or with New Jersey at least I think those teams would have the most to offer in return picks, prospects or both. Minnesota might want a center but that is not all they need, they are an team full of aging stars. To think that they would only trade for only one player is not reasonable, teams need many positons or to upgrade.

 

There will be some good UFA's available, younger or just fill ins for a season without clauses so they could be dealt at the TDL.

 

Sutter, Roussel, Baertschi and Beagle would not take much to move, maybe even just retention. Packaging up some of these players using retention and "B" prospects could get draft picks back.

 

The story here is rebuilding through the draft and doing it by increasing the number of 1rst round draft picks as each one equals a year of rebuilding.

 

This is not a total blowing up either but definitely shedding salary and setting up for two years from now as the target to not only try but succeed in getting to the playoffs by then Petersson and Hughes will have it figured out Horvat will be the new Miller and Miller and Pearson will be near the end of their prime but still effective, Gaudette will be the third line center, the team will know if Hoglander and what's left of the prospects can play in the NHL.

 

Playing lots of young guys hasn't killed Columbus, Colorado or the New York Rangers

 

IMO and I agree opinions are like A**h*s, everyone has one, but IF this happened and there was a solid statement like "we are going for the cup" or "in two years the team is not just a contender for a playoff spot" 

 

Okay, burn me, I know no topic that has anything to do with change is not rejected and ridiculed, but it is an opinion and now step up the "should not be thread", "you are a hater", "you are just trolling", "dimwit","you know nothing", "you are not a fan", the posters that actually believe everything is wonderful, perfect and planning the parade(s).

 

But think on it, IF they did, how bad could it be? Another 3 years?

Edited March 9, 2020 by Lazurus

[joe-max]

I know somebody who wouldn't like it...

[Alflives]

Here is what happens after this season’s failure to make the playoffs:

Green is fired. 

We win the draft lottery, and select Lafreniere.

Demko is traded at the draft for a second.

Loui retires.

Sutter, Baer are traded, but it costs us two prospects to dump their contracts.

We resign Marky, Tanev, Tofu, and our RFAs, except Stecher.

Tryamkin signs 

Hoglander signs

Bracket signs to stay on too.  

Blue and Green Kool-Aide becomes the number one sellers in Van City.

 

We all die from Coronavirus.  

 

[RonMexico]

Haha winning because Markstrom was covering up all the problems.

 

Losing sure does bring out the crazy.

[Tre Mac]

Honestly an organizational overhaul is the one and only positive if they choke and miss the playoffs, rather they kept Green and fired everyone else tbh but if they all have to go so be it, as long as Benning is the first to get the pink slip(here comes more confused emojis!@!@!@@@!!!!).

[Darius]

1 hour ago, Lazurus said:

 

 

Other teams have rebuilt their prospect pools, have doubled or tripled their 1rst and 2nd round picks and been very entertaining and competitive in less than two years so it is not impossible.

 

 

 

Just curious to know which teams have rebuilt their prospect pools (with a respected outcome that is) multiplied their first and second rounders and put a competitive team on the ice in less than two years...

 

 

[86Viking]

Some bold moves would be:

 

Trade Brock and Stecher to Minny for Dumba.

 

Keep Toffoli(5-6m) around to take Brock's spot.

 

Re-sign Tanev or let him walk and try to Sign Barrie...had to add it as JB has liked him in the past

 

Dump wasted cap hits in: LoserSSon(6m), Sutter(4+m), Sven(3+m). Yes have to add assets to clear that out but thats near 13.5m. That's Marky and Barrie potentially

 

Fire the Assistant coaches and bring in a solid veteran D coach who has had success. Find a new PP coach and move on from Newell Brown

 

JB drops GM title, Brackett gets the big promotion, JB remains involved with scouting. 

 

 

[RonMexico]

22 minutes ago, Canuckster86 said:

Some bold moves would be:

 

Trade Brock and Stecher to Minny for Dumba.

 

Keep Toffoli(5-6m) around to take Brock's spot.

 

Re-sign Tanev or let him walk and try to Sign Barrie...had to add it as JB has liked him in the past

 

Dump wasted cap hits in: LoserSSon(6m), Sutter(4+m), Sven(3+m). Yes have to add assets to clear that out but thats near 13.5m. That's Marky and Barrie potentially

 

Fire the Assistant coaches and bring in a solid veteran D coach who has had success. Find a new PP coach and move on from Newell Brown

 

JB drops GM title, Brackett gets the big promotion, JB remains involved with scouting. 

 

 

 

Brackett owes JB. When he took over as GM he could have easily fired the whole scouting staff and started over. He kept many guys around and the same crew that drafted many losers started drafting winners. I give JB the credit for the turn around in the scouting. You don't keep the same people and magically get better results unless the guy steering the ship knows what he is doing. Brackett just fed of the leadership provided.

[Lazurus]

19 minutes ago, Darius said:

 

Just curious to know which teams have rebuilt their prospect pools (with a respected outcome that is) multiplied their first and second rounders and put a competitive team on the ice in less than two years...

 

 

NYR, NJD, Ottawa, Columbus these teams are just as, or more competitive than the Canucks. These teams traded away a lot or most of their prospects for playoff runs and then traded away most of their star players to rebuild.

Ottawa plays in a tougher division than the Canucks and they are only 7 wins behind, Columbus traded the farm for last year's run and their pool is only diminished because most of their prospects play in the NHL already, the Rangers, again in a tougher division and ahead of the Canucks with more prospects and picks to boot, New Jersey, only 8 points behind, in that division mostly because Schnieder collapsed, really bad goal tending. Some of those team have almost 60% more players 25 and under that made the team at the start of the season. The Canucks have mostly the same prospects as last year and the year before, same players.

 

The thing is this group, as good as they might be or not, is a one off because of what could be disastrous in the off season and next year. Things not taken into account are just how good Markstrom has been, how bad the division is and how there really isn't the depth of defense to carry them very far.

 

The team has two wins and the floor drops out below them, as least in the fans eyes, only because the focus has been one game at a time and not the whole picture.

 

This type of gratification shows just how little understanding some fans have, "I happy today, who cares about tomorrow", they lose and it's "Fire him, trade him, he is a bum, what a lousy call" all that about one game. When the media start talking about cap problems they are really big cap problems and the cap runs the league.

 

IMO some of the problems just cannot be overcome without "pain". Losing players, missing draft picks, spending money to correct errors.

 

Just for $&!#s and giggles - The Canuck current salary cap with all the NHL player contracts is over what is estimated for next year's ceiling and that is without the other deductions yet to come. With every thing 90 million.

 

 

[Lazurus]

1 hour ago, RonMexico said:

Haha winning because Markstrom was covering up all the problems.

 

Losing sure does bring out the crazy.

I agree, the wagon jumpers are always first change sides. But Markstrom was so good some media guys were talking about MVP voting.

Sort of like the common saying is that the goalie is the best penalty killer, well it kind of goes the same way, stop 40 shots a game 8 or 9 times a year and win some of those games where the team only scores because they got more power plays.

 

He wasn't covering up ALL the problems but he reduced the focus on them and in some cases they got ignored.

 

 

[Darius]

3 minutes ago, Lazurus said:

NYR, NJD, Ottawa, Columbus these teams are just as, or more competitive than the Canucks. These teams traded away a lot or most of their prospects for playoff runs and then traded away most of their star players to rebuild.

Ottawa plays in a tougher division than the Canucks and they are only 7 wins behind, Columbus traded the farm for last year's run and their pool is only diminished because most of their prospects play in the NHL already, the Rangers, again in a tougher division and ahead of the Canucks with more prospects and picks to boot, New Jersey, only 8 points behind, in that division mostly because Schnieder collapsed, really bad goal tending. Some of those team have almost 60% more players 25 and under that made the team at the start of the season. The Canucks have mostly the same prospects as last year and the year before, same players.

 

i think you are manipulating  what "competitive" means here.  I dont think you can name any teams that have restocked a prospect pool, hoarded a bunch of first rounders, and put a good team on the ice within a two year period. 

 

Columbus did trade the farm last year - if benning did that you would be all over him.

 

Ottawa "only 7 points behind"  with a game in hand to boot.  With Parity 7 points could be the difference between first and 6th....

 

NJ 8 points behind...lol....have you noticed how many times they have won the lottery and they still cant get it together...and you bring them up as an example? 

 

Come on....you talk down to fans because "they dont understand the big picture"....yet your examples dont meet your criteria....

 

 

 

[Lazurus]

13 minutes ago, Darius said:

i think you are manipulating  what "competitive" means here.  I dont think you can name any teams that have restocked a prospect pool, hoarded a bunch of first rounders, and put a good team on the ice within a two year period. 

 

Columbus did trade the farm last year - if benning did that you would be all over him.

 

Ottawa "only 7 points behind"  with a game in hand to boot.  With Parity 7 points could be the difference between first and 6th....

 

NJ 8 points behind...lol....have you noticed how many times they have won the lottery and they still cant get it together...and you bring them up as an example? 

 

Come on....you talk down to fans because "they dont understand the big picture"....yet your examples dont meet your criteria....

 

 

 

All I can say is look at their rosters and prospect pools over the last 2 years.

 

As far as competitive, I use Benning's interpretation over the last 4 years

 

Benning trading away the farm, Columbus did that when they had a very good team and it hasn't hurt them too much, Benning did trade away the team's only A center prospect. Can't get too upset because there is a chance it might take that to improve the team.

 

And with all the problems, contract, coaches, players I do blame the one person in charge, too many things wrong to have that many bad people running things and if that is the case then the guy that hired all them is flawed.

 

As far as "big picture" how many fans or threads are about the financial side of the game unless it is about one player or contract? How many even bother to go to the end of the season, win or lose. It isn't just Tanev leaving it is his replacement, the cap hit, now the expansion draft, and it isn't just him. Toffoli, as much as fans like him even Benning talks around the word rental. What it cost today can come back to haunt the Canucks and the errors added up and didn't go away.

 

So let's say the Canucks make the playoffs, yaaaa, then what? They are not winning the cup this year, they would need the hockey gods to make them invulnerable to injury, illness and grant them all with added stamina and miraculous healing powers.

 

Just pointing out that the season will end and looking ahead is not a bad thing. Look at what is and what is needed.

 

BTW the post is not targeting any particular people, the subject just didn't exist in a single thread and it is unique in that it about a possible blowing up of the team and fans reactions

Edited March 9, 2020 by Lazurus

[Dekey Pete]

We just need a big ol win streak.  We've done enough losing for a while now.   Cmon boys make it happen!

[Nucker 67]

They don't need to tear it down, but there are a few players that need to be moved. Who knows whatnext year will bring. Maybe Tryamkin comes back. Maybe Hoglander makes the team out of camp. Maybe Boeser and/or Stecher is traded. Maybe Goldobin comes to camp a different player. Maybe they get a no-nonsense coach who's won before. The way I see it, this team is young, and inexperienced. They need someone who's been there, done that, to show them the way. They've got the talent, now they need a road map to the Cup.

[86Viking]

18 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

They don't need to tear it down, but there are a few players that need to be moved. Who knows whatnext year will bring. Maybe Tryamkin comes back. Maybe Hoglander makes the team out of camp. Maybe Boeser and/or Stecher is traded. Maybe Goldobin comes to camp a different player. Maybe they get a no-nonsense coach who's won before. The way I see it, this team is young, and inexperienced. They need someone who's been there, done that, to show them the way. They've got the talent, now they need a road map to the Cup.

Can't see Goldobin being retained by the Canucks. Would love to see Gallant on the coaching staff, could see Seattle signing him tho. He won't take an Associate Coach position I don't think so would have to Fire Green which I don't know if we will do 

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, Canuckster86 said:

Some bold moves would be:

 

Trade Brock and Stecher to Minny for Dumba.

 

Keep Toffoli(5-6m) around to take Brock's spot.

 

Re-sign Tanev or let him walk and try to Sign Barrie...had to add it as JB has liked him in the past

 

Dump wasted cap hits in: LoserSSon(6m), Sutter(4+m), Sven(3+m). Yes have to add assets to clear that out but thats near 13.5m. That's Marky and Barrie potentially

 

Fire the Assistant coaches and bring in a solid veteran D coach who has had success. Find a new PP coach and move on from Newell Brown

 

JB drops GM title, Brackett gets the big promotion, JB remains involved with scouting. 

 

 

Rather have Risto over Dumbo, but the rest is okay. 

[Industrious1]

Markstrom goes down and now we need to rebuild?

 

I appreciate the topic from a debate point of view...but this isn't going to happen.  You may get some coaching changes (not necessarily Green) but i'm pretty sure this is what we are going to rolling with for the next few years.

 

 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, Industrious1 said:

Markstrom goes down and now we need to rebuild?

 

I appreciate the topic from a debate point of view...but this isn't going to happen.  You may get some coaching changes (not necessarily Green) but i'm pretty sure this is what we are going to rolling with for the next few years.

 

 

110% for sure Green is gone if we miss the playoffs.  He might be gone even if we make it.  

[Nucker 67]

1 hour ago, Canuckster86 said:

Can't see Goldobin being retained by the Canucks. Would love to see Gallant on the coaching staff, could see Seattle signing him tho. He won't take an Associate Coach position I don't think so would have to Fire Green which I don't know if we will do 

I'd like to get Gallant too, I don't care why he was let go in Vegas. He got that band of misfits to the Cup Finals in Year 1.  Green might be a very good development coach, but the Canucks need to get to the next level.

Edited March 10, 2020 by NUCKER67

[the grinder]

 

5 hours ago, Lazurus said:

Might as well have this thought expressed.

 

The team is a mess off the ice and a bit on the ice too.

 

Handcuffed with declining players with huge contracts with term and clauses.

Even though there is Horvat, Boeser, Hughes and Petersson that is not enough.

The cap situation is horrible even if the team had 20 million to spend they are in deep in another season.

The Seattle expansion is a great time if the team has cap space to trade for good players and if they have protection space.

After 6 years of whatever this group is struggling to make the playoffs, Markstrom is the primary reason they are even close but he was hiding a bunch of other problems by stealing so many games.

 

Other teams have rebuilt their prospect pools, have doubled or tripled their 1rst and 2nd round picks and been very entertaining and competitive in less than two years so it is not impossible.

 

Maybe they jettison Eriksson, Sutter, Beagle, Ferland (LTIR), Roussel and Baertschi. Maybe even Boeser. They will lose prospects hopefully "B" prospects to do this and draft picks, again hopefully only 3rds and up but they need to get a handle on the cap and open up roster spots for YOUNG players

 

Moving those players gives the Canucks over 33 million in cap space and one extra protection spot maybe two if Boeser moves.

For most of these moves it would cost the Canucks but a Boeser move could be a positive, he has very good marketability and reputation as a shooter, he would fit well with Eichel, in Minnesota or with New Jersey at least I think those teams would have the most to offer in return picks, prospects or both. Minnesota might want a center but that is not all they need, they are an team full of aging stars. To think that they would only trade for only one player is not reasonable, teams need many positons or to upgrade.

 

There will be some good UFA's available, younger or just fill ins for a season without clauses so they could be dealt at the TDL.

 

Sutter, Roussel, Baertschi and Beagle would not take much to move, maybe even just retention. Packaging up some of these players using retention and "B" prospects could get draft picks back.

 

The story here is rebuilding through the draft and doing it by increasing the number of 1rst round draft picks as each one equals a year of rebuilding.

 

This is not a total blowing up either but definitely shedding salary and setting up for two years from now as the target to not only try but succeed in getting to the playoffs by then Petersson and Hughes will have it figured out Horvat will be the new Miller and Miller and Pearson will be near the end of their prime but still effective, Gaudette will be the third line center, the team will know if Hoglander and what's left of the prospects can play in the NHL.

 

Playing lots of young guys hasn't killed Columbus, Colorado or the New York Rangers

 

IMO and I agree opinions are like A**h*s, everyone has one, but IF this happened and there was a solid statement like "we are going for the cup" or "in two years the team is not just a contender for a playoff spot" 

 

Okay, burn me, I know no topic that has anything to do with change is not rejected and ridiculed, but it is an opinion and now step up the "should not be thread", "you are a hater", "you are just trolling", "dimwit","you know nothing", "you are not a fan", the posters that actually believe everything is wonderful, perfect and planning the parade(s).

 

But think on it, IF they did, how bad could it be? Another 3 years?

blow what up  a few support players that will be all phased out in 2 years  and be replaced with young players.. didn't you listen to gmjb   7 young players will be playing on the roster in the next 2 years  ,  sutter rousell beagle Eriksson baer edler benn will all be gone  , hmmm 7 vets   ,  besides that  what 7 young players are ready to take those roles right now ?     rafferty bailey lind  and joulevi ??   

Edited March 10, 2020 by the grinder