NHL's "Super 16" goaltender list has Markstrom at 13

[IBatch]

11 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah, Glenn Anderson took a while to get in because some people didn't like him personally but I don't care if a guy is good at making friends.  If his behavior is extremely dishonorable or criminal, then snub or expel him...say, OJ Simpson or whatever.  Or even Pete Rose.  But not being gifted at making friends is less of an eyesore in the Hall than plenty of the stuff some Hall of Famers did on the ice - Pronger, etc.

 

Pierre Turgeon...  Yeah, I'd have him in the Hall of Fame as well.  He's getting close to the cutoff line, but he's above it.  I have him behind Bernie Nicholls though.

 

As for Juneau, I have him below the cutoff line, and also behind plenty of other players like Brian Propp, Bobby Smith, Dave Taylor, Steve Larmer, Theoren Fleury...probably also behind Charlie Simmer, Tim Kerr, Rick Martin, Dale Hunter, Patrick Marleau, Kirk Muller.  Probably behind Rick Middleton, maybe even Pete Mahovlich, Brian Bellows, Neal Broten, Peter Bondra, Markus Naslund and Pat Verbeek.

 

Juneau had a legendary rookie year...but he didn't follow it up with too much.  He only scored about 450 more points in his career.  I would say completely forgotten guys like Dennis Maruk and Mike Rogers actually had better careers overall.  I'd have Trevor Linden ahead of him for the Hall as well.

 

Not to take anything away from Juneau...but in my book we have a lot of guys to go through and induct before we start thinking about good old Joe.

 

And I didn't even start on defensemen.  Or old time goalies like John Ross Roach.

You bet - what I was trying to say was Pierre Turgeon was no Joe Junaeu in that he had more then one spectacular season...pretty consistent throughout his career ...  Kerr almost is in Bure/Lindros territory as in his career was cut short ... just too short - was a huge power forward and great player ... 

[Kevin Biestra]

4 minutes ago, IBatch said:

You bet - what I was trying to say was Pierre Turgeon was no Joe Junaeu in that he had more then one spectacular season...pretty consistent throughout his career ...  Kerr almost is in Bure/Lindros territory as in his career was cut short ... just too short - was a huge power forward and great player ... 

 

Guess reading comprehension got the better of me.  Yeah, Kerr was something else until his body broke down.  Barry Pederson too for that matter.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

39 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Guess reading comprehension got the better of me.  Yeah, Kerr was something else until his body broke down.  Barry Pederson too for that matter.

Bobby Orr was still elite on one leg.  Can ALMOST forget he was a Bruin.

[Kevin Biestra]

3 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Bobby Orr was still elite on one leg.  Can ALMOST forget he was a Bruin.

 

Yeah, I really liked a lot of the Bruins of the past.  Moog, Lemelin, Cheevers, Peeters, Hodge, Hodge Jr., Neely, Bourque, Park, Esposito, Cashman, Oates, Middleton, etc.  They even had Rogie Vachon for a year or so at the end.  Propp, Poulin, Coffey for a cup of coffee.

 

Too bad that 2011 iteration of the team just poisoned my impression of the team.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

17 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah, I really liked a lot of the Bruins of the past.  Moog, Lemelin, Cheevers, Peeters, Hodge, Hodge Jr., Neely, Bourque, Park, Esposito, Cashman, Oates, Middleton, etc.  They even had Rogie Vachon for a year or so at the end.  Propp, Poulin, Coffey for a cup of coffee.

 

Too bad that 2011 iteration of the team just poisoned my impression of the team.

I will also say the Bruins breaking the hearts of Leaffans made me smile....a lot.

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah, I really liked a lot of the Bruins of the past.  Moog, Lemelin, Cheevers, Peeters, Hodge, Hodge Jr., Neely, Bourque, Park, Esposito, Cashman, Oates, Middleton, etc.  They even had Rogie Vachon for a year or so at the end.  Propp, Poulin, Coffey for a cup of coffee.

 

Too bad that 2011 iteration of the team just poisoned my impression of the team.

Yuck and yes.  The prime Borque Bruin era was always something to cheer for ... think that Ranford spoiled their best chance.... The Orr era was too good not to win more then two ... especially given that they had to play and expansion team...kind of silly.    The “Giraffe” spoiled a cup too (Dryden)....he was truly one of the best ever by position. 
 

Losing a to Boston wasn’t as bad as losing in 94.   That was devastating after game six where we dominated them.   Game 7 was as even as any game seven has ever been in the modern era (since expansion) the best game seven since I was born.  Felt we could score one more goal even at the last face off in their zone with a few seconds on the clock.   Crushing.    Don’t hate Boston,  never will, I RESPECT them.  
 

Edit:  also I’m not yelling when I say respect... not groovy with the internet lingo.   No dis-respect meant to your post one bit.   I’m 100% agreeing with you that playing and losing to Boston sullied them somewhat...

Edited June 26, 2020 by IBatch

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

I will also say the Bruins breaking the hearts of Leaffans made me smile....a lot.

Jagr forever will have a place in my heart for getting their bench back into the game and giving leaf land the most gigantic finger I’ve witnessed since Wayne Gretzky put LA on his back and dismantled them in 93.   

[Kevin Biestra]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yuck and yes.  The prime Borque Bruin era was always something to cheer for ... think that Ranford spoiled their best chance.... The Orr era was too good not to win more then two ... especially given that they had to play and expansion team...kind of silly.    The “Giraffe” spoiled a cup too (Dryden)....he was truly one of the best ever by position. 
 

Losing a to Boston wasn’t as bad as losing in 94.   That was devastating after game six where we dominated them.   Game 7 was as even as any game seven has ever been in the modern era (since expansion) the best game seven since I was born.  Felt we could score one more goal even at the last face off in their zone with a few seconds on the clock.   Crushing.    Don’t hate Boston,  never will, I RESPECT them.  

 

Yeah, 80s Boston and Philadelphia kept Edmonton honest and made them earn their Cups.  Take out Edmonton and they would have been two mini-dynasties of their own and those Flyers teams are underrepresented in the HOF.  Propp had 1000 points and five appearances in the Cup final.  It used to be that if you acquired Propp, you were going right to the Final that year (1980, 1990, 1991).  We just talked about Kerr.  Ron Hextall has a case and I would put him in myself.  After that we're down to more Kevin Lowe-ish kind of guys like Brad McCrimmon and Dave Poulin.  Rick Tocchet is kind of an interesting case.

 

I used to cheer for Boston before 2011.  Now I don't think I ever will again.  What actually pissed me off most about Boston might actually be, of all things, when one of their radio shows invited Tony Gallagher on to talk hockey during the final and then the hosts just bullied him like some dicks in high school gym class and then hung up on him.  Just for taking them up on their offer to talk hockey on their show.

 

 

 

[IBatch]

1 minute ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah, 80s Boston and Philadelphia kept Edmonton honest and made them earn their Cups.  Take out Edmonton and they would have been two mini-dynasties of their own and those Flyers teams are underrepresented in the HOF.  Propp had 1000 points and five appearances in the Cup final.  It used to be that if you acquired Propp, you were going right to the Final that year (1980, 1990, 1991).  We just talked about Kerr.  Ron Hextall has a case and I would put him in myself.  After that we're down to more Kevin Lowe-ish kind of guys like Brad McCrimmon and Dave Poulin.  Rick Tocchet is kind of an interesting case.

 

I used to cheer for Boston before 2011.  Now I don't think I ever will again.  What actually pissed me off most about Boston might actually be, of all things, when one of their radio shows invited Tony Gallagher on to talk hockey during the final and then the hosts just bullied him like some dicks in high school gym class and then hung up on him.  Just for taking them up on their offer to talk hockey on their show.

 

 

 

It’s really nice to have another fan on this site to talk about hockey that doesn’t seem like ancient history to the bulk of fans that are on this site.   189lbs see’s things in a similar light but might be a little younger - but gets crap too often for saying it like it is.   Tochett was a very special player.  
 

  When Berube won as a coach I was so happy for him too.  He had the toughest job in the NHL and did a commendable job at it - one of the fastest punchers ever and rarely lost a fight (do people even know that ?).  
 

Dale Hunter and Tochett will probably never be recognized for what they did as far as the HHOF - but as a fan I’d be stoked to see recognition.   Maybe I’d be crazy to suggest this - but also think that Probert deserves inclusion posthumously  given how well he did his job for that many years.  For anyone who didn’t pay attention go and find out who went to his funeral - and who were the pal bearers.   It’s the HHOF - and he had just as much FAME as most stars of his era and is unanimously considered the best fighter all-time.  Plus he could actually play the game... off-topic a little bit since the HHOF is a current topic...wonder how many fans on this site have even set foot there...really it’s not that big - but a day is not long enough to do it justice. 

[Kevin Biestra]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

Dale Hunter and Tochett will probably never be recognized for what they did as far as the HHOF - but as a fan I’d be stoked to see recognition.   Maybe I’d be crazy to suggest this - but also think that Probert deserves inclusion posthumously  given how well he did his job for that many years.  For anyone who didn’t pay attention go and find out who went to his funeral - and who were the pal bearers.   It’s the HHOF - and he had just as much FAME as most stars of his era and is unanimously considered the best fighter all-time.  Plus he could actually play the game... off-topic a little bit since the HHOF is a current topic...wonder how many fans on this site have even set foot there...really it’s not that big - but a day is not long enough to do it justice. 

 

 

I think Tiger Williams should actually be the first guy in that conversation.  Then it's definitely time to talk about Dale (1000 points) and Rick.  Probert would be the next guy on the list...wish he had racked up a few more points.  Didn't even get to 400 unfortunately.  But Probert vs. whoever was like the Tyson heavyweight tour back in the day.

 

The fact that the enforcer no longer exists makes it all the more legit to enshrine them, 1. because they're like goalies who didn't wear masks, just a bygone artifact of the old strength and honor hockey gladiator era, and 2. because now that they are extinct there is no longer any incentive to get enshrined by virtue of penalty minutes.

 

That's also why I want Tiger and Gino in the ROH.

 

Anyway, who knows...maybe the Carbonneau (and Makarov) inductions will open things up a bit for unique cases for the Hall.  Guys like the above, or Paul Henderson or who knows, Ivan Hlinka or something, or WHA super-legends like Tardif or Cloutier.  Not likely but who knows...

 

 

 

[Kevin Biestra]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

...off-topic a little bit since the HHOF is a current topic...wonder how many fans on this site have even set foot there...really it’s not that big - but a day is not long enough to do it justice. 

 

I forgot to respond to this little snippet.  I mentioned it way back when in another thread, but when I was there I took a minute or two and just looked at the AVCO Cup.  It was in a relatively minor display with another four or five trophies that hardly anybody cares about.  There it was...with Gordie Howe, Bobby Hull, Mark Howe's teams engraved on it.  And King Richard after a seven-game showdown with Bobby Hull and the Jets in 1977 (I posted that game back in the top 50 Canucks threads).  Now it's just gathering dust and nobody knows what it is, when Gordie Howe, Bobby Hull, Dave Keon, Frank Mahovlich and Jacques Plante chose to play for it instead of the Stanley Cup.  I was the only one who even to stopped to look at it.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

16 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I forgot to respond to this little snippet.  I mentioned it way back when in another thread, but when I was there I took a minute or two and just looked at the AVCO Cup.  It was in a relatively minor display with another four or five trophies that hardly anybody cares about.  There it was...with Gordie Howe, Bobby Hull, Mark Howe's teams engraved on it.  And King Richard after a seven-game showdown with Bobby Hull and the Jets in 1977 (I posted that game back in the top 50 Canucks threads).  Now it's just gathering dust and nobody knows what it is, when Gordie Howe, Bobby Hull, Dave Keon, Frank Mahovlich and Jacques Plante chose to play for it instead of the Stanley Cup.  I was the only one who even to stopped to look at it.

How many goals would Bobby Hull have scored if he chose to remain in the NHL?  Or Howe for that matter too...it’s interesting to know that if you combine all regular season goals, WHA and NHL and playoff goals too, Howe scored (read this but never bothered adding up) I think only a few (might actually be one) goals less then Wayne Gretzky did (playoffs included).    When the NHL took them to court and lost, part of the restitution was that they’d have to play a few games ... WHA won one more game - that more then anything speaks to the legitimacy of the league .... and really the NHL owes them a lot, it forced them to expand to compete - added four franchises (eventually) and changed the draft to allow players in earlier extending the players earning power by two years. Time has taken away some of this, but those things still affect the league ... imagine if they didn’t fold and EDM and WNP battled each other for the AVCO cup Instead and the Oilers dynasty and Wayne Gretzky wasn’t part of NHL history?   No sunbelt USA expansion too..

 

edit: Hull scored 913 goals in 1474 NHL/WHA games combined.   He was also calculated to skate  30 miles an hour, faster then any NHLer has ever been clocked.   But athletes are faster then ever right?  Ha ha.  Sure the average joe is as goons are gone but every generation had its speedsters. Larkins time is a farce as he was allowed to start behind the clock and timed after he passed the blue line...and they  allow them to skate closer to the middle making a smaller lap....Bure is the fastest ever, even McDavid doesn’t look like he was shot out of a cannon and he’s the best at it right now.  Digressing a bit but sometimes I feel that the you-tube generation won’t ever understand just how great hockey was in the 80’s and earlier too.   Not just in the NHL too, the WHA and the Red Army/international tournaments too.   
 

Edit:  There is a huge difference in talent between a 6, then 12 then 16, then 21 team league.   It gets watered down even with hockey growth world-wide.  A soon to be 32 league team .... wonder who would make the cut now in a 6-12 team league ... each team would be like an all-star team. 

Edited June 27, 2020 by IBatch

[IBatch]

Was just reading NHL.coms picks for this years Vezina finalists...all of them with the exception of perhaps Binnington had very good cases, with Hellebucyk and Rask looking like the obvisous top two ... personally I’d go with the WNP goalie given they lost their entire top four and Myers this season.   
 

They listed Vasilevsky as another possible finalist...and one honourable mention who they picked Markstrom for. Also mentioned if he didn’t get injured and continued his stellar play that he may have ended up in the conversation for a finalist.    
 

For me I’d say Markstrom had been playing like a top 5-7 goalie the past two seasons...definitely top ten.   And when it comes to playoffs that a critical component.   It’s rare that a team wins a cup with a goalie who isn’t playing in very good to elite form.   They are often the difference makers.   Markstrom is only 30 and doesn’t have the hard miles on him compared to guys like say MAF - who is also still a top goalie -  or Cam Ward (who won his first season and for a long time was a consistent 35-40 win guy).   He’s in his prime, better yet it’s just started.  Have zero problems signing him to a mid to long term deal (5 years seems about right).  Rinne, Lundqvist and Luongo were all still top goalies at 35..and of course legends like Bower (33ish when moving from the AHL) and hate to say it but Tim Thomas too.  
 

A lot of pros had their best seasons from 30-40 too...Howe, Lidstrom ... Visnovksy, Schneider... I get that this is a young mans league now but I it doesn’t mean guys can’t play superb hockey past 30.  Staal resurgence..Stamkos and Tavares still doing their thing...Naslund started his peak at 27...the Sedins 29-30ish.  Think that Marksrom has all the same chances of doing great things for us over the next 5-7 years...and stoked he worked out. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by IBatch