Hart Trophy finalists unveiled

[peaches5]

32 minutes ago, Phil_314 said:

Crazy how good his +/- was this season (+36 and 3rd in league scoring, tied with Pastrnak), though not having seen much of him I wonder how much of that is due to his individual brilliance?  

I had Panarin as the third best winger in the league last year behind Kucherov and Kane, and the best left winger. He was so underrated on this board. I would have been happy if we signed him for 11.5+m. He plays like a guy who is 6'3 and 250lbs. He is very gritty and emotional in a good way. He isn't afraid of the corners or puck battles.. and his skill is off the charts. He creates a lot of things by himself too. 

 

 

[Western Red]

2 hours ago, DeNiro said:

Not the level of McDavid or Rantanen.

 

He did have a great season but Panarin definitely drove that. The guy was everything for New York.

Yea, I seem to recall Panarin didn't play a ton with MZ. Strome was a more steady linemate if i do recall correctly.

[-Vintage Canuck-]

Went with Draisatil.

[TNucks1]

im a big Mackinnon fan but i think Draisatil should win it

[Phil_314]

2 hours ago, peaches5 said:

I had Panarin as the third best winger in the league last year behind Kucherov and Kane, and the best left winger. He was so underrated on this board. I would have been happy if we signed him for 11.5+m. He plays like a guy who is 6'3 and 250lbs. He is very gritty and emotional in a good way. He isn't afraid of the corners or puck battles.. and his skill is off the charts. He creates a lot of things by himself too. 

Didn't know he was so skilled, watched some videos just now of his brilliant stick-work, and he's always in the right place and right time to either feather a pass for a tap-in or hammer home a puck himself.  Wonder if he's got enough recognition compared with the other guys to win it though

[Gawdzukes]

7 hours ago, DeNiro said:

Funny I would pick Panarin to win it.

 

Hard to argue that he wasn’t the most important player to his team.

 

Draisaitl has McDavid, and Mackinnon has Rantanen and Landeskog. Who does Panarin have?

Kakko

Zibanejad

Kreider

Fox

Deangelo

Trouba

 

After McDavid, Draisaitl has nothing, Well that was pretty easy to argue. i think that the Rangers were a very well coached team. That group was playing an incredibly tight team game going down the stretch.

[King Heffy]

Just now, Gawdzukes said:

Kakko

Zibanejad

Kreider

Fox

Deangelo

Trouba

 

After McDavid, Draisaitl has nothing, Well that was pretty easy to argue. i think that the Rangers were a very well coached team. That group was playing an incredibly tight team game going down the stretch.

Soilers are a bad AHL team after Drys***hole and McDiver.  Still MacKinnon's a more dominant player than the other nominees and is easily the best player in the game.

[Gawdzukes]

1 minute ago, King Heffy said:

Soilers are a bad AHL team after Drys***hole and McDiver.  Still MacKinnon's a more dominant player than the other nominees and is easily the best player in the game.

Agreed

[DeNiro]

32 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

Kakko

Zibanejad

Kreider

Fox

Deangelo

Trouba

 

After McDavid, Draisaitl has nothing, Well that was pretty easy to argue. i think that the Rangers were a very well coached team. That group was playing an incredibly tight team game going down the stretch.

Yea Nugent Hopkins and Nurse are scrubs...

[Gawdzukes]

8 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Yea Nugent Hopkins and Nurse are scrubs...

Totally ...  not as clear as you professed though

[Kevin Biestra]

13 hours ago, Fateless said:

I always feel bad for MacKinnon. The guy is such an incredibly consistent talent, but he always seems to just miss out on these awards. He'd be 3rd on my ballot. He should have won it last year.

 

Even Yzerman never won a Hart Trophy, and he had 155 points one year.  MacKinnon might end up finishing 3rd for the rest of his career but he'll still have a spot waiting in the HOF when it's all said and done.

[IBatch]

19 hours ago, timberz21 said:

Rantanen missed 27 games and both him and Landeskog are scoring < 1PPG.... Panarin has Zibanejad who is scoring at 1.31PPG.  

 

IMO, yes Panarin has a big impact on his team, but I think the NYR have a much better TEAM approach than Colorado or Edmonton, which rely solely on a few guys only.  Remove the 3 guys from the their respective team, I feel like Edmonton and Colorado would take a bigger fall than NYR.

 

I think he 100% deserves to be nominated, but I don't he's THE most important player. 

NYR has the worst roster by far of these three teams.   Zibanejad had a career year - no wonder given Panarins help... he was the best 5 x 5 player all year - doesn’t rely on special teams to pad his stats nearly as much as the other candidates.   For sure EDM doesn’t look too good without their wonder twins - but COL is stacked right now, have elite-very good young stars in all positions plus Kadri and Landeskog...IMO only Tampa Bay can compare with them.  Girard,  Makar...they are loaded.    McKinnon did his thing without Rantannen for long spells but certainly had top notch support everywhere else.    Remove Panarin from their lineup and they are bottom well below average, remove both him and Zibanejad they’d be bottom dwellers.   EDM managed fine with just one of them ... doubt NYR would even be in the play-ins without Zibanejad.

Edited July 22, 2020 by IBatch

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Even Yzerman never won a Hart Trophy, and he had 155 points one year.  MacKinnon might end up finishing 3rd for the rest of his career but he'll still have a spot waiting in the HOF when it's all said and done.

Him and Hawerchuk played behind the two best centers ever to lace them up in WG and Mario.   For a decade WG won 9 and Mario 1....then Messier got his due with two with Hull getting his lone one and he was one of the best scoring wingers all-time ... even crazier is the Art Ross ... it took 22 years before someone not named Gretzky, Lemieux or Jagr won... and really I should have been 23 as WG tied with Dionne but did it in less games ... at least co-owned it his rookie season. 

[IBatch]

18 hours ago, theo5789 said:

Considering it's the same nominees, why is there two awards for pretty much the same thing? I know one is voted by the media and the other is voted by the players, but it doesn't seem like any other award with this circumstance. Why not have the best dman go to a media and players vote as well? I imagine the players would have a better idea on which dman they have a harder time going up against. Perhaps defensive dmen would get more respresentation than the usual media picking out the top offensive dmen.

There is a big difference between the two trophies.   One is for the player that was the MVP league wide for his team...the other is for the best player in the league voted by their peers.   Strange how WG won so many Harts and relatively few but still a lot Lyndsays as you’d think it would be the other way around ...  The Hart is often given to a player like Panarin, who without the team would do a lot worse.  Hall is a recent example.  Price is another one.  Same with Haseks, which are great examples. 

[theo5789]

31 minutes ago, IBatch said:

There is a big difference between the two trophies.   One is for the player that was the MVP league wide for his team...the other is for the best player in the league voted by their peers.   Strange how WG won so many Harts and relatively few but still a lot Lyndsays as you’d think it would be the other way around ...  The Hart is often given to a player like Panarin, who without the team would do a lot worse.  Hall is a recent example.  Price is another one.  Same with Haseks, which are great examples. 

I get that due to the quality of the team around them making them invaluable for their team. However, then the players who are supposedly better with better support, wouldn't their talent be watered down and thus naming them league wide MVP seems a bit wrong when there was is a player that put up great numbers despite the lack of team support?

 

I just think it's odd that there's two awards for something quite similar, where for example dmen could get the same recognition (especially more defensive minded dmen) and have that voted by their peers as they know who they have a tough time facing.

[IBatch]

18 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

I get that due to the quality of the team around them making them invaluable for their team. However, then the players who are supposedly better with better support, wouldn't their talent be watered down and thus naming them league wide MVP seems a bit wrong when there was is a player that put up great numbers despite the lack of team support?

 

I just think it's odd that there's two awards for something quite similar, where for example dmen could get the same recognition (especially more defensive minded dmen) and have that voted by their peers as they know who they have a tough time facing.

I’d be game if they made a second Norris trophy ... seems like it just goes to the guy with the most points way too often and if they added one called the Langway or Stevens  award which just focused on defensive excellence but see your point.   MVP is a common sports theme so the Hart makes a lot of sense and after probably the Conn Smythe is definitely the most valuable personal hardware.    
 

Wayne Gretzky deserves his Harts even with a great supporting cast... was scoring 200 points when the next best was mostly scoring 100, and once he was traded it still was obvious how dominant he was with a lesser support.  Same with Lemieux he turned 20 goal scorers into 50 goals scorers...pretty awesome.     I do agree that often the Hart also goes to the same guy that wins the Pearson /Lyndsay ...  for us Markstrom might be worthy of both on the same team but both Miller and EP would have something to say about that (Lyndsay award). 
 

I also believe that if Markstrom wasn’t injured he could be up for both the Vezina and Hart this year.   I don’t mind the two ... the voting is often strange though - D Sedin was more worthy of the Hart then Perry according to THN, and sometimes a goalie wins the Vezina but doesn’t win the first all-star team slot go figure right?    McDavid or MacKinnon  are the obvious choices for the Lyndsay (Although Drasaitl might be this year too) like Crosby and Ovi used to be, but every year is a little different as far as the Hart goes.   Panarin IMO is by far the most deserving of the finalists but doubt he will win it.   Most Valuable to his team definitely doesn’t mean best player in the league year to year. 

Edited July 22, 2020 by IBatch

[IBatch]

14 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Soilers are a bad AHL team after Drys***hole and McDiver.  Still MacKinnon's a more dominant player than the other nominees and is easily the best player in the game.

Easily?  Hmmm.  I’d say it’s pretty close but not heads and tails above.   I’d even argue Crosby is still up there same with Ovi.    The Hart has nothing to do with the best player anyways.  Often it is not the best player that wins it.   The best player in the league year to year is closer to what the Pearson/Lyndsay award says then the Hart.   If cap wasn’t an issue and you could have any player for a dollar who would you really pick?  For most that conversation starts with McDavid and ends with McDavid be honest.   He’s one of a select few that was hyped and lived up to the hype.  Crosby is another.  MacKinnon is more like Kucherov who played a few seasons and then started to become elite.    Right now I’m not even sure I’d take MacKinnon over Draisatl...why?  He doesn’t have the same supporting class and still killed it and plays like a tank.  I’d take any of these guys of course but it’s not cut and dried at all.   Im not even convinced an early 30’s Crosby isn’t in the conversation too.   Or a close to mid 30’s Ovi.  

[theo5789]

50 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I’d be game if they made a second Norris trophy ... seems like it just goes to the guy with the most points way too often and if they added one called the Langway or Stevens  award which just focused on defensive excellence but see your point.   MVP is a common sports theme so the Hart makes a lot of sense and after probably the Conn Smythe is definitely the most valuable personal hardware.    
 

Wayne Gretzky deserves his Harts even with a great supporting cast... was scoring 200 points when the next best was mostly scoring 100, and once he was traded it still was obvious how dominant he was with a lesser support.  Same with Lemieux he turned 20 goal scorers into 50 goals scorers...pretty awesome.     I do agree that often the Hart also goes to the same guy that wins the Pearson /Lyndsay ...  for us Markstrom might be worthy of both on the same team but both Miller and EP would have something to say about that (Lyndsay award). 
 

I also believe that if Markstrom wasn’t injured he could be up for both the Vezina and Hart this year.   I don’t mind the two ... the voting is often strange though - D Sedin was more worthy of the Hart then Perry according to THN, and sometimes a goalie wins the Vezina but doesn’t win the first all-star team slot go figure right?    McDavid or MacKinnon  are the obvious choices for the Lyndsay (Although Drasaitl might be this year too) like Crosby and Ovi used to be, but every year is a little different as far as the Hart goes.   Panarin IMO is by far the most deserving of the finalists but doubt he will win it.   Most Valuable to his team definitely doesn’t mean best player in the league year to year. 

I get this, but I just look at the argument in both threads and they're generally the same argument. Even the nominees are the same. Personally I rather win the award voted by my peers as the media has too much bias and watches the East more than the West.

 

Anyway, I understand why there are two awards, but just think that with two different voters for it, they could both be voting for the same thing for both awards. They should have one group of voters and distinguish the difference between the two on what to vote for. But if they want to do a media/player award, then I think it could branch out further to more recognition. However at the same time, these awards are just props to give players more money on their contracts and we need less reasons for agents to inflate contracts.

[peaches5]

15 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Soilers are a bad AHL team after Drys***hole and McDiver.  Still MacKinnon's a more dominant player than the other nominees and is easily the best player in the game.

Okay, Mackinnon is not better than McDavid. McDavid is the best player in the game without any doubt. That is like arguing Crosby in his prime wasn't the best player in the game. Nobody is even close to McDavid. 

[timberz21]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

NYR has the worst roster by far of these three teams.   Zibanejad had a career year - no wonder given Panarins help... he was the best 5 x 5 player all year - doesn’t rely on special teams to pad his stats nearly as much as the other candidates.   For sure EDM doesn’t look too good without their wonder twins - but COL is stacked right now, have elite-very good young stars in all positions plus Kadri and Landeskog...IMO only Tampa Bay can compare with them.  Girard,  Makar...they are loaded.    McKinnon did his thing without Rantannen for long spells but certainly had top notch support everywhere else.    Remove Panarin from their lineup and they are bottom well below average, remove both him and Zibanejad they’d be bottom dwellers.   EDM managed fine with just one of them ... doubt NYR would even be in the play-ins without Zibanejad.

Agree on paper, but I think they are playing above their head also, which is why I said they had a better team mentality which boosted their wins IMO.

 

Also Panarin reminds me of when Hall won the trophy, with the difference that the Devils made the playoffs, which is usually a big factor in the decision.  SC qualifier aside...the Rangers were sitting in 11th position in the East and were a very longshot to make the playoff in a "normal" season.