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Hogs & Podz

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On 7/23/2020 at 6:41 PM, Hogs & Podz said:

Agreed... My optimism is obviously the fanatic dreamer in me but really nothing is orthodox in playoff hockey, anything can happen especially with this never seen before format.  Fascinating all around.  Definitely as deep as the 92' team mixed with 08' Chicago?

Not on defense. 

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5 hours ago, IBatch said:

LA sure had no business winning a cup. Quick and Thomas definitely had two of best goalie performances of the past two decades .... sucked we had to play victim to that back-to-back.   Then they won again which made it so much worse  as it took flukey out of the equation.  Wards and Giguires were pretty good too but those guys were Roy good .... 

 

Markstrom would win the Conn Smythe and have to play at least as well as them to give us any chance of a cup or even final appearance this year.   We have the scoring that’s not an issue at all.   But we definitely don’t have anything close to a championship defense or championship Selke types.   I’d be happy to win one round (real round).  Our middle six depth is for sure a strength too ... the longer we go the easier it should become to keep going. 

I see the first Kings Cup win in similar light to the Blues recent win, both teams got two excellent two-way centers for fairly cheap because those players wanted out of Buffalo/Columbus. They struggled mightily before they managed to figure it out with the help of a coaching change.

 

Both teams were right on the cusp, till those trades which pushed them over the top. Coaching changes are also a shot in the arm of any team and it turned into the perfect storm.

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Hard to drum up a universal formula that applies evenly to all markets. I'd argue a fixated 24/7 Cdn one is quite different than a lazy, uninspired, rev-sharing-fed monster in the sunbelt.

 

Would say JB has nicely adapted(learned on the go), as I'm pretty much on board w/ 85-90% of his creation. Would nitpick he overspent a bit in early trades/FAgency. Drafting is his wheelhouse & raison d'etre, that'll bring our boys to the promised land.

Edited by Nuxfanabroad
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6 hours ago, Silky mitts said:

It won't be much of a rivalry for a while, we are going to spank them for like 7 years lol. 

I wouldn't bet on it... I think seattle will be a competitive team with the first 3 years.  Maybe not like Vegas but close... Mostly because to the market place change due to covid (and the positive deals they will be able to make as a result).  As good as the canucks will be for years to come, we will still have to contend with Edmonton and Vegas for the next 2 or 3 years (at least) and by then one of the California teams will start rising up again... And thats just our own division.  So Seattle may find it hard to make it to the playoffs for the first while but I don't think they will be pushovers.

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12 hours ago, IBatch said:

Not on defense. 


Centers:

 

Linden in his prime (granted, he was naturally a center)

Ronning (“it’s not the size of the dog in a fight but the size of the fight in the dog”)

Larionov (the Russian professor still had some gas left in the tank)


Nuclear weapons in the form of the Doomsday device (Gino), the ICBM (Momesso), and the kid (Antoski)...nobody would are cough in the direction of EP if he had these three amigos either on the bench or ice.

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6 hours ago, Hogs & Podz said:

Not as deep but never had a Quinn caliber type of defender either... So there is an argument to be made that with Quinn, overall comparison equal out.

Well we had Reinhart for two years so I wouldn’t go there yet.   Plus plus plus.   Also there is a lot more to defense then just points.  Mentioned today that Jovo was the closest we’ve had so far to a number one defenseman that does it all.   He really did and in the darkest depths of the dead puck era.!    Also had Lidster, Lumme, Lanz and McCarthy ... not at all chopped liver and QHs  won’t ever likely paste guys to the boards or knock their block off in a fight or from a hit.   Yes he’s amazing / but he’s never going to be a guy like Hedman or Weber. 
 

edit:  figure Hughes will end up somewhere between Rafalski/Campbell and Housley. 

Edited by IBatch
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1 hour ago, Hogs & Podz said:

I wouldn't bet on it... I think seattle will be a competitive team with the first 3 years.  Maybe not like Vegas but close... Mostly because to the market place change due to covid (and the positive deals they will be able to make as a result).  As good as the canucks will be for years to come, we will still have to contend with Edmonton and Vegas for the next 2 or 3 years (at least) and by then one of the California teams will start rising up again... And thats just our own division.  So Seattle may find it hard to make it to the playoffs for the first while but I don't think they will be pushovers.

Both goaltending and defense should be a strength right off the hop ... after all they get to pick the best of the 30 other teams (Vegas’s excluded) remaining top four D’s.   This is one area JB has a great job to protect us ... with Edlers contract and likely Tanevs too if he signs the one year contract they are working on.   And I’ve seen it happen many times before when a middle six player gets top minutes he explodes.   Happened with us and JT Miller this year ... believe Seattle’s starting team won’t be much worse then Vegas was - minus a lot of the extras.   This could mean they are even better as GMs won’t be so willing to add to protect certain players and instead just let them go.   Their entire roster will be built from middle six players from top to bottom and 4th defenseman.    I’m sure they will start better then all the Cali teams and have a decent chance at making the playoffs right off the hop.    Where they will be weaker is their prospect pool as they won’t get the extra picks and prospects....the flip side is they could have a better starting roster... scary really. 

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6 hours ago, IBatch said:

...figure Hughes will end up somewhere between Rafalski/Campbell and Housley. 

 

Pretty wide gap there.  I mean unless we have some sort of Jonathan Cheechoo level regression, Hughes has more or less matched Rafalski and Campbell's peak performance already.  Housley and his 1200 points is a pretty good estimation of Quinn's ceiling if he has Bourque / Gretzky / Sedin like durability.  Although I think Quinn, if he gets there, will do it with more than one post-season All-Star selection.

 

That said, I don't know how the hell Housley got 97 points one year and ended up 6th in All Star voting.  That was just plain silly.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Pretty wide gap there.  I mean unless we have some sort of Jonathan Cheechoo level regression, Hughes has more or less matched Rafalski and Campbell's peak performance already.  Housley and his 1200 points is a pretty good estimation of Quinn's ceiling if he has Bourque / Gretzky / Sedin like durability.  Although I think Quinn, if he gets there, will do it with more than one post-season All-Star selection.

 

That said, I don't know how the hell Housley got 97 points one year and ended up 6th in All Star voting.  That was just plain silly.

 

 

+1 

Campbell or Rafalski shouldn't and won't be in the conversation... Housley on the other hand....  Good comparison.  This young man... Short of major injuries, will be a hall of fame player.  He's already changing what defence puck possession style is becoming in the new area of hockey.  Quinn is a big part of it.

Edited by Hogs & Podz
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9 hours ago, Hogs & Podz said:

I wouldn't bet on it... I think seattle will be a competitive team with the first 3 years.  Maybe not like Vegas but close... Mostly because to the market place change due to covid (and the positive deals they will be able to make as a result).  As good as the canucks will be for years to come, we will still have to contend with Edmonton and Vegas for the next 2 or 3 years (at least) and by then one of the California teams will start rising up again... And thats just our own division.  So Seattle may find it hard to make it to the playoffs for the first while but I don't think they will be pushovers.

I agree with your points friend but if what we believe we have in this core is that we will be a perennial powerhouse for awhile 

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27 minutes ago, Silky mitts said:

I agree with your points friend but if what we believe we have in this core is that we will be a perennial powerhouse for awhile 

That's a tongue twister there... Am I stoned...?.... or do you not make any sense at all?  

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7 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Pretty wide gap there.  I mean unless we have some sort of Jonathan Cheechoo level regression, Hughes has more or less matched Rafalski and Campbell's peak performance already.  Housley and his 1200 points is a pretty good estimation of Quinn's ceiling if he has Bourque / Gretzky / Sedin like durability.  Although I think Quinn, if he gets there, will do it with more than one post-season All-Star selection.

 

That said, I don't know how the hell Housley got 97 points one year and ended up 6th in All Star voting.  That was just plain silly.

 

 

For sure it’s a wide-gap between Campbell and Housley ... Ekblad won the Calder and was supposed to be the next Weber and we are still waiting for that ... nothing wrong with with Rafalski or Campbell as a floor - I really can’t think of anyone else who’s around the same size and had a good career as those three - somewhere inbetween makes sense to me I doubt Q Hughes scores the way Housley did but maybe he gets to the 1000 point mark one day if he’s durable enough.

 

Oh I know why Housley was 6th, his defensive game wasn’t that good - or good enough to land him a first or second all-star slot. 

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25 minutes ago, IBatch said:

For sure it’s a wide-gap between Campbell and Housley ... Ekblad won the Calder and was supposed to be the next Weber and we are still waiting for that ... nothing wrong with with Rafalski or Campbell as a floor - I really can’t think of anyone else who’s around the same size and had a good career as those three - somewhere inbetween makes sense to me I doubt Q Hughes scores the way Housley did but maybe he gets to the 1000 point mark one day if he’s durable enough.

 

Oh I know why Housley was 6th, his defensive game wasn’t that good - or good enough to land him a first or second all-star slot. 

 

Housley was no Rod Langway, but what...five defensemen ever (or something like that) have had 100 points and he got to 97.  Led all d-men in scoring that year and second place that year was 87 points.  6th place for the all star team is ridiculous.  Knock him a little in the Norris voting if you must, but even then.  The scoring on Winnipeg went Teemu Selanne, then Housley, and then a sizable (25 point) drop from Housley to the next forward.

 

Yeah, Rafalski and Campbell as a floor isn't unreasonable...but boy would that be disappointing.  Still, we had Tallon and Guevremont come out of the gates like a bat out of hell and then have very human careers.

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1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Housley was no Rod Langway, but what...five defensemen ever (or something like that) have had 100 points and he got to 97.  Led all d-men in scoring that year and second place that year was 87 points.  6th place for the all star team is ridiculous.  Knock him a little in the Norris voting if you must, but even then.  The scoring on Winnipeg went Teemu Selanne, then Housley, and then a sizable (25 point) drop from Housley to the next forward.

 

Yeah, Rafalski and Campbell as a floor isn't unreasonable...but boy would that be disappointing.  Still, we had Tallon and Guevremont come out of the gates like a bat out of hell and then have very human careers.

I think Q Hughes is going to have a HHOF career.   Housley was an amazing player too and much deserved to be in the HHOF - always wondered how many points he’d have scored as a forward.   His goal scoring totals are gaudy, especially for a guy using wooden sticks and that size.    Like Housley I expect QHughes points to go up and up, especially as the core also ascends and reaches their primes.
 

  When’s the last time a defenseman even scored 90?  If anyone can do it Q Hughes or Makar are good bets.   70 next year doesn’t seem out of sight.   He’s so young.   

 

Should have worded a little clearer in my original post - Ralaksi, Campbell and Housley were all short for defenseman in their eras especially even more then today.   Ghost is too, he kind of fell off a cliff and might be on his way out of PHI with who’s coming up behind him.  
 

Of those guys Housley had some very good years where he was better in his own zone then others but was almost always a minus guy.   Campbell struck me as a guy that could really control the play despite his physicality- CHI... ugh.  Dont really remember Rafalski well enough used him more for the size similarities then anything.   I think he’s already somewhere inbetween theses guys which is pretty incredible (especially as you pointed out the size of the gap...wish could think of more examples).    Housley had a few seasons where he was injured but for the most part was very durable, Campbell struggled to stay healthy on and off his entire career.  Do think durability will definitely play into it and that 1000 points isn’t outside the realm of possibility.   For a defenseman that’s incredible.... guessing Lidstrom was the last one to get that far.    Doubt Burns or Karlsson make it.   Campbell should be around 60ish all-time in scoring, no small thing there either.  Ok checked 64 for Rafalski (in a lot less games then Campbell) and 67 for Campbell. 
 

Maybe Reinhart is another guy to consider but he was built like a tank. 
 

Edit: Karlsson would should have made it if he was durable enough...easily missed out on 100 points so far and already at over 600 in around 700 games.   Burns has a few more but has played over 1100 games already.   They will both end up in the HHOF, with Chara and Keith and Pouty Doughty.. 

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5 minutes ago, IBatch said:

For a defenseman that’s incredible.... guessing Lidstrom was the last one to get that far.    Doubt Burns or Karlsson make it.   Campbell should be around 50ish all-time in scoring, no small thing there either.

 

Yeah Lidstrom was the last 1000 point guy and among active players, nobody's at 700.  Burns, Chara and Keith don't have anywhere near enough time left.  Karlsson has pretty good points / game but he'll run out of steam.  He's 30 with 600 points.  Don't think he has 2/3 of his scoring career thus far to do a second time.

 

If anyone else hits 1000, it will probably be Hughes or Makar 15 years from now.  But other than Burns, I actually doubt anyone else hits 800 until them.

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17 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah Lidstrom was the last 1000 point guy and among active players, nobody's at 700.  Burns, Chara and Keith don't have anywhere near enough time left.  Karlsson has pretty good points / game but he'll run out of steam.  He's 30 with 600 points.  Don't think he has 2/3 of his scoring career thus far to do a second time.

 

If anyone else hits 1000, it will probably be Hughes or Makar 15 years from now.  But other than Burns, I actually doubt anyone else hits 800 until them.

That’s how I see it too.   Burns and Karlsson should both go up the list and already are pretty darn high considering...Weber has also done very well.  Mr Consistent and should also end up in the top 30 before he’s done for sure.   Karlsson is still young and really should be enjoying his best years right now (Burns best we’re in his early thirties) .. he shouldn’t have too much trouble scoring 30-40 points the rest of the way which would get him into the 800-900 range depending mostly on injuries for sure (and he always seems injured these days).    If he gets his groove back and stays outs of the infirmary for even two years his point totals could end up top 15.   Could see Burns averaging 30 until he’s 40 which would also put him in the 900 club territory.   
 

For me it’s just nice to see a couple of high octane defenseman rookies again.  It’s been a very long time.   And the best part is one of them are ours.   QH could have challenged Lidsters record had the season not stopped.   At least he should add some points to it - shouldn’t the play-ins count as stats on players regular season columns?  
 

Edit:  Back to Weber...he’s already 18th for goals...and hasn’t hit 1000 games yet.  

Edited by IBatch
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15 minutes ago, IBatch said:

  QH could have challenged Lidsters record had the season not stopped.   At least he should add some points to it - shouldn’t the play-ins count as stats on players regular season columns?  

That's what I would have thought, but no, they are going to be counted as playoff points (and any recorded by round robin teams won't count for anything). Seems unfair.

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22 hours ago, Hogs & Podz said:

Not as deep but never had a Quinn caliber type of defender either... So there is an argument to be made that with Quinn, overall comparison equal out.

I would take our D in 2011 and 1994 over this group even with QH there. He is a huge building block for sure but we need 4 solid D players or at least 2 of QH quality to really be thought of as a contender.

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