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please no more dump and chase - watch this video!

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apollo18
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so i closely watched last years winnipeg jets vs st louis series and honestly if Trouba wasnt an idiot in the corner with like 20 seconds left, i feel like winnipeg would have taken that series.

We are a very similar team to winnipeg when our players are actually playing. good offense, weak ish d, and good goalie.

 

WE NEED TO STOP PLAYING DUMP AND CHASE FFS

have controlled enteries and thats what the blues d man have troubles beating. Watch the video for proof.

when we dump and chase we always end up getting pounded and we can't steal the puck from the blues strong and tough defenseman. Its time for a change. we need to skate fast, and enter the zone with control and take shots off the rush.

 

 

* also countless times i hust see us dump the puck in or ice it 24/7, and like how it was said below. DONT DUMP if you have to change, keep possesion while u change*

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Down by the River said:

It is easy to hate on the Leafs, but one thing that they do that I love is their willingness to play the puck backwards into their own dzone to complete a change. The forward gains center, but instead of just firing the puck deep to change, which creates an uncontested breakout going the other way, they fire the puck back to the dman to complete a change while maintaining possession. This might not be something they want to do all the time with a guy like Benn that could struggle holding onto the puck for forwards to reset, but if you have a guy like Hughes, send the puck back, let him go behind his net and regroup. 

OMG yes! I get so frustrated every time I see a player dump it in for a change when they can easily hold onto it and skate back, or pass it to the Dman to keep possession. It's such a wasted opportunity to still have the puck instead of giving away possession for no reason. Last time I checked the more you have the puck, the better your chances of winning a game will be.

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58 minutes ago, Down by the River said:

It is easy to hate on the Leafs, but one thing that they do that I love is their willingness to play the puck backwards into their own dzone to complete a change. The forward gains center, but instead of just firing the puck deep to change, which creates an uncontested breakout going the other way, they fire the puck back to the dman to complete a change while maintaining possession. This might not be something they want to do all the time with a guy like Benn that could struggle holding onto the puck for forwards to reset, but if you have a guy like Hughes, send the puck back, let him go behind his net and regroup. 

This makes a lot of sense, but I feel there has to be a reason why this doesn't happen. Perhaps: 

 

- Dumping the puck in on a tired defense pairing would make it harder for them to break out of the zone against a forecheck with fresh forwards. 

- Feeling confident in your ability to counter against a team's breakout can help potentially create odd man rushes. 

 

I do agree with you in that maintaining possession makes a lot of sense. But I feel that there's gotta be something that prevents this from being the norm

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2 minutes ago, Hectic said:

This makes a lot of sense, but I feel there has to be a reason why this doesn't happen. Perhaps: 

 

- Dumping the puck in on a tired defense pairing would make it harder for them to break out of the zone against a forecheck with fresh forwards. 

- Feeling confident in your ability to counter against a team's breakout can help potentially create odd man rushes. 

 

I do agree with you in that maintaining possession makes a lot of sense. But I feel that there's gotta be something that prevents this from being the norm

It could just be that so much of the hockey culture in the past 50 years has been "get pucks deep"... which I don't necessarily disagree with. If you can get pucks deep AND establish the forecheck, it is far safer than trying to maintain possession. Great way to wear down a team's defence by making them turn to retrieve pucks. The cases I'm talking about is where there is literally no forecheck presence whatsoever. It is just a matter of handing the puck back to the other team with no opposition to the breakout. It isn't until the neutral zone at best that the forecheckers arrive from the change.

 

I only see this happen a couple times a game where the forward clearly should not have shot the puck in (e.g., it wasn't to relieve major pressure, just moreso a habit). 

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4 minutes ago, Down by the River said:

It could just be that so much of the hockey culture in the past 50 years has been "get pucks deep"... which I don't necessarily disagree with. If you can get pucks deep AND establish the forecheck, it is far safer than trying to maintain possession. Great way to wear down a team's defence by making them turn to retrieve pucks. The cases I'm talking about is where there is literally no forecheck presence whatsoever. It is just a matter of handing the puck back to the other team with no opposition to the breakout. It isn't until the neutral zone at best that the forecheckers arrive from the change.

 

I only see this happen a couple times a game where the forward clearly should not have shot the puck in (e.g., it wasn't to relieve major pressure, just moreso a habit). 

I actually think it happens more than a couple times a game haha - glad you brought this up though, it's an interesting point and one I've always wondered as well. Maybe there's an element of forcing the other team into making a mistake vs making a mistake yourself, or maybe there's no science behind this at all and we're overthinking it 

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It is not a dump and chase. It is a dump and change...:bigblush:

 

This all starts in their own end where the opposition cycles and has possession of the puck for extended periods of time. We do not take time and space away as we are far too soft on the puck. By the time we regain possession it is all we can do to flip the puck out of our own end, hope it doesn't get called for icing, change and get ready to do it again.This happens far too often and the only way to rectify this is to move our feet and be harder on the puck to regain possession more quickly. We also need to challenge St. Louis' entry into our zone so they don't easily gain the zone with possession. Make them dump it in and out battle them for possession.

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4 hours ago, apollo18 said:

so i closely watched last years winnipeg jets vs st louis series and honestly if Trouba wasnt an idiot in the corner with like 20 seconds left, i feel like winnipeg would have taken that series.

We are a very similar team to winnipeg when our players are actually playing. good offense, weak ish d, and good goalie.

 

WE NEED TO STOP PLAYING DUMP AND CHASE FFS

have controlled enteries and thats what the blues d man have troubles beating. Watch the video for proof.

when we dump and chase we always end up getting pounded and we can't steal the puck from the blues strong and tough defenseman. Its time for a change. we need to skate fast, and enter the zone with control and take shots off the rush.

 

 

* also countless times i hust see us dump the puck in or ice it 24/7, and like how it was said below. DONT DUMP if you have to change, keep possesion while u change*

 

 

 

Last years weak winnipeg D corps of. 

Trouba Buff

Morrisey Myers 

Chiarot Morrow Kulikov Niku

 

Also the very first play in your video is Winnipeg scoring off a dump and chase. 

 

Just sayin!

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3 hours ago, Down by the River said:

It could just be that so much of the hockey culture in the past 50 years has been "get pucks deep"... which I don't necessarily disagree with. If you can get pucks deep AND establish the forecheck, it is far safer than trying to maintain possession. Great way to wear down a team's defence by making them turn to retrieve pucks. The cases I'm talking about is where there is literally no forecheck presence whatsoever. It is just a matter of handing the puck back to the other team with no opposition to the breakout. It isn't until the neutral zone at best that the forecheckers arrive from the change.

 

I only see this happen a couple times a game where the forward clearly should not have shot the puck in (e.g., it wasn't to relieve major pressure, just moreso a habit). 

So much of hockey culture was "goalies cant wear masks" and "helmets are stupid" and "goalies gotta stand up" and "visors are for Europeans and French guys" and "pfft, defence, just outscore them" until someone decided to buck the stupid culture.

 

The key to winning is adaptability. Against a team playing deep defence and no forecheck? Hold the puck, retain possession as much as possible. High pressing line? Get it behind them and make them turn to go get it. Dump and chase works against teams that press... and fails miserably against teams with A) a good puck playing tendy and B) a deep defensive line / low puck support.

 

We haven't had an adaptable coach in 30 years. AV had a stacked team but only one way to play it. Green is seemingly falling down the "its what I did when I played" route too much.

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8 hours ago, Down by the River said:

It is easy to hate on the Leafs, but one thing that they do that I love is their willingness to play the puck backwards into their own dzone to complete a change. The forward gains center, but instead of just firing the puck deep to change, which creates an uncontested breakout going the other way, they fire the puck back to the dman to complete a change while maintaining possession. This might not be something they want to do all the time with a guy like Benn that could struggle holding onto the puck for forwards to reset, but if you have a guy like Hughes, send the puck back, let him go behind his net and regroup. 

Ive been wanting to say something about that as well good eye to notice that. Im also not enamored with our PP entry, it 

looks fragile but it is getting results. Im just wondering if there is a hard counter to it that may cost us the series.

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2 hours ago, Shirotashi said:

Ive been wanting to say something about that as well good eye to notice that. Im also not enamored with our PP entry, it 

looks fragile but it is getting results. Im just wondering if there is a hard counter to it that may cost us the series.

To stop our PP hold the blue line and we struggle,  also once we have gained the zone collapse into a tight box and do not chase the player up the wall or to the blue line. 
 

we struggle 5-5 and PP to break down a defensively set team and we rely a lot on broken play/spotting players out of position. 
 

that’s why the take the puck behind the net while good for possession is not our style we are not a possession team but a  turnover and pounce team. More akin to a football (soccer) counter attack style, or a wales rugby fragmented play game. 
 

dunp and chase in the second period isn’t bad as it pins back the d especially on the long change, whereby taking it back to the d allows the opponents to get out the zone. If you keep firing the puck in deep on the long change you can cycle your players while limiting their chance to, resulting in favourable match ups or tired players on long shifts. In the second period you don’t need to hold the puck in the O zone to accomplish this. 
 

For a position based team it makes sense to go back to a D for our play style it’s not about firing in deep for a booming check but to push for better matchups or turnovers.

 

take a look over the past 2 series we have dumped it in, chase the d up one side of a board and had a forward steal the puck and then we score. 

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15 hours ago, Down by the River said:

It is easy to hate on the Leafs, but one thing that they do that I love is their willingness to play the puck backwards into their own dzone to complete a change. The forward gains center, but instead of just firing the puck deep to change, which creates an uncontested breakout going the other way, they fire the puck back to the dman to complete a change while maintaining possession. This might not be something they want to do all the time with a guy like Benn that could struggle holding onto the puck for forwards to reset, but if you have a guy like Hughes, send the puck back, let him go behind his net and regroup. 

Yeah it's really weird because when you look at the mentalilty of 3 vs 3 hockey.... that's precisely what they do. I don't understand why someone on the coaching staff actually thinks possession in 5 on 5 playoff hockey isn't as important as 3 on 3 in the regular season. It's incredibly counterintuitive.

 

I wouldn't even be making any comments if it wasn't a shift to shift occurence. It's pathetic, and I'm very  well aware that a lot of teams do it. It just doesn't make sense.

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Kind of ironic that the first goal of the game by the Jets....they actually dump the puck and retrieve it LOL.

 

Controlled entries also leads to potentially more turnovers...and like you said we have a weakish D....more turnovers + weak D is the recipe for disaster.

 

Not saying it has to be one or the other...but I think you need both.  Gotta recognized when to dump and when to take advantage of catching the other team flat footed.  

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21 hours ago, apollo18 said:

 

WE NEED TO STOP PLAYING DUMP AND CHASE FFS

 

The team's entries - have generally been very good - and a good percentage of them controlled entries imo.

 

You can't simply dispose of dump and chase with the illusion that you are successfully going to gain controlled entries all the time - it's ABC - you need to mix it up or the opponent will simply stand you up at the blueline.

 

So, please, no more oversimplified 'formulas'. 

 

I doubt you have zone entry stats  for this series to reference - you haven't posted any - and I don't have much regard for this 'eye test' wadr.

 

Nothing to see here imo.

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19 hours ago, Down by the River said:

It is easy to hate on the Leafs, but one thing that they do that I love is their willingness to play the puck backwards into their own dzone to complete a change. The forward gains center, but instead of just firing the puck deep to change, which creates an uncontested breakout going the other way, they fire the puck back to the dman to complete a change while maintaining possession. This might not be something they want to do all the time with a guy like Benn that could struggle holding onto the puck for forwards to reset, but if you have a guy like Hughes, send the puck back, let him go behind his net and regroup. 

I agree with you here - this is one thing they've done, that is noticeable, to enhance "possession" - unfortunately, it doesn't make up for all the other blindspots in their build and gameplanning (ie ending opposition possession is every bit as important an element of 'possession", and they build teams without shutdown forwards, with no grit on their backend and wind up using Tavares  line in heavy, hard minutes (not a winning formula imo).  I also think you see similar tendencies to maintainng possession by circling the puck back, albeit perhaps less consistently league-wide (this isn't originated by the Leafs) .  This is a 'lesson' to be learned from soccer where it's not a matter of line-changes, but nevertheless, you will frequently see some of the more (boring lol) possession teams cycle the ball back endlessly in order to maintain possession- stereotypically Italian style football. Personally I'd much rather watch teams like the Dutch - who attack and push the pace - it's far more entertaining - but it is one area of the game where hockey teams can slightly enhance their possession by avoiding the dump and change.

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