[Discussion] Arizona/OEL

[ShawnAntoski]

8 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Yea and I guess McDonagh’s contract is just an anchor for Tampa right? They really should dump that guy if they wanna win a cup. 

 

And before you say well OEL makes 8.25, no one is proposing to make the trade unless his cap hit is around 2 million dollars less. That’s literally the only way the Canucks even consider it.

Tampa is not (openly) trying to trade McDonough - so I don't know what your are trying to say; whereas, the Yotes are desperately trying to rid themselves of this deal.

 

As for OEL:  if the Yotes will eat 2 million of that cap hit then a (very big) maybe - if I am a GM, I wouldn't touch the deal & the player at all cause (IMO) he reminds of LE, who had his best years prior to his retirement deal and has regress since he signed it (seems to have character issues as well - LE 2.0).

Edited July 10, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[DeNiro]

2 hours ago, grandmaster said:

Rather than helping Arizona out with their disastrous contract, I would rather give up our 9th OA for a good defenceman like a Dumba or use that 9th OA to cap dump LE & Rousell so we free up cash for Dougie Hamilton during free agency. Dougie Hamilton is a legitimate top 5 defenceman in the NHL.

Dumba is not worth the 9th OA not even close. He could be had for cheap since Minny is likely going to expose him.

 

So you’d rather throw away the 9th to dump cap for a player that won’t even sign here than get OEL for cheap?

 

How is that a better plan?

 

Edited July 10, 2021 by DeNiro

[DeNiro]

3 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Tampa is not (openly) trying to trade McDonough - so I don't know what your are trying to say; whereas, the Yotes are desperately trying to rid themselves of this deal.

 

As for OEL:  if the Yotes will eat 2 million of that cap hit then a (very big) maybe - if I am a GM, I wouldn't touch the deal & the player at all cause (IMO) he reminds of LE, who had his best years prior to his retirement deal and has regress since he signed it (seems to have character issues as well - LE 2.0).

You’re trying to claim his contract is an anchor. I’m saying at 2 million dollars less he’s every bit as valuable as McDonagh who just won his second cup in a row. OEL is also 3 years younger than McDonagh. There’s definitely room for a player like him on a contending team in a few years.

 

Comparing him to LE just shows how limited some Canucks fans scope is when looking at other players. These two are not even comparable. LE was 31 and coming off a season where his stats were inflated playing for a powerhouse Boston team. OELs stats are being deflated by an Arizona team that is just getting worse and worse.

 

OEL still has lots of game left. A change of scenery from that pathetic excuse for a franchise would probably revitalize him.

[ShawnAntoski]

11 hours ago, DeNiro said:

You’re trying to claim his contract is an anchor. I’m saying at 2 million dollars less he’s every bit as valuable as McDonagh who just won his second cup in a row. OEL is also 3 years younger than McDonagh. There’s definitely room for a player like him on a contending team in a few years.

 

Comparing him to LE just shows how limited some Canucks fans scope is when looking at other players. These two are not even comparable. LE was 31 and coming off a season where his stats were inflated playing for a powerhouse Boston team. OELs stats are being deflated by an Arizona team that is just getting worse and worse.

 

OEL still has lots of game left. A change of scenery from that pathetic excuse for a franchise would probably revitalize him.

You obviously, like OEL and I get it.  At this point, the team still has alot of unaswered questions: if Shaw can actually make a difference and the roster spots of the unproven youths are still in limbo.  Also no guarantee, he will perform here - Schmidt; and would (preferably) like to see what Shaw can establish first.

 

The comparison to LE is not limited to only LE - I would add, JMs’ uptick in performance (2.5 years of Vezina level) leading up to his (big) FA.  He was able to elevate his game prior to the contract and why not afterwards with the same coaching staff (until this year when Tocchet was fired) ?

 

Another point about McDonough: (imo) Yzerman made the deal with the Rags (a deal that included Miller) when the Tampas' core proved they were ready to compete; at this point, JB should just continue to build the core & depth through the draft, save his cap and only add when the core can prove it is time to add

 

If Shaw is able to make a real difference off the ice; the roster buys into his/new system; and has a strong season then look to add a player that can complement the core.  Perhaps after a year with Shaw, some of the (still) unknown lottery ticket(s) like OJ & the rest of the youths will be answered (?) - making an (overpayment) OEL type deal moot.

Edited July 10, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[wallstreetamigo]

2 hours ago, DeNiro said:

Ahh CDC, where a prospect who has played 8 NHL games is already a bonafide top four 30 point defenseman.

 

Never change.

No one said he already is one. He certainly has the potential to be one though. At 1/8th the cap hit and close to a decade younger, thats whats called a better risk/reward profile btw.

[ShawnAntoski]

2 hours ago, DeNiro said:

Ahh CDC, where a prospect who has played 8 NHL games is already a bonafide top four 30 point defenseman.

 

Never change.

A player under Green & Baumers tutelage.

[DeNiro]

9 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

No one said he already is one. He certainly has the potential to be one though. At 1/8th the cap hit and close to a decade younger, thats whats called a better risk/reward profile btw.

Yes but we need legit top 4 defensemen in the meantime. 
 

Fans complain that a roster with Rathbone pencilled in is a bottom 3 team and also complain when fans propose upgrading the top 4.

 

Canucks fans need to come to the realization that we’re not going to be signing top free agents. Guys like Hamilton are going to want to go to contenders. 
 

We need to find our upgrades through cheap creative trades. I’m not saying this would be the top of my list but OEL would be a very solid acquisition for this team at the right price. He would provide a veteran balance for young players like Hughes, Rathbone, and Juolevi especially if we’re about to lose Edler, Hamonic and Schmidt.

 

Edited July 10, 2021 by DeNiro

[wallstreetamigo]

11 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Yes but we need legit top 4 defensemen in the meantime. 
 

Fans complain that a roster with Rathbone pencilled in is a bottom 3 team and also complain when fans propose upgrading the top 4.

 

Canucks fans need to come to the realization that we’re not going to be signing top free agents. Guys like Hamilton are going to want to go to contenders. 
 

We need to find our upgrades through cheap creative trades. I’m not saying this would be the top of my list but OEL would be a very solid acquisition for this team at the right price. He would provide a veteran balance for young players like Hughes, Rathbone, and Juolevi especially if we’re about to lose Edler, Hamonic and Schmidt.

 

This is where I disagree.

 

The Canucks do need to upgrade their top 4 defense. But there is no reason to be in a rush to do it either. This roster is full of holes that need to be filled. They shouldnt be taking on 6 year contracts for 30 year old, declining players on the hope that it will help them in 2 to 3 years when (if everything goes right) they might be truly competitive.

 

Its better to be patient this offseason and look to next offseason as the time to make some big changes.

 

Whats the downside to playing guys like Rathbone and Juolevi? Maybe they show they cant handle it. But what if they can? And if they cant, make adjustments after you find that out, not before giving them that opportunity. 

 

If Benning had been fired, the new GM could have taken more than a 2021-22 or bust approach to this offseason. I fully expect that keeping Benning only to put him on the hot seat right away to drastically improve is going to backfire on Aquilini. Because desperate GM's do stupid short term things that turn into long term issues trying to save their job.

[ShawnAntoski]

11 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

This is where I disagree.

 

The Canucks do need to upgrade their top 4 defense. But there is no reason to be in a rush to do it either. This roster is full of holes that need to be filled. They shouldnt be taking on 6 year contracts for 30 year old, declining players on the hope that it will help them in 2 to 3 years when (if everything goes right) they might be truly competitive.

 

Its better to be patient this offseason and look to next offseason as the time to make some big changes.

 

Whats the downside to playing guys like Rathbone and Juolevi? Maybe they show they cant handle it. But what if they can? And if they cant, make adjustments after you find that out, not before giving them that opportunity. 

 

If Benning had been fired, the new GM could have taken more than a 2021-22 or bust approach to this offseason. I fully expect that keeping Benning only to put him on the hot seat right away to drastically improve is going to backfire on Aquilini. Because desperate GM's do stupid short term things that turn into long term issues trying to save their job.

I would add the state of flux with the coaching staff, due to there inability to create and establish a system were our current roster can be competitive in - without the need for elite goaltending to win.  Really, hoping Shaw can deliver.

Edited July 10, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[4petesake]

Just now, ShawnAntoski said:

I would add the state of flux with there inability to create and establish a system were our roster can be competitive in - without the need for elite goaltending to win.  Really, hoping Shaw can deliver.

My guess is that Shaw has a large impact on the team’s whole defensive system. It may not be overnight but the sooner the better obviously . I would imagine his opinion would hold a fair amount of weight with JB on which defencemen we pursue in trades/signings as well as the ED. 

[wallstreetamigo]

2 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

I would add the state of flux with the coaching staff, due to there inability to create and establish a system were our current roster can be competitive in - without the need for elite goaltending to win.  Really, hoping Shaw can deliver.

There needs to be serious improvement with the coaching, no question about it. The defense - whoever is on the roster come next season - needs a proper defensive structure. And that extends to the forwards being a lot better supporting both in the defensive zone and on the breakout.

 

If I never see Quinn Hughes have to double or triple pump an outlet pass only to give it away because the forwards arent giving him options it will mean our team will be more dangerous at both ends. In a good way, not this past few years bad way. 

[Me_]

2 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

There needs to be serious improvement with the coaching, no question about it. The defense - whoever is on the roster come next season - needs a proper defensive structure. And that extends to the forwards being a lot better supporting both in the defensive zone and on the breakout.

 

If I never see Quinn Hughes have to double or triple pump an outlet pass only to give it away because the forwards arent giving him options it will mean our team will be more dangerous at both ends. In a good way, not this past few years bad way. 

Interesting…

[FaninMex]

3 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

This is where I disagree.

 

The Canucks do need to upgrade their top 4 defense. But there is no reason to be in a rush to do it either. This roster is full of holes that need to be filled. They shouldnt be taking on 6 year contracts for 30 year old, declining players on the hope that it will help them in 2 to 3 years when (if everything goes right) they might be truly competitive.

 

Its better to be patient this offseason and look to next offseason as the time to make some big changes.

 

Whats the downside to playing guys like Rathbone and Juolevi? Maybe they show they cant handle it. But what if they can? And if they cant, make adjustments after you find that out, not before giving them that opportunity. 

 

If Benning had been fired, the new GM could have taken more than a 2021-22 or bust approach to this offseason. I fully expect that keeping Benning only to put him on the hot seat right away to drastically improve is going to backfire on Aquilini. Because desperate GM's do stupid short term things that turn into long term issues trying to save their job.

You and a 100 other fans do not know the word patient. You throw it around here then panic and ply banners around the city when it goes south.

 

The point is that we need to improve a little every year at this stage or we are just wasting a year of players like Miller and Horvat. Chasing a couple guys that get us better and allow a couple other prospects to develop is good or players will want out. I do not support going after OEL but I see the need to upgrade and wait for next year.

Edited July 10, 2021 by FaninMex

[grandmaster]

5 hours ago, Canuckster86 said:

Dumba is gonna be exposed in expansion, why would we offer 9th overall for a 180lb rhd. We need a solid defensive rhd, so sign Hamonic and then try to get someone else like Larsson or David Savard. 

I’m all for Larsson or Savard as options as well but why not get one of those AND Dumba? We currently have 3 defencemen signed (one of which might get traded).
 

Also. Don’t automatically assume Dumba will be exposed. The Wild are not sleeping here and I’m sure they have plans to ensure their top players will not be gone for nothing.  The Canucks will not be the only ones looking too. 
 

Generally a top 4 D will cost you a first. I’m not sure they will let him go for less. Don’t forget they were wanting Boeser a not so long ago and Boeser is worth far more than a 9th OA.
 

 

[King Heffy]

3 hours ago, grandmaster said:

I’m all for Larsson or Savard as options as well but why not get one of those AND Dumba? We currently have 3 defencemen signed (one of which might get traded).
 

Also. Don’t automatically assume Dumba will be exposed. The Wild are not sleeping here and I’m sure they have plans to ensure their top players will not be gone for nothing.  The Canucks will not be the only ones looking too. 
 

Generally a top 4 D will cost you a first. I’m not sure they will let him go for less. Don’t forget they were wanting Boeser a not so long ago and Boeser is worth far more than a 9th OA.
 

 

Why not get both of them and stay away from Dumba?  We need guys who are strong in their own zone.

[JM_]

10 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Why not get both of them and stay away from Dumba?  We need guys who are strong in their own zone.

Hughes makes Dumba redundant. Rathbone maybe as well, we'll see. 

[86Viking]

4 hours ago, grandmaster said:

I’m all for Larsson or Savard as options as well but why not get one of those AND Dumba? We currently have 3 defencemen signed (one of which might get traded).
 

Also. Don’t automatically assume Dumba will be exposed. The Wild are not sleeping here and I’m sure they have plans to ensure their top players will not be gone for nothing.  The Canucks will not be the only ones looking too. 
 

Generally a top 4 D will cost you a first. I’m not sure they will let him go for less. Don’t forget they were wanting Boeser a not so long ago and Boeser is worth far more than a 9th OA.
 

 

If OJ could make an impact this year and take a step to being a full time regular contributor maybe he could be paired with Dumba? I don't see a slight player like Dumba being the RHD answer to playing with Hughes or Rathbone (if he pans out as NHL regular, too soon still). We have some slender D, we need to add some size to compliment them and a 180lb Dumba is not my ideal choice. Plus, Dumba has been kind of on the decline no?

[SilentSam]

11 hours ago, Me_ said:

Really not bad at all…

 

HUGHES - HAMONIC

OEL - MYERS

JUOLEVI - RATHBONE

That looks good to me.

I am assuming that the new defensive strategy will allow the 5OA16 to become the 5OA16 and very fast at that…

 

Could be huge.

 

Then perhaps we can move Joulevi, to add Zadorov .

Money needs to move off the offensive side before we truly upgrade our D.

Eriksson Sutter Virtannen Rousell.. ect ect.

 

I know we’re all hoping for the best possible scenarios here, but true creativity and sure minds are needed for it to happen.

 

ive said this before,   None of us would pay a house building contractor for any skills or tools he did not bring to build a house.

Why in hell do players feel it’s ok to sign a contract and not live up to their own expectations.

Something in contract structure needs to change.

 

perhaps it is slowly,  RFA’s are getting what were a UFA type contract, it seems a players prime is now considered anywhere from 21- 27 years of age.  Not many teams are taking the 30 year old players seriously with their ability to deliver there best hockey to 35 years old anymore.

perhaps I’m just spitting chicklets here, but some athletes integrity is short term…. That, or they just don’t feel the drive that young men possess in this game.

 

 

[wallstreetamigo]

7 hours ago, FaninMex said:

You and a 100 other fans do not know the word patient. You throw it around here then panic and ply banners around the city when it goes south.

 

The point is that we need to improve a little every year at this stage or we are just wasting a year of players like Miller and Horvat. Chasing a couple guys that get us better and allow a couple other prospects to develop is good or players will want out. I do not support going after OEL but I see the need to upgrade and wait for next year.

When did I say dont upgrade where they can? I said its not the year to make more long term contract mistakes.

 

I have preached patient and methodical for the last 10 years. So I am probably more patient than you seem to think. I dont care if the Canucks make the playoffs this year or not. Felt the same way every year Benning has been here because its more important to have sustainable success ratger than year by year reactionary judgment that, as we have seen, has not served the Canucks well under Benning.

 

Never flown a banner btw.

[ShawnAntoski]

10 hours ago, 4petesake said:

My guess is that Shaw has a large impact on the team’s whole defensive system. It may not be overnight but the sooner the better obviously . I would imagine his opinion would hold a fair amount of weight with JB on which defencemen we pursue in trades/signings as well as the ED. 

Hope so cause (I would argue) in the past, Green probably had a say on personel as well - really hoping that Shaw can make a difference and be given a chance to establish a system before any roster tweaking(s) takes place.

Edited July 10, 2021 by ShawnAntoski