Should the Canucks walk away from Toffoli and Markstrom at the end of this season?

[Ballisticsports.]

3 hours ago, DarkIndianRises said:

I'd be willing to keep Stecher if the Canucks can unload Benn.       

 

However - it would have to work from a cap perspective (i.e. Benn comes off the books after this season and so this will help us save money for Pettersson and Hughes.  Signing Stecher makes sense only if the Canucks have a long term plan in place for being able to re-up Pettersson and Hughes).

Benn is not a big savings, He makes what $2m per year, and Canucks will need another D to replace him, won't go to EP and Hughes, you still need a roster

[Disgruntler]

Lot of "trade Boeser" talk again. Do that and see what Petey does.

[messier's_elbow]

Signing Toffoli would be a mistake. If there was no cap sure. Would be great. We have Boeser, Podkolzin, Virtanen and Lind. I don’t think we need Toffoli as much as we need cap relief to sign our 2 young stars and then re sign Horvat as well. 

[kloubek]

21 minutes ago, messier's_elbow said:

Signing Toffoli would be a mistake. If there was no cap sure. Would be great. We have Boeser, Podkolzin, Virtanen and Lind. I don’t think we need Toffoli as much as we need cap relief to sign our 2 young stars and then re sign Horvat as well. 

Yes we do need that cap relief. 

 

I would honestly rather see us trade Virtanen and his salary+raise, then use those savings for TT. With that said, neither showed well these playoffs.

[Drop Em]

23 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

I meant to say speed not need.

 

I also meant overall just pointed out a few in key positions, like the top 6. It's a team problem overall but more concerning with the D and top 6.

 

Roussel wasn't giving many people trouble with his speed. We saw vs Vegas what speed mixed in with size does. Only Motte's speed was noticeably effective out of the bottom 6 vs Vegas. If we're considering Roussel as fast it shows how problematic our speed issues are.

 

Our D-core isn't built to handle that much speed either which was an issue. We're not as fast, physical or skilled with our D. Need more skill on top of Hughes and more D that are physical presences. 

 

Perhaps I have a higher bar of what I find is faster but we've shown we need to get faster overall. We could use more dynamic skaters too, we only really got Hughes/Petey in that regard.

 

Nothing is gonna come up for it until youngsters come up or till we get cap, unless we make trades.

I actually agree with you in that the team as a WHOLE, needs a lot more speed. But you first mentioned that Motte was the only good skater on the bottom 6, and I disagreed because Roussel is also a good skater, especially compared to the other guys in OUR bottom 6. You also have to remember that he's coming off a torn ACL, which usually takes at least a year before you come back to even close to where you were. And he looked much faster in the playoffs than what he did during the regular season when he was just coming back from his injury. But neither of them are very big, so they lack the impact larger players make when they have wheels. In my opinion it wasn't Roussel's skating that was keeping him from being effective though, it was his mouth. He tried to get Vegas off their game with his mind games, and ended up working in reverse. 

 

The team has to bigger AND faster throughout their lineup. And to be honest, I see some decent/good skaters in their top prospects, but I don't see very much size.....and the ELITE teams have many guys with a combination of one or the other and usually BOTH.

[Patel Bure]

3 hours ago, Disgruntler said:

Lot of "trade Boeser" talk again. Do that and see what Petey does.

Petey is professional enough to understand that this is business.  Give Pettersson Toffoli and Podkolzin and see what Petey does.   Make sense?

 

Losing Boeser would suck, but recouping a 2020 1st, along with a good prospect lost in the Toffoli deal (Madden), AND clearing 5.85 million in cap space would be huge.  
 

Toffoli has shortcomings, but is still a legit top 6 forward in the NHL.  Virtanen also has warts but was on pace to scoring 20 goals last season with very limited 3rd line minutes.  And did I mention that we’d be getting Podkolzin possibly as early as April next season?

 

Trust me mate - our depth on RW would be the least of our issues.    

Edited September 8, 2020 by DarkIndianRises

[I Wont Sell The Team]

For me let Markstrom walk as I don't want to 30 year old, 6 million dollar netminder for 5 or 6 years. That just has alarm bells ringing in terms of future cap and player decline.

 

Try and sign TT to a 3 or 4 year contract that would enable you to trade Boeser for a solid young defenceman that would eat up Tanev minutes thus allowing the team to walk from him.

[Junkyard Dog]

3 hours ago, Drop Em said:

I actually agree with you in that the team as a WHOLE, needs a lot more speed. But you first mentioned that Motte was the only good skater on the bottom 6, and I disagreed because Roussel is also a good skater, especially compared to the other guys in OUR bottom 6. You also have to remember that he's coming off a torn ACL, which usually takes at least a year before you come back to even close to where you were. And he looked much faster in the playoffs than what he did during the regular season when he was just coming back from his injury. But neither of them are very big, so they lack the impact larger players make when they have wheels. In my opinion it wasn't Roussel's skating that was keeping him from being effective though, it was his mouth. He tried to get Vegas off their game with his mind games, and ended up working in reverse. 

 

The team has to bigger AND faster throughout their lineup. And to be honest, I see some decent/good skaters in their top prospects, but I don't see very much size.....and the ELITE teams have many guys with a combination of one or the other and usually BOTH.

You make good points with Roussel's torn ACL. Maybe next season maybe a better determination of his speed but I don't think he was effective as you say personally this year.  I also am in agreement that Roussel's mouth landed him in more trouble than it should.

 

Also compared to most of our bottom 6 yeah Roussel is a better skater but that didn't bode well for us. Perhaps he looked faster due to our lack of speed overall.

 

Overall the main concerns with speed, or how to handle it, lies with our D-core and top 6. Need a d-core that can counter speed and players that can help our stars in Petey/Hughes IMO bottom 6/D-core needs to get faster and more bigger/physical and the D-core needs another skilled player along side Hughes. Maybe OJ/Rath fill the skill gap but the physical gap is more concerning so I agree with you there in the size/physicality gap. 

 

Perhaps changes our made with trades.

 

It seems like we agree on a lot of things.

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, DarkIndianRises said:

Petey is professional enough to understand that this is business.  Give Pettersson Toffoli and Podkolzin and see what Petey does.   Make sense?

 

Losing Boeser would suck, but recouping a 2020 1st, along with a good prospect lost in the Toffoli deal (Madden), AND clearing 5.85 million in cap space would be huge.  
 

Toffoli has shortcomings, but is still a legit top 6 forward in the NHL.  Virtanen also has warts but was on pace to scoring 20 goals last season with very limited 3rd line minutes.  And did I mention that we’d be getting Podkolzin possibly as early as April next season?

 

Trust me mate - our depth on RW would be the least of our issues.    

Trading BB for picks would be ludicrous.   The only reasons we’d trade him is for a similar  age legitimate defense either side but preferably RHD and I personally wouldn’t do that unless it was rock solid.   BB game has grown he’s not a one trick pony or a poor skater as some posters seem to think he is (guess Horvat is too then as they are about the same).  
 

If we need picks trade Pearson and Demko.   Personally after those three games I’m willing to leave Markstrom.   Modest risk high reward.   With Markstrom out again and not sitting on the bench in elimination games you know he’s not just tired.   If it’s his knees again then definitely do this.  Look at MAF sitting on the bench with his 7 million dollar salary.   He’s 35ish that could easily be Markstrom too his final year or two of his next deal.   Given how fickle the position is nobody knows how this will work out but both merits.  By going with Demko we have many years of relief compared to Markstrom and a capable back-up for him.   I’d still not sign TT or anyone for more then one year if we need to plug some holes or shore anything else up.   Because EP and QHs will likely cost 16-20.   TT is just tied up cap space in a forward group that’s fine.   We need money reserved for our D.   Even if OJ makes it into the top four and pushes Edler down to the third pairing the R side needs another Myers type signing.   Next year there is 4/6 that could go to market.  Jump on that if we can.   
 

Podz might not be anything but a gritty good third liner or middle six forward.   His offense most definitely hasn’t caught up to his ability to get the puck ... think he could be a good compliment to a top six but that’s yet to be seen.   Sign JV to one year.   Even at 3million he’s going to get more points then anyone else in our bottom six.  

 

Edit.:   I’m also fine with keeping both goalies for next years run.   Demko has proved that he can be relied on for back to backs or a platoon like playoffs.   Goalies and centres are our team strengths at the moment - two things that win cups.    As long as we trade Demko before the ED. 

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by IBatch

[Law of Goalies]

On 9/7/2020 at 3:32 PM, AnotherCanucksFan said:

I'd suggest before we get ahead of ourselves that we consider:

• we hadn't got to the playoffs in FIVE years
• we hadn't one a single playoff game in NINE years. The last time we'd won a playoff game was in the 2011 Stanley Cup finals.
• we played a pandemic shorted season

Why does it matter? Because we have to be very careful about building on and not breaking team chemistry. We can get excited because we got to round 2 in the playoffs, but it took a pandemic shortened season and no crowd or family distractions to get us there. We don't even know if we would have made the playoffs this year if it had been a full year and then how we would have faired after playing all those extra games.

 

The team had months off to heal injuries, rest their bodies, etc. Not a typical season or playoffs. We can build on chemistry, but I wouldn't rush to relying on the backup goalie after the first playoff wins in nine years. I think we need to try and keep both goalies and then trade a defensemen or two away to improve in that area.

 

Bro..I'm pretty sure we won 2 games in the Calgary series in 2015. 

[IBatch]

17 hours ago, higgyfan said:

Maybe throw  a sweetener.  The team doesn't have much in the way of picks, so it would have to be a roster player or prospect.  I will get clobbered for this, but I would suggest Virtanen straight up; no retention for Loui's contract.  The team really needs to reclaim that 6M right now.

If that’s all it takes you do that and run.  The 7.5 million in cap space could be used a little now and some saved for later.  Hoffman would be a nice upgrade from TT for example or Pearson for that matter as he plays both sides.   We could possibly afford both TT and Hoffman if we dumped LEs contract and went with Demko,  but need to save money EP and QHs and one more top for D.   This years D isn’t anything special, Brodie would be ok. - could do that but would rather wait until the following year. 

[IBatch]

6 hours ago, kloubek said:

Yes we do need that cap relief. 

 

I would honestly rather see us trade Virtanen and his salary+raise, then use those savings for TT. With that said, neither showed well these playoffs.

Why not keep JV and his 1 million raise and play him instead?  In the bottom six he’s reasonably priced for 20/20 ... actually a good deal. 

[Patel Bure]

7 hours ago, IBatch said:

Trading BB for picks would be ludicrous.   The only reasons we’d trade him is for a similar  age legitimate defense either side but preferably RHD and I personally wouldn’t do that unless it was rock solid.   BB game has grown he’s not a one trick pony or a poor skater as some posters seem to think he is (guess Horvat is too then as they are about the same).  
 

If we need picks trade Pearson and Demko.   Personally after those three games I’m willing to leave Markstrom.   Modest risk high reward.   With Markstrom out again and not sitting on the bench in elimination games you know he’s not just tired.   If it’s his knees again then definitely do this.  Look at MAF sitting on the bench with his 7 million dollar salary.   He’s 35ish that could easily be Markstrom too his final year or two of his next deal.   Given how fickle the position is nobody knows how this will work out but both merits.  By going with Demko we have many years of relief compared to Markstrom and a capable back-up for him.   I’d still not sign TT or anyone for more then one year if we need to plug some holes or shore anything else up.   Because EP and QHs will likely cost 16-20.   TT is just tied up cap space in a forward group that’s fine.   We need money reserved for our D.   Even if OJ makes it into the top four and pushes Edler down to the third pairing the R side needs another Myers type signing.   Next year there is 4/6 that could go to market.  Jump on that if we can.   
 

Podz might not be anything but a gritty good third liner or middle six forward.   His offense most definitely hasn’t caught up to his ability to get the puck ... think he could be a good compliment to a top six but that’s yet to be seen.   Sign JV to one year.   Even at 3million he’s going to get more points then anyone else in our bottom six.  

 

Edit.:   I’m also fine with keeping both goalies for next years run.   Demko has proved that he can be relied on for back to backs or a platoon like playoffs.   Goalies and centres are our team strengths at the moment - two things that win cups.    As long as we trade Demko before the ED. 

 

I wouldn't just move Boeser for picks.   I would move Boeser for a 2020 1st rounder AND a good prospect that is already tracking really well.    So - not only do we clear 5.85 million in cap space (minus the cap hit of the elite prospect), but we'd also recoup the loss of our first from the Miller deal and the good prospect lost in the Toffoli deal (Madden).   On top of that, we increase our chances of landing a young defensive stud in the future

 

I don't want to trade Boeser because I don't like him as a player (for the record, I agree with everything that you're saying about Boeser).    I am interested in at least exploring the idea of trading Boeser because.....

 

1) I don't think there is that much of a difference in level between Toffoli and Boeser.   Both are top 6 forwards, and both will produce well playing alongside Pettersson or Horvat.   Letting Toffoli walk = no return on assets.    Trading Boeser = getting assets in return.

 

2) I think it's worth taking a calculated risk on Virtanen in terms of him being able to fill in on the top 6.   Virtanen has consistency issues, but we can't ignore the fact that he was on pace to scoring 20 goals with limited 3rd line minutes.    

 

3) Not sure if you've been following Podkolzin much but he's tracking extremely well.   I'll eat my hat if this guy isn't a top 6 forward.   Penciling in Podkolzin on the top 6 is a very safe bet.

 

4) Replacing Markstrom with a good solid back up that could complement Demko would save us atleast 3 million or so in cap.   Signing Markstrom pretty much guarantees that we'd lose Demko in the expansion draft.  Given the playoffs that Demko just had, there's no way a team passes on him.   There's also no way that Markstrom signs with us without wanting an NMC as to avoid being lost in expansion.  

[Disgruntler]

12 hours ago, DarkIndianRises said:

Petey is professional enough to understand that this is business.  Give Pettersson Toffoli and Podkolzin and see what Petey does.   Make sense?

 

Losing Boeser would suck, but recouping a 2020 1st, along with a good prospect lost in the Toffoli deal (Madden), AND clearing 5.85 million in cap space would be huge.  
 

Toffoli has shortcomings, but is still a legit top 6 forward in the NHL.  Virtanen also has warts but was on pace to scoring 20 goals last season with very limited 3rd line minutes.  And did I mention that we’d be getting Podkolzin possibly as early as April next season?

 

Trust me mate - our depth on RW would be the least of our issues.    

Oh, no argument here. They are still humans though, and their friendship seems pretty intense. Ultimately, I'm down for whatever makes the team better, and getting some good value back as you suggest looks good to me.

[Nucks-4-Life]

Everyone needs to calm down with the hype on Podkolzin. You need to temper expectations, otherwise you will be disappointed.

 

I've been following this team long enough to remember watching tape on guys like Shirokov, Jensen, etc. and this board thinking they are going to immediately be impact players.

 

Benning is not a fool and will not part with a proven entity (like Boeser or Virtanen) for an unproven rookie.

 

Podkolzin will have to show his worth during camp just like everyone else.

[Nucker 67]

11 hours ago, T.Shelby said:

For me let Markstrom walk as I don't want to 30 year old, 6 million dollar netminder for 5 or 6 years. That just has alarm bells ringing in terms of future cap and player decline.

 

Try and sign TT to a 3 or 4 year contract that would enable you to trade Boeser for a solid young defenceman that would eat up Tanev minutes thus allowing the team to walk from him.

That's what I'm afraid of. Markstrom will be 31 in January, and if he's got 5 years or more at $6, I see that possibly becoming an anchor at the worst time, especially if injuries are re-occurring as he gets older. 5 years ago Loui Eriksson was a top 6 player who scored 30 goals lol  

 

It's a really tough decision, Markstom was the MVP last season and pretty much got them to the 2nd Round.  

 

[Patel Bure]

2 hours ago, Nucks-4-Life said:

Everyone needs to calm down with the hype on Podkolzin. You need to temper expectations, otherwise you will be disappointed.

 

I've been following this team long enough to remember watching tape on guys like Shirokov, Jensen, etc. and this board thinking they are going to immediately be impact players.

 

Benning is not a fool and will not part with a proven entity (like Boeser or Virtanen) for an unproven rookie.

 

Podkolzin will have to show his worth during camp just like everyone else.

With respect to Shirokov and Jensen, Podkolzin is a MUCH more talented and heralded pick.    I understand your point however.

 

Don’t me wrong - I wasn’t suggesting that we move Brock or Virtanen and pin our hopes on a kid.

 

All I’m saying is that

 

xxx-Toffoli

xxx-Boeser or Virtanen

xxx-Eriksson (Podkolzin in April)

xxx-MacEwen

 

Is still pretty good RW depth.   On top of that, moving Boeser for a 2020 1st and a good prospect not only clears 5.85 million in cap, but also gives us two good opportunities to draft and develop what would hopefully be a potential top pairing right sided all situations defenseman (our biggest long term organizational need in my opinion).       Then, If you trade Sutter + 2021 1st + 7th rounder for a 6th rounder (Marleau to Carolina equivalent deal......I’m assuming that attempting to trade Eriksson is a lost cause right now), you clear 4.375 million in cap.  
 

10 million in extra cap to re-up all of Tanev, Toffoli, Virtanen, Gaudette, and Motte, and a cheap vet back-up (assuming that you let Markstrom go).  I’m also hoping that we could find a way to keep Stecher, but it’s more likely that we’d have to give him the Hutton treatment.

 

Miller-Pettersson-Toffoli

Pearson-Horvat-Eriksson (Podkolzin replacing Eriksson)

Motte-Gaudette-Virtanen 

Roussel-Beagle-MacEwen

 

Edler-Myers

Hughes-Tanev

Juolevi-Benn (Tryamkin replacing Benn)

 

Rafferty

 

Demko
VetBackUp

Not only have you become cap compliant, but you’re also fielding a competitive team while also having recouped the first and the good prospect lost in the Miller and Toffoli deals (one or both of which can hopefully turn into a top pairing all situations right sided defenseman one day).

 

Furthermore - IF Podkolzin and Tryamkin return in April, those could be two potentially huge additions to the line-up if they’re up for the challenge.

ps___________________for whatever it’s worth, I think Benning will do everything in his power to keep both Toffoli and Brock for next season.    I think Benning will do whatever he can to field the most competitive team possible next season knowing that 2021-2022 could see a slight regression due to our cap situation.    With that in mind, I see a parallel of sorts to Chicago from 2008-2011.  
 

2008 Hawks / 2019 Canucks = missed playoffs but overachieved.

2009 Hawks / 2020 Canucks = got past first round

2010 Hawks / 2021 Canucks = elite level results

2011 Hawks / 2022 Canucks = regression but very bright future once young players in the system develop.
 

Again - I’m not saying that we’ll win the cup next year as the Hawks did in 2010, but I can definitely see Benning taking a more aggressive stance (at the possible expense of our future) due to EP, QH, and TD being on ELC’s and/or cap friendly bridge deals and trying to take advantage of that.

 

That’s why I think it’s more likely that Benning will try and move Virtanen (Kasperi Kapanen as the comparable) to get in on the first round of 2020 rather than moving Boeser.   I think both Sutter and Virtanen will be gone and the Canucks will sign Toffoli and Tanev.   
 

Next Season “aggressive Benning.”

 

Miller-Pettersson-Boeser

Pearson-Horvat-Toffoli

Motte-Gaudette-MacEwen (Podkolzin in April)

Roussel-Beagle-Eriksson (MacEwen in April)

 

Edler-Myers

Hughes-Tanev

Juolevi-Benn (Tryamkin in April, pushing Benn from the line-up)

 

Demko

VetBackUp

Edited September 8, 2020 by DarkIndianRises

[Lancaster]

Markstrom is currently the better goalie.  But 2-3 years from now, Demko might be about the same level.

In any case, Markstrom now isn't worth 5 million more than Demko currently.  Let Tanev walk too.... suddenly the Canucks have like 9-11 million available.  

 

If the Canucks can somehow get Pietrangelo as an UFA.... Demko + Pietrangelo >>> Markstrom + Tanev.  

[Drop Em]

12 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

You make good points with Roussel's torn ACL. Maybe next season maybe a better determination of his speed but I don't think he was effective as you say personally this year.  I also am in agreement that Roussel's mouth landed him in more trouble than it should.

 

Also compared to most of our bottom 6 yeah Roussel is a better skater but that didn't bode well for us. Perhaps he looked faster due to our lack of speed overall.

 

Overall the main concerns with speed, or how to handle it, lies with our D-core and top 6. Need a d-core that can counter speed and players that can help our stars in Petey/Hughes IMO bottom 6/D-core needs to get faster and more bigger/physical and the D-core needs another skilled player along side Hughes. Maybe OJ/Rath fill the skill gap but the physical gap is more concerning so I agree with you there in the size/physicality gap. 

 

Perhaps changes our made with trades.

 

It seems like we agree on a lot of things.

I never said he was effective. Lol.....although he can be. I just said that he skates pretty well for a bottom 6 guy on this team, especially when you compare him to other bottom 6 guys like Sutter, Beagle and Eriksson. And you're right, it's all comparable, as on most teams he probably wouldn't be one of their better skaters. But on a team with the 3 slugs I just mentioned, how could he not look faster than what he probably is?

I'm sure that his ACL recovery prevented him from being able to skate as well as he did/can. But he's also going to be 31 when next year starts, so it's not like he's going to be getting any faster than he was before the injury anyways. Personally I'd dump him in a trade as soon as I could, and not just for the cap relief that getting rid of him for a younger, more physical (and hopefully faster) guy could bring. I like the fact that he's a gritty in your face kind of guy, but he's too small to play the heavy hitting game that I think we could use, especially on a team that already lacks size.

[BPA]

12 minutes ago, Lancaster said:

 

If the Canucks can somehow get Pietrangelo as an UFA.... Demko + Pietrangelo >>> Markstrom + Tanev.  

When u put it that way.  I agree.  Swing for the fences and try to get Pietrangelo.