[Proposal] Canucks and Islanders - Brock Boeser for Noah Dobson + ??? (Contingent on Toffoli signing)

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

 

So here is my dreamworld proposal- Jake signs a very team friendly 1 year contract.  No arb-just wants to prove he's a better player than he's shown to stay in VAN.  Dreaming I know.

 

BUT JB has got to get some cap relief too so.....

Well isn’t it cap relief by signing JV to a one year bridge and letting TT walk?   It is from where I’m sitting.   So you may get your dream world yet as it’s definitely a possibility.   The arithmetic shows we can sign all our guys if we do three things.   Trade Pearson.  Let Stetcher go ala Hutton, don’t sign Fanta or Leivo and that’s with Ferland starting in the LTIR.   It’s not as difficult as some are making it out to be.  That’s 5.75 x 5 JM,  5 x 5 TT,  5 x 3 Tanev.    The crux is will JM not sign without a NMC.  The one I’m suggesting is a full NTC for three years then a limited one the last two.   Still I wouldn’t do this.  Think our money is better spent on defense then TT.  
 

One trade only Pearson.   If not him then JV plus a minor one. 

[Angry Goose]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

Well isn’t it cap relief by signing JV to a one year bridge and letting TT walk?   It is from where I’m sitting.   So you may get your dream world yet as it’s definitely a possibility.   The arithmetic shows we can sign all our guys if we do three things.   Trade Pearson.  Let Stetcher go ala Hutton, don’t sign Fanta or Leivo and that’s with Ferland starting in the LTIR.   It’s not as difficult as some are making it out to be.  That’s 5.75 x 5 JM,  5 x 5 TT,  5 x 3 Tanev.    The crux is will JM not sign without a NMC.  The one I’m suggesting is a full NTC for three years then a limited one the last two.   Still I wouldn’t do this.  Think our money is better spent on defense then TT.  
 

One trade only Pearson.   If not him then JV plus a minor one. 

I don't think there's any chance of signing TT if you trade TP.  

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, mll said:

Ferland wants to continue to play per Drance.  He points out that he can seek a 2nd opinion and says the Canucks can't game plan as if they'll have the 3.5M available.

 

Btw if Ferland goes on LTIR they can't use up the full 3.5M or they won't be able to recall players from the AHL or add someone like Podkolzin mid-season.  When a team goes in LTIR they can't bank cap space, so they have to be under the cap by the player's full cap hit to be able to add him.  And under LTIR the performance bonus that is still attainable has to be covered.  

 

When a team is not in LTIR and starts the season 300K under the cap after 2 days they have enough to recall a 900K cap hit for 1 day.  2 days of 300K banked + the 300K for the day = 1 day at 900K.  

 

Under LTIR there is no cap space banked.  So the team has to be under the cap by the full cap hit including the performance bonus still attainable.  For example a Juolevi recall is no longer 863K (and possibly less if there is banked cap space similar to example above) but 1.7M in full because of his performance bonus.  Similar issue for Podkolzin if they wish to add him mid-season.    

LTIR lessons thanks mill.  Yes it’s convulated.   Worse case a team has to run a shortened bench for a game day if they go over (it’s happened) or just thin the roster down and don’t have so many signed guys to stay under.  The arithmetic still works though.   Don’t re-sign Leivo, Fanta or Stetcher, trade Pearson or Sutter,  and the Canucks can afford to sign the rest.   I didn’t do the excel sheet but the person that did knows his stuff. Overages covered etc and we still meet the minimum roster players required all new guys salaries calculated in.  OJ gets a promotion, Bear or Motte plays in Pearson’s spot as I’m assuming he’d be the easier of the two too trade.   Also the new bonus overages can be differed no?   As far as what I’d actually like them to do is a lot different:

 

Don’t sign JM unless he’s ok with a 5.5 ish 4 year deal with a full NTC this year after that a limited 15 team one.  Demko is our future no need to make it impossible to keep him long term.   Re-sign JV one year 1 million raise - wants more trade him,  re-sign Fanta and trade Benn, or just don’t re-sign Fanta.  DONT sign TT (not where we should be spending cap ATM).     Offer Hamonic or Brodie a 4 x 4 deal.  If they don’t take it - qualify Stecher.   Offer Tanev a one year flat cap deal.  SAVE CAP for next season when we really will need it and can have way better Ds that could be available.  Hamilton (id rather have a go at him over AP - anyone notice how slow he was?) Brodin, Petry plus plus plus.    IF Hamilton or Brodin go to market we could afford either one easily with both Edler and Tanev off the books at the same time. 

 

Im in the camp that wants to save cap for the future and feel committing to JM is low risk low reward and definitely TT is a mistake -  more then we need to spend with the wingers right and   LE/Sutter 2.0 potential.  We need at least one more high quality defenseman (agree with  Larkins comments and feel the same - he thinks not top four but top pairing is what we need).   Think we can either do that or go 2011 plus QHs. 
 

The 2011 team was 6 top four Ds, we either need that or an elite 26 min a game top line, a legitimate second pairing and a serviceable third pairing.   Edler and Tanev are fine as long as they become the third pairing over time and their salaries will have to start reflecting that too.- that’s expensive isn’t it.   Our team will have to invest 25ish  million at least to get one of these models  - and really we can start now but plan for the splash next season.   Gives the fringe guys a chance to beat out guys too.   Next year we should be checking out Rafferty, Lind, Podz,  and especially OJ. 
 

Edited September 12, 2020 by IBatch

[IBatch]

6 hours ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

I don't think there's any chance of signing TT if you trade TP.  

Well we could always sign TT first and then trade Pearson.   Can have 1billion in cap during the off-season if you want just have to make it work before game one or get penalized a players until you make it work.   I’m not on-board with signing him anyways but it’s not nearly as hard to do as some people realize.  Trading Bear isn’t as easy - might as well use him (and Motte) while we wait for our prospects and cap to go away organically. 

[Angry Goose]

9 hours ago, IBatch said:

Well we could always sign TT first and then trade Pearson.   Can have 1billion in cap during the off-season if you want just have to make it work before game one or get penalized a players until you make it work.   I’m not on-board with signing him anyways but it’s not nearly as hard to do as some people realize.  Trading Bear isn’t as easy - might as well use him (and Motte) while we wait for our prospects and cap to go away organically. 

Heh maybe down the road if Pearson doesn't re-sign but again I don't think you can entice TT to sign here if you're trading his good buddy away.  

 

If you'd prefer not TT that's an option too.  What would your top 6 look like w/o TT and TP?

[poet]

I had thought about Boeser for Dobson a while back. But the Isles have RFA hell, as has been pointed out.

 

Some people have mentioned Boeser for Dumba, but I think we wouldn’t want to take salary back.

 

How about Boeser for Ty Smith?

 

we do desperately need help in the defensive prospect department...

[mll]

26 minutes ago, poet said:

I had thought about Boeser for Dobson a while back. But the Isles have RFA hell, as has been pointed out.

 

Some people have mentioned Boeser for Dumba, but I think we wouldn’t want to take salary back.

 

How about Boeser for Ty Smith?

 

we do desperately need help in the defensive prospect department...

 

Guerin is using Dumba as trade chip to get a top line centre.  He calls their top-4 elite and prefers to keep them intact but could break them up to get that much needed top line C.  Guerin says he normally prefers to draft BPA but will see with Brackett as they may need to draft a C.  He doesn't think they have anyone in the system that projects as a top line C.  It makes little sense for him to use one of his best trade chip to bring in a winger.  They don't even have a playmaker to set him up while in Vancouver he gets to play with Pettersson. 

 

NJD' biggest weakness is defence and Ty Smith is their best D prospect.  It's much harder to find Ds than it is to find wingers.   A trade is more likely to happen with a team that has an excess of Ds and are looking for wingers rather than a team that lacks high end Ds.

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by mll

[flickyoursedin]

Yeah isles need his cheap salary with all the RFA money they’ll have to give out. The only chance you have to get Dobson is if you take an offset/cap dump back so they can make it work. They’ll ask Boeser for Dobson and Ladd.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

Heh maybe down the road if Pearson doesn't re-sign but again I don't think you can entice TT to sign here if you're trading his good buddy away.  

 

If you'd prefer not TT that's an option too.  What would your top 6 look like w/o TT and TP?

Point is TT doesn’t have a choice if he signs here and then JB trades Pearson.   These are grown ups -  Dahlen and EP were kids and nothing bad happened when he was sent packing.  It’s called A JOB. 
 

   We can’t afford everyone, JB has made it plenty clear - a grade three C level arithmetic student could figure out we can’t fit everyone under the cap.  And if what JB is saying is true (he’s not interested in trading prospects and picks to save cap space) you have to consider who’s actually not a cap dump (in that we have to add picks/prospects).  Sutter?  Dreaming.   He’s stays.   Roussel ? Well maybe ... but two more years - doubt it.  Bear ... twice cleared waivers... It’s JV ( not close to enough savings) Pearson (Bingo) and BB.   Of those three Pearson definitely isn’t in our long term plans, his stock is high - perfect trade.  TT IS an upgrade over Pearson.   So understand they’d try and sign him.  TT says he’d liked to stay but also said it depends on the offer basically. 
 

Just showing how it could work.   Free agency happens in less then a month.    JB can spend 100 million if he wants before the season starts.   It’s either Pearson and the other guys I mentioned or BB leaving if we sign TT.  I’m hoping he doesn’t because why bother when defense is our main issue.   Plus EP and QHs will be getting boffo raises ... 

[Angry Goose]

29 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Point is TT doesn’t have a choice if he signs here and then JB trades Pearson.   These are grown ups -  Dahlen and EP were kids and nothing bad happened when he was sent packing.  It’s called A JOB. 
 

Just showing how it could work.  

I don't think that's how you run an organization, especially with someone you presumably just re-signed.  

 

In any event, I like TP so I'd rather see the Canucks keep him and try to re-sign TT anyways.  

[IBatch]

9 minutes ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

I don't think that's how you run an organization, especially with someone you presumably just re-signed.  

 

In any event, I like TP so I'd rather see the Canucks keep him and try to re-sign TT anyways.  
 

Pearson is signed for one more year.   Do you really think TT staying in Vancouver hinges on what happens to him?   What if he’s hitting it off with Sutts like no tomorrow?  Should we keep him just in case too?  If a 19 year olds best friend can deal with losing his best friend I’m sure a couple soon to be 28 year olds can deal with it. Don’t fool yourself it’s coming down to money - if TT doesn’t think whatever offer he might get is fair he will be gone, and he will definitely know Pearson might be the cap casualty if he does sign. 

[Angry Goose]

8 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Pearson is signed for one more year.   Do you really think TT staying in Vancouver hinges on what happens to him?   What if he’s hitting it off with Sutts like no tomorrow?  Should we keep him just in case too?  If a 19 year olds best friend can deal with losing his best friend I’m sure a couple soon to be 28 year olds can deal with it. Don’t fool yourself it’s coming down to money - if TT doesn’t think whatever offer he might get is fair he will be gone, and he will definitely know Pearson might be the cap casualty if he does sign. 

Hinges no, but I'd say it's probably a significant factor.  Same with when TP's deal is up.  Both very well might sign competitive contracts to play together in VAN for a few years with a good team.  

 

I'll wait and see how things play out.  

[Alienhuggyflow]

On 9/10/2020 at 4:42 AM, DarkIndianRises said:

Thank you for this post mll.

 

I was admittedly very unaware of NYI’s cap situation and was too lazy to analyze their situation.    
 

As far as my proposal goes, a hypothetical Boeser trade wouldn’t even have to necessarily be for Dobson.    Just the idea of.....

 

1) The Canucks (re)signing one of Toffoli or Granlund (as to ensure that we stay strong on the right side both short term and long term).

2) The Canucks trading Boeser for a very good young defensive prospect that will be on an ELC for atleast two more seasons which would not only give the Canucks significant immediate cap relief, but would also give Quinn Hughes the Brent Seabrook to his Duncan Keith so to speak (for potentiality the next ten seasons+).    

Even something like Brock Boeser to Detroit for Moritz Seider+ would have been good in my books (that obviously wouldn’t make sense for Detroit given where they are in their rebuilding process but I’m just giving an example).    
 

Colorado probably doesn’t have a lot of cap space either, but maybe even something revolving around Conor Timmins + if it was feasible.   
 

Just putting ourselves in a situation where we

 

A) get significant immediate cap relief

B-) Don’t lose much of anything on RW both short and term and long term via Toffoli or Granlund signing.

C) Solidify our defense for the long term by filling in our biggest organizational need (young top pairing right sided defenseman that can be counted on defensively), and giving Hughes the Brent Seabrook to his Duncan Keith so to speak.

Brock is worth a lot more than Dobson and I don't get why you keep trading Brock to sign an older player who's best years are in the rearview. I like TT and hope we re-sign him but not so we can trade Boeser who at 23 is already putting up better #s and was part of one of the best lines in hockey.

I know people will disagree with me but I really don't see the fuss about Dobson. He was very underwhelming on a team that plays a very team defensive system that should have made it easier to look good in. Imagine him playing our system? He's nowhere near the top tier of D drafted in 2018 and I just can't see him being worth a top-line winger who at 23still has 35+ ppg potential. 

I just think it's terrible asset management to trade Brock because we sign a 28 year old winger who's numbers the last 3 seasons pale against Brocks.

Keep them both and we have a top 5 top 6. If Benning feels he needs to upgrade over Tanev or Stech, Maybe a package built around assets like  Gaudette, Jake, our 2021 1st Stech etc for a guy like Risto I think would make more sense.

Trading Brock for an unproven kid and then having Brock breakout would have Benning searching for a new job. 

[Alienhuggyflow]

On 9/11/2020 at 3:31 PM, IBatch said:

Well isn’t it cap relief by signing JV to a one year bridge and letting TT walk?   It is from where I’m sitting.   So you may get your dream world yet as it’s definitely a possibility.   The arithmetic shows we can sign all our guys if we do three things.   Trade Pearson.  Let Stetcher go ala Hutton, don’t sign Fanta or Leivo and that’s with Ferland starting in the LTIR.   It’s not as difficult as some are making it out to be.  That’s 5.75 x 5 JM,  5 x 5 TT,  5 x 3 Tanev.    The crux is will JM not sign without a NMC.  The one I’m suggesting is a full NTC for three years then a limited one the last two.   Still I wouldn’t do this.  Think our money is better spent on defense then TT.  
 

One trade only Pearson.   If not him then JV plus a minor one. 

They could sign all 3 with the cap available now. After that lots of ways to create more cap space without adding sweeteners. If Ferland goes on LTIR and Rousell is bought (if he can't be traded) that creates an extra 5.5 million. Burying Baer and LE if they decide not to move on, saves 3 million, moving Benn is another 2 mill and that leaves around 10 million. I would promote Joulevi\Rafferty replacing Benn and Stech sign Leivo, Motte, Gaudette, and Zac I would trade Jake and Stech since they would get 3 million each and that's just not worth it IMO. A nice bonus would be if Hogs is ready as well. There are just so many scenarios that could play out but Benning in no way needs to pull a Dubas. Even if Ferland is healthy, it's still quite doable. Plus Sutter @ 3 mill is not untradable. Allen @4.5 got a 3rd and the Pens unloaded a way worse player in Bugstad for 2 mill cap hit but 3.5 in real money and still got a pick back.

 

[IBatch]

6 hours ago, Alienhuggyflow said:

They could sign all 3 with the cap available now. After that lots of ways to create more cap space without adding sweeteners. If Ferland goes on LTIR and Rousell is bought (if he can't be traded) that creates an extra 5.5 million. Burying Baer and LE if they decide not to move on, saves 3 million, moving Benn is another 2 mill and that leaves around 10 million. I would promote Joulevi\Rafferty replacing Benn and Stech sign Leivo, Motte, Gaudette, and Zac I would trade Jake and Stech since they would get 3 million each and that's just not worth it IMO. A nice bonus would be if Hogs is ready as well. There are just so many scenarios that could play out but Benning in no way needs to pull a Dubas. Even if Ferland is healthy, it's still quite doable. Plus Sutter @ 3 mill is not untradable. Allen @4.5 got a 3rd and the Pens unloaded a way worse player in Bugstad for 2 mill cap hit but 3.5 in real money and still got a pick back.

 

Every time you bury a player someone else goes on the roster - the savings is only the difference and with the league minimum at 700 the most it can be is 300k per player.  In Bears case it was zero given Pearson replaced him.   Unless you run with a shorter roster which we haven’t done yet. 
 

    Agree we should trade Benn but only so we can sign Fanta.   Sutter at 3 for one year with 1.375 retained is still a maybe, definitely not a foregone conclusion.    Rafferty is a possibility but wouldn’t outright replace him with Stetcher - in this scenario we need to keep Benn and Fanta.   Way too dangerous to go with both OJ and Rafferty without some help and guys to push them.   Stetcher is still our cheapest option given we know what we have in him and won’t do better at 3 somewhere else - but get he’d probably have to go if we sign all three as I’ve already stated before.   

 

Roussel is a terrible buy-out option, don’t need 4 years with less then full cap so no thanks.   That’s Fanta, AG or Leivo right there for four years.   I don’t even want them to buy out Bear.   Teams going to need every cent they can get with 21 going off the books - and EP, QHs, Pearson, Edler, Sutter needing replacements or re-signing.     TT is a luxury,  and would much rather we put 5 million into our defense when the time is right.    If Podz is as good as he’s supposed to be we have our other top six winger coming (10th best prospect in the world is no slouch).   We can wait and improve our defense - and not lock up 5 million so a career middle six forward with three 40 plus seasons isn’t the guy we pick for EP or Horvat for that matter as a long term solution.

 

Yes I would agree that there are ways that JB can fit them all in.   But then every team in the league would know we are over a barrel and will be asking for Lind, Hogs and picks to unload one or two years on our guys.    I’m hoping our recent run and one more year off might create interest - in this scenario the best way to go about it would do what St Louis did and shed cap first.   Haven’t done it yet.   And the longer they don’t it speaks volumes. 

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, Alienhuggyflow said:

Brock is worth a lot more than Dobson and I don't get why you keep trading Brock to sign an older player who's best years are in the rearview. I like TT and hope we re-sign him but not so we can trade Boeser who at 23 is already putting up better #s and was part of one of the best lines in hockey.

I know people will disagree with me but I really don't see the fuss about Dobson. He was very underwhelming on a team that plays a very team defensive system that should have made it easier to look good in. Imagine him playing our system? He's nowhere near the top tier of D drafted in 2018 and I just can't see him being worth a top-line winger who at 23still has 35+ ppg potential. 

I just think it's terrible asset management to trade Brock because we sign a 28 year old winger who's numbers the last 3 seasons pale against Brocks.

Keep them both and we have a top 5 top 6. If Benning feels he needs to upgrade over Tanev or Stech, Maybe a package built around assets like  Gaudette, Jake, our 2021 1st Stech etc for a guy like Risto I think would make more sense.

Trading Brock for an unproven kid and then having Brock breakout would have Benning searching for a new job. 

 Correct.   He would be looking for a new job.   Although Dobson is the next one of that top group of Ds to have made the NHL (he’s going to be a good D almost certainly, maybe even great) and also at young age (QHs draft year) - their is risk for sure.  

[Pete M]

Didn't see this proposal before I posted a similar proposal...if there is a time to get Dobson, it is now....Boeser would have to go the other way and NYI will have to make changes to fix their cap situation. This trade would help the Canucks when they are ready to compete.

Islanders couldn't overcome scoring issues vs. Lightning in Eastern Final

Deep playoff run, center depth, addition of Sorokin give New York hope for next season

by Brian Compton @BComptonNHL / NHL.com Deputy Managing Editor

 September 18, 2020

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NHL Tonight: Next Steps for Isles

NHL Tonight looks ahead at what's next for the Islanders after getting eliminated in Game 6 of the Eastern Conference Finals

• 03:18 • September 17, 2020
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The New York Islanders were eliminated from the Stanley Cup Playoffs by the Tampa Bay Lightning, losing 2-1 in overtime in Game 6 of the Eastern Conference Final on Thursday at Rogers Place in Edmonton.

The Islanders entered the Stanley Cup Qualifiers as the No. 7 seed in the East after finishing the regular season with a .588 points percentage (35-23-10) and were No. 6 in the playoffs after they defeated the Florida Panthers in their best-of-5 series in four games. New York then won their best-of-7 first-round series against the Washington Capitals in five games and eliminated the Philadelphia Flyers in seven games in the second round. 

Here is a look at what happened during the 2020 postseason for the Islanders and why things could be even better next season:

 

The Skinny

Potential unrestricted free agents: Derick Brassard, F; Tom Kuhnhackl, F; Matt Martin, F; Andy Greene, D; Thomas Greiss, G 

Potential restricted free agents: Mathew Barzal, F; Ryan Pulock, D; Devon Toews, D 

Potential 2020 NHL Draft picks: 5 

 

What went wrong

Top line goes dry: The Islanders trailed for a total of 8.8 seconds in Games 2, 3, 5 and 6 combined, and the series could have gone differently had they received more production from forwards Jordan Eberle, Anders Lee and Barzal. Eberle scored the double-overtime winner in Game 5 but had two goals over the last 17 games. Lee did not score in the conference final after he had four goals in the second round against the Flyers. Barzal had four assists against the Lightning but did not score a goal in the last seven games of the playoffs. New York scored 12 goals in the series and was held to two or fewer in five of the six games.

 

 

 

Eberle's double overtime winner

 

• 01:04 • September 15, 2020

 

No answer for Hedman: The Islanders struggled mightily against Lightning defenseman Victor Hedman, who was a monster all series and strengthened his case to win the Conn Smythe Trophy as the most valuable player of the Stanley Cup Playoffs. Hedman had four goals and two assists in the conference final and played more than 29 minutes in each of the last three games. New York has depth on defense, but the series was evidence it lacks someone of Hedman's caliber. 

Power play: The Islanders finished the series 2-for-19 and had 34 shots on goal with the man-advantage. None of those shots came in overtime in Game 6 when Tampa Bay was penalized for having too many men on the ice.

 

Reasons for optimism

Core is returning: Thirteen players who played in Game 6 of the conference final are signed at least through next season and three others (Barzal, Pulock, Toews) are restricted free agents, so the majority of the roster is expected back. They'll be eager to build on taking another step in the playoffs after being swept by the Carolina Hurricanes in the second round last season. 

Sorokin is here: Prized goalie prospect Ilya Sorokin agreed to terms July 14 and is penciled in as Semyon Varlamov's backup next season. The 25-year-old was 26-10-3 with a 1.50 goals-against average, a .935 save percentage and nine shutouts in 40 games with CSKA Moscow of the Kontinental Hockey League this season. He was tied for second in wins, third in GAA, tied for fourth in save percentage and first in shutouts among KHL goalies to play at least 20 games. 

Center depth: The Islanders are arguably one of the deepest teams in the League at center following the addition of Jean-Gabriel Pageau, who was acquired from the Ottawa Senators on Feb. 24 and gave up a chance at unrestricted free agency to sign a six-year contract with New York the same day. Pageau, who had 11 points (eight goals, three assists) in 22 postseason games, joins Barzal, Brock Nelson and Casey Cizikas to form a formidable group down the middle.

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Edited September 19, 2020 by Pete M
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[NewbieCanuckFan]

Doubt Benn is tradable at this point (perhaps during the season when other teams get injuries on the blueline).  Not much of a market right now for depth defenseman (he got outplayed by a guy like Fanta don’t forget during the regular season) making 2 million.