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[Eklund] Virtanen to Boston?

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13 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

McAvoy is basically untouchable unless we give up Boeser ++, but Carlo might be had for Virtanen plus a pick or prospect.

 

For fun's sake, I'd do this trade any day:

Boeser + Virtanen + Juolevi + Stechers rights thrown in + 2021 1st for McAvoy + Carlo

 

Hughes - Carlo

Myers - McAvoy

 

Our top-4 set for the next 5 years at least.

 

 

I'd do something along the lines of Virtanen + Gaudette for Carlo + Kuraly

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3 hours ago, oldnews said:

This is a pointless 'comparison' regardless of who is 21yrs old and who is old enough to have watched Neely his whole career.

 

I'm just going to point out a few things to illustrate this point.

 

First - the Cam Neely the Canucks traded was a 14 goal scorer at age 20 - and a team worst -30.   Both somewhat to be "expected", particularly with a young powerforward, and one playing on not a very good team.  It was also a different NHL in the 1980s, fundamentally different.

 

For example, rookie scoring leaders in 1980/81...

40 goals - Daryl Sutter

39 - Anton Stastny

39 - Peter Stastny

37 - Jurgen Peterson

32 - Jari Kurri

 

81/82 rookie goal scoring leaders

45 goals - Dale Hawerchuk

44 - Barry Pederson

38 - Neil Broten

36 - Mike Bullard

36 - Paul McLean

35 - Marian Stastny

33 - Steve Bozek

33 - Ron Flockhart

33 - Mark Pavelich

32 - Bobby Carpenter

 

So, if you think about that for a second, Brock Boeser, the runner up in the Calder in 2017/18 with 29 goals (Barzal won - he had 22) - not one player from that rookie class would have cracked the top 10 in rookie goal scoring in 1981/82.   I mean, the 'elite' shutdown forwards of that era (f we can even use that term to refer to a player in that era, 'defensive/two-way forward is probably a 'better' term - guys like Guy Carbonneau or  Esa Tikannen - were 20 and 30 goal scorers...It pre-dated the truly 'two-way' modern game - guys like Bryan Trottier were outliers imo - Steve Yzerman transitioned from a 100-150 pt player - that never won anything, to a two way player that never scored 100 pts again - but became a contender and multiple SCC in the process.  The game changed fundamentally - as did many of it's 'stars' - two way players like Dastyuk, Yzerman became focal, principal pieces necessary to contend, something we continue to see in guys like Kopitar, Bergeron, O'Reilly (or closer to home, the kind of player we hope Horvat becomes/see Horvat becoming).

 

You don't have to have grown up watching Neely - you just have to look at the relative differences in production - or even watch some 'vintage' games and your 'eye test' should tell you that it was relative pond hockey in 'comparison' to today's NHL - there really is no comparison - and Neely 3 years in - was not tracking as a hall of famer.  Steve Yzerman scored 39 goals/77 pts as a rookie in Neely's rookie season - Neely was a 30+ pt player his first three seasons.

 

So now we have Virtanen, 3.5 seasons into his career - 3 years older as is typical/common in today's NHL - players don't as readily go from the draft to 30 goal scorer rookies in the NHL - and for the rare outlier that does, they don't have 10 peers in their 30 goal scoring rookie class - there might be 1 or 2 players and they generally enter the league in their draft + seasons (+2, +3 typically) - and Virtanen is tracking at this point where Neely was after 3 NHL seasons, albeit at a younger - as was typical, age.

 

However, if we are going to be fair to Virtanen, the 'comparison' doesn't stop at production - you look at the other factors as well (in addition to age) - factors like Virtanen having sub 50% ozone starts to this point of his career (48.3% as a young 'pwf', who has for the most part played on the 3rd line alongside shutdown forwards like Sutter).  And you factor in, that in that role, Virtanen has been -4 the past couple season, relative to -30/-26 for Neely, who I absolutely guarantee you did not see the kind of deployment Virtanen is (we may not have 'advanced stats' from Neely's era, but we have both the eye test and common sense).    Was Neely leading his team in defensive categories like takeaways - as Virtanen did in both 2017/18 and 2018/19 (and on the leaderboard again this past season)?  

 

So wadr to these 'comparisons' - if we're going to compare Virtanen to a HOFer,  we should on the other hand point out (in spite of the misperceptions around here) Virtanen is a relative Selke candidate 'compared' to the young Neely (and to be clear, not compared to his own peers, but relative to the 1980s) - and his deployment is relatively uncharacteristic of young forwards, particularly ones that we expect a lot of offensive production from.  Young offensive players are typically sheltered, if not at least given high ozone starts to attempt to create conditions for them to produce and be successful - while Green has developed Virtanen in a specifically 'modern' way - similar to the way players like Burrows, Hansen, Kesler were - and similarly, to an even greater extent, the way a young player like Motte - imo an 'elite' young defensive forward - is utilized - in even harder minutes/an almost exclusive shutdown role - whereas Virtanen has been getting the occasional 'carrot', moving up the lineup - something quite valuable when your young players are developed with versatility (something that is 'expected' of most of the Canucks young players, including their stars (the only truly 'sheltered' Canuck in the present is Gaudette).

 

So - no - Virtanen is not Cam Neely - and 2020 is not 1983 - and in fairness to Virtanen, the range of real differences should be looked at before we consider him relatively disposable or resort to unfair 'comparisons' to a player that eventually became a Hall of Famer, but produced what he did as a top 6 in the pond hockey era. 

Cam Neely scored 50 goals in 49 games playing on one leg in 1994 when goalies had real pads and the trap was in vogue.  Are you kidding me right now??

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2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Cam Neely scored 50 goals in 49 games playing on one leg in 1994 when goalies had real pads and the trap was in vogue.  Are you kidding me right now??

He was 29 at the time.

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21 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Agree to disagree. The finger bite was unnecessary. I get you're bias though which is why we love ya.

 

Personally I love Berg. Class act dude. Should be captain there.

The finger bite was just fine, shove your finger in some one's mouth, get ready to be bit.

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4 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Cam Neely scored 50 goals in 49 games playing on one leg in 1994 when goalies had real pads and the trap was in vogue.  Are you kidding me right now??

woosh.

everyone knows Cam Neely became a HOFer - thanks for the breaking news.

And again, your 'real pads and the trap was in vogue' comment reveals the fishbowl you're perceiving this through.  cool one-liner, and well done, you taught yourself nothing in the process.

 

The Jacques Lemaire Devils of 93/94 - the season you refer to - and the coach and team most notorious for/ synonymous with 'the trap' - scored 306 goals - while the Senators gave up 397, with a handful of other teams giving up more goals than 300....

 

In 1992/93, the previous season, 15 teams in the NHL scored more than 300 goals.

 

Last year, in an 82 game schedule, there was 1 team in the NHL that scored more than 300. 

 

Tampa scored 325 goals last year, to lead the league by 36 goals.  That was good for 11th in the NHL in 1993.

Calgary was 2nd in 2018/19, with 289 goals for - that would put them in the bottom half of the NHL in 1993.

Edited by oldnews
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So, will Jake be apartment hunting in Providence? ;)

 

or will these be his new linemates?  Debrusk - Krejci - Virtanen

 

Hoping, if he's traded, he goes to OTT

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20 hours ago, Dazzle said:

Good thing you're not our GM then. We also don't even have a 1st or 2nd round this year, if you were paying attention, which I know you didn't.

jeez ...i didnt know i dont follow hockey i guess

 

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46 minutes ago, oldnews said:

woosh.

everyone knows Cam Neely became a HOFer - thanks for the breaking news.

All you really  needed was the woosh sound. 

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18 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I'm usually around 203 pounds after I eat my 3 plates of pasta.  But I would say on an average day I am about 198 pounds...  :)

Light weight....lol 

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11 minutes ago, Screw said:

All you really  needed was the woosh sound. 

you're probably right. 

w.o.t.

 

the additional irony - the mid 90s - was still a clutch and grab era.  Defensive hockey in the sense it is today, was in a far more elementary stage.  

Really easy for 20 somethings (or older people that don't understand the defensive side of sport) to see by simply watching vintage games vs present games.

 

Today's NHL - is the post-2005 obstruction rules era of the NHL - what was clutch and grab - is now recognized as cheating/ is penalized = it translates into offensive advantage.

A few people here - obviously have no idea how commonplace hooks, holds, slashes, stick work in general, interference/obstruction were - for a decade following the time we're discussing here, in the early/mid 90s. 

Today's NHL, is much more low scoring in spite of the reigning in of defensive liberties - and it's not that offensive players are not as talented - it's that the defensive side of the game has in today's NHL has evolved - a lot.  

Some people nevertheless still don't get the value of a Tanev, Motte or Beagle....

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2 hours ago, gurn said:

The finger bite was just fine, shove your finger in some one's mouth, get ready to be bit.

I don't really see a face wash warranting a finger bite personally. You'll come out looking like the bad guy either way.

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13 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

I don't really see a face wash warranting a finger bite personally. You'll come out looking like the bad guy either way.

A fash wash does not involve shoving a finger in someone"s throat.

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4 minutes ago, gurn said:

A fash wash does not involve shoving a finger in someone"s throat.

I don't see how how he did or why is that warrants an excuse. Berg was face washed by Burrows as Burrows chomped down with a ref in between them. Burrows also held on to Berg's hand as he went in for the bite, then covered his face as he was biting so the camera could catch it.

 

Everyone condemned the finger bite.

 

 

 

Agree to disagree.

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1 hour ago, Nuck1991 said:

jeez ...i didnt know i dont follow hockey i guess

 

Being sarcastic isn't going to make you sound smarter. Pro tip.

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22 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Being sarcastic isn't going to make you sound smarter. Pro tip.

same goes out to you bud.

having a combined family IQ of 100 is not good enuf

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Just now, Nuck1991 said:

same goes out to you bud.

having a combined family IQ of 100 is not good enuf

I wasn't sarcastic in that post at all, "bud". Not only are you not paying attention to hockey, I can see that you've not been paying attention at school. "Enuf" about that. LOL.

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1 hour ago, oldnews said:

you're probably right. 

w.o.t.

 

the additional irony - the mid 90s - was still a clutch and grab era.  Defensive hockey in the sense it is today, was in a far more elementary stage.  

Really easy for 20 somethings (or older people that don't understand the defensive side of sport) to see by simply watching vintage games vs present games.

 

Today's NHL - is the post-2005 obstruction rules era of the NHL - what was clutch and grab - is now recognized as cheating/ is penalized = it translates into offensive advantage.

A few people here - obviously have no idea how commonplace hooks, holds, slashes, stick work in general, interference/obstruction were - for a decade following the time we're discussing here, in the early/mid 90s. 

Today's NHL, is much more low scoring in spite of the reigning in of defensive liberties - and it's not that offensive players are not as talented - it's that the defensive side of the game has in today's NHL has evolved - a lot.  

Some people nevertheless still don't get the value of a Tanev, Motte or Beagle....

True.  I think it's alot more difficult being a defenseman these days .  

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3 minutes ago, erkayloomeh said:

True.  I think it's alot more difficult being a defenseman these days .  

anyone that doubts that ought to watch some video of what Pronger and Hatcher types used to get away with...

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2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

anyone that doubts that ought to watch some video of what Pronger and Hatcher types used to get away with...

Denis Potvin (going further back) was worse.  

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Just now, erkayloomeh said:

Denis Potvin (going further back) was worse.  

and Billy Smith lol.

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