[Eklund] Virtanen to Boston?

[Gollumpus]

2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

anyone that doubts that ought to watch some video of what Pronger and Hatcher types used to get away with...

Or even Scott Stevens...

 

                              regards,  G.

[BarnBurner]

On 9/24/2020 at 5:20 PM, garthsbutcher said:

Party Jake has worn out his welcome with this organization, see ya Jake, let that sink in

We'll see. The only thing I would do at this point is offer a one year show me, do or die deal. And that's it. Show up, respect and appreciate the fact that you have an opportunity that most of us wish we had, and act like a pro. 

[gizmo2337]

Since it's Eklund, I can virtually guarantee he's not going to Boston. You heard it here first E5.

[TNucks1]

53 minutes ago, Nuck1991 said:

im more educated than you son, knew it was mistake when i slept with your MOM. 

lol just stop.

[Elias Pettersson]

7 hours ago, oldnews said:

woosh.

everyone knows Cam Neely became a HOFer - thanks for the breaking news.

And again, your 'real pads and the trap was in vogue' comment reveals the fishbowl you're perceiving this through.  cool one-liner, and well done, you taught yourself nothing in the process.

 

The Jacques Lemaire Devils of 93/94 - the season you refer to - and the coach and team most notorious for/ synonymous with 'the trap' - scored 306 goals - while the Senators gave up 397, with a handful of other teams giving up more goals than 300....

 

In 1992/93, the previous season, 15 teams in the NHL scored more than 300 goals.

 

Last year, in an 82 game schedule, there was 1 team in the NHL that scored more than 300. 

 

Tampa scored 325 goals last year, to lead the league by 36 goals.  That was good for 11th in the NHL in 1993.

Calgary was 2nd in 2018/19, with 289 goals for - that would put them in the bottom half of the NHL in 1993.

No matter how you want to spin the numbers at the end of the day Virtanen is a 3rd line winger and Neely is an all time great.  Not even sure what your point is to be honest.  Maybe we can stop with the Jake Virtanen and Cam Neely comparisons in this thread and focus on whether Jake should continue to play on our 3rd line or be traded for help on defence.

[JeremyCuddles]

46 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

No matter how you want to spin the numbers at the end of the day Virtanen is a 3rd line winger and Neely is an all time great.  Not even sure what your point is to be honest.  Maybe we can stop with the Jake Virtanen and Cam Neely comparisons in this thread and focus on whether Jake should continue to play on our 3rd line or be traded for help on defence.

Not sure what kind of caliber defenseman we can get for a 3rd liner. Also trading arguably our only legit 3rd liner scoring wise, and maybe even overall talent wise, leaves us a hole on the 3rd line (that is already pretty garbo as is) to plug a hole on defense with a guy that'll likely be comparable to Stecher or Fantenberg anyway. I wanna see Jake get traded cause I think it'll be better for his career. But looking at our roster we don't have very many quality depth options that we can just trade away Jake who is a legit 3rd liner despite all the comments to the contrary. Unless the Canucks wanna run a sheltered 3rd line with Hoglander Gaudette and Boeser or something. Maybe Rooster Gaudette and Lind. 

[Elias Pettersson]

7 hours ago, N7Nucks said:

Not sure what kind of caliber defenseman we can get for a 3rd liner. Also trading arguably our only legit 3rd liner scoring wise, and maybe even overall talent wise, leaves us a hole on the 3rd line (that is already pretty garbo as is) to plug a hole on defense with a guy that'll likely be comparable to Stecher or Fantenberg anyway. I wanna see Jake get traded cause I think it'll be better for his career. But looking at our roster we don't have very many quality depth options that we can just trade away Jake who is a legit 3rd liner despite all the comments to the contrary. Unless the Canucks wanna run a sheltered 3rd line with Hoglander Gaudette and Boeser or something. Maybe Rooster Gaudette and Lind. 

I think Kole Lind is going to be a player.  Not sure it will happen next year but I think he can be a very good 3rd line right winger who can be a pest, play a 200' game and contribute offensively.  He can also take draws and is a good set up man so he would be similar to Miller in that he can plug in at centre when need be.  I think Virtanen can get us someone better than Stecher or Fatenberg.  Like you said he is a legit 3rd line winger who can play in the top six when needed, but his time in Vancouver has run out I think. 

 

At 24 I don't think there will much more improvement from him, what you see now is what you are going to get and like you said he may be able to up his game if he left town and went to a different city.  There are teams that may want to take a gamble on Jake and see if he can turn into that top 6 power forward.  So getting a defenceman back for him that can play with Hughes is a possibility, even if we have to add to that trade.

[oldnews]

10 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

No matter how you want to spin the numbers at the end of the day Virtanen is a 3rd line winger and Neely is an all time great.  Not even sure what your point is to be honest. 

then try reading the post you responded to as opposed to defending a whiff.  you're stating the obvious, again, and wooshing in the process.   everyone knows Virtanen is a 3rd line winger.  no one is 'comparing' him to the HOFer that Neely later became - the opening line of the post you respond to is that it's a pointless comparison and if it's going to be made, it should start with what kind of player was Neely his first three seasons, relative to his peers? and then realize how completely different these contexts are.  time to stop chasing tails and wasting time.

Edited September 26, 2020 by oldnews

[Elias Pettersson]

19 minutes ago, oldnews said:

then try reading the post you responded to as opposed to defending a whiff.  you're stating the obvious, again, and wooshing in the process.   everyone knows Virtanen is a 3rd line winger.  no one is 'comparing' him to the HOFer that Neely later became - what kind of player was Neely his first three seasons, relative to his peers?   time to stop chasing tails and wasting time.

I see, so your point is Neely was just an average player his first three years as compared to his peers and then "broke out" afterwards into one of the greatest power forwards in history.  So your thinking is Jake has that potential as well?  Or at the very least the potential to be a top 6 player with 30 goal possibility?  I'm not a psychic so I can't predict the future.  All I know is what I can see today.  

 

Cam Neely broke out after his 3rd season, but he was only 21 at the time as he played for Vancouver right after he was drafted.  Jake has been playing in the NHL for 5 years now and is 24.  Neely was already at the top of his game at age 24, he was the best power forward in the game.  Jake at 24 is still a 3rd line winger with "potential".  Again, I don't see any comparisons between the two at any age to be honest.  Two totally different careers.

 

My prediction is that Jake will continue to be a good 3rd line winger who can step into a top 6 role when needed.  I don't think his future is with Vancouver though.  I think the best thing for his career is to start fresh somewhere else and the hope is that another team sees that raw potential in him which will allow us to get a much needed right handed Dman in return.

[oldnews]

13 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I see, so your point is Neely was just an average player his first three years as compared to his peers and then "broke out" afterwards into one of the greatest power forwards in history.  So your thinking is Jake has that potential as well?

Is there anything stated anywhere in any of those posts that indicate that's what I think?    Sorry - I'm not wasting any more time on this.

I think there's enough there already for you to understand the point without wasting more time sidestepping strawmen. 

 

The rest is....well....

"I'm no psychic so I can't predict the future.."

"My prediction is that..."

Edited September 26, 2020 by oldnews

[Elias Pettersson]

27 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Is there anything stated anywhere in any of those posts that indicate that's what I think?    Sorry - I'm not wasting any more time on this.

I think there's enough there already for you to understand the point without wasting more time sidestepping strawmen. 

 

The rest is....well....

"I'm no psychic so I can't predict the future.."

"My prediction is that..."

Just trying to understand your points and have an actual conversation with you.  Not sure what the strawman thing is about but I agree with you it's best not to waste anymore time on this...

[oldnews]

18 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Just trying to understand your points and have an actual conversation with you.  Not sure what the strawman thing is about but I agree with you it's best not to waste anymore time on this...

Not sure you actually are tbh -  because you're pretty much re-stating my points - in agreement in general - while ermagerding - which is why I find the LULz, Cam Neely is a HOFer - 'are you kidding me?' comments to be a woosh.

Not just simply different players - but different eras - different development approaches/fundamentally different contexts, including deployment.

you're right - it's time to move on - not much left to discuss here.  I don't necessarily buy your prediction, but who cares.

Edited September 26, 2020 by oldnews

[stawns]

11 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

No matter how you want to spin the numbers at the end of the day Virtanen is a 3rd line winger and Neely is an all time great.  Not even sure what your point is to be honest.  Maybe we can stop with the Jake Virtanen and Cam Neely comparisons in this thread and focus on whether Jake should continue to play on our 3rd line or be traded for help on defence.

we still don't really know what his ceiling is, but his numbers are a lot better rthan players who get more ice time than he does.

[Elias Pettersson]

48 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Not sure you actually are tbh -  because you're pretty much re-stating my points - in agreement in general - while ermagerding - which is why I find the LULz, Cam Neely is a HOFer - 'are you kidding me?' comments to be a woosh.

Not just simply different players - but different eras - different development approaches/fundamentally different contexts, including deployment.

you're right - it's time to move on - not much left to discuss here.  I don't necessarily buy your prediction, but who cares.

Agreed.  Now I understand the woosh.  It went over my head the first time which is why I was confused.  Cheers...

[Elias Pettersson]

50 minutes ago, stawns said:

we still don't really know what his ceiling is, but his numbers are a lot better rthan players who get more ice time than he does.

No we don't know his ceiling yet, that is true.  But at 24 there is not much time left.  That's why he could be a great trade piece as other teams are asking the same question.  Maybe Jake will have the same luck with Boston as Neely did.  Maybe they are in love with him.  Maybe they will trade Brandon Carlo for him.  Maybe...

[JeremyCuddles]

4 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I think Kole Lind is going to be a player.  Not sure it will happen next year but I think he can be a very good 3rd line right winger who can be a pest, play a 200' game and contribute offensively.  He can also take draws and is a good set up man so he would be similar to Miller in that he can plug in at centre when need be.  I think Virtanen can get us someone better than Stecher or Fatenberg.  Like you said he is a legit 3rd line winger who can play in the top six when needed, but his time in Vancouver has run out I think. 

 

At 24 I don't think there will much more improvement from him, what you see now is what you are going to get and like you said he may be able to up his game if he left town and went to a different city.  There are teams that may want to take a gamble on Jake and see if he can turn into that top 6 power forward.  So getting a defenceman back for him that can play with Hughes is a possibility, even if we have to add to that trade.

Given Benning's less than flattering comments as well as Virtanen's lack of playtime in the top 6 outside injury riddled situations I don't see him getting someone that can play with Hughes. Anyone trading for him is gonna value him as a 3rd liner. People keep bringing up his upside but if it was likely he'd reach it we wouldn't be trading him and we'd just let Toffoli walk. If Benning can manage a D prospect with top 4 upside for Virtanen he'd be a legend in my books. But fans and the team itself have done Virtanen no favors in the trade value department. Coaching staff glued his ass to the bench all season in 3rd periods. Playoff stats don't look good either. At this point I just hope he's traded to a team with a good coach. I don't much care for what the return is. Maybe that reflects poorly on me as a Canucks fan.

[oldnews]

21 hours ago, erkayloomeh said:

True.  I think it's alot more difficult being a defenseman these days .  

forgot to mention - aside from obstruction/interference crackdown that made people actually skate/move their feet, play defense as opposed to hitch a ride (hook, hold, clutch and grab) - there is also the elimination of the two line pass in 2005 - that opened up the transition game attempting to generate more offense, making defenders cover a lot more territory in the neutral zone, and enabling the stretch passes that are commonplace in the present NHL.  With the speed of the current game, it's became more necessary to have fourth lines, third pairings that can play - that are more mobile...it's not just the instigator penalty that has transitioned the league away from 'enforcers' - it's also the speed and skill of the present game - and the inability to roll three lines while having a 4 or 5 minute/game fourth line.  Fourth lines are different - they're typically more shutdown oriented, more defensively skilled, some defensive specialists - they may not be as 'heavy'/crash and bang, but they're skilled -  'harder to play against' in a different sense.

Edited September 27, 2020 by oldnews

[erkayloomeh]

1 hour ago, oldnews said:

forgot to mention - aside from obstruction/interference crackdown that made people actually skate/move their feet, play defense as opposed to hitch a ride (hook, hold, clutch and grab) - there is also the elimination of the two line pass in 2005 - that opened up the transition game attempting to generate more offense, making defenders cover a lot more territory in the neutral zone, and enabling the stretch passes that are commonplace in the present NHL.  With the speed of the current game, it's became more necessary to have fourth lines, third pairings that can play - that are more mobile...it's not just the instigator penalty that has transitioned the league away from 'enforcers' - it's also the speed and skill of the present game - and the inability to roll three lines while having a 4 or 5 minute/game fourth line.  Fourth lines are different - they're typically more shutdown oriented, more defensively skilled, some defensive specialists - they may not be as 'heavy'/crash and bang, but they're skilled -  'harder to play against' in a different sense.

You have a good mind for the game.  

Dmen that are good are way more in demand than they used to be. 

That's why I think what we have ( including in the system) isn't enough. 

I'm opposed to signing 30 yr old to big contracts too.  But petrangelo sure is tempting to go after if we can come up with the dough. 

We just aren't set enough on D if you ask me 

[oldnews]

45 minutes ago, erkayloomeh said:

You have a good mind for the game.  

Dmen that are good are way more in demand than they used to be. 

That's why I think what we have ( including in the system) isn't enough. 

I'm opposed to signing 30 yr old to big contracts too.  But petrangelo sure is tempting to go after if we can come up with the dough. 

We just aren't set enough on D if you ask me 

I'd love to see them pick up Cal Foote - if Tampa isn't dealing Cernak (which they might understandably be reluctant too), they probably have to deal Foote - won't be able to protect him - good opportunity to get a solid young RHD that could be an all situations, big minute D in the future - otherwise hard to acquire.

[WeneedLumme]

The posters who are determined to label Jake as a permanent third liner remind me  of the "realistic fans" who did the same with Miller when we acquired him. That was trolling nonsense and so is this. The facts are that Jake has been improving every year, and in the 2019-20 regular season his goal production was in the top 100 among NHL forwards, while his point production was 139th.

 

That is middle of the pack 2nd line point production, with goal production that was almost first line. It is indeed true that his deployment and icetime were mostly 3rd line level, but to be able to achieve 2nd line production from 3rd line icetime doesn't exactly scream permanent 3rd liner.

Edited September 27, 2020 by WeneedLumme