[Report] Bergevin willing to trade 1st, prospects to improve team now

[Patel Bure]

I’m not sure about Montreal’s cap space, but I’m wondering if there’s another deal to be made between Tampa and Montreal?

 

Tampa is a proven winner without Stamkos, and the Habs could use another center to take pressure off of Kotkaniemi.  Tampa needs to clear cap space as well.

[CaptKirk888]

22 minutes ago, qwijibo said:

I didn’t suggest thst.  I just said whoever wanted a 2nd from Montreal for him is dreaming. 

I know you didn’t it was @Teemu Selänne who suggested a 7th with retention, but you didn’t disagree.

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, qwijibo said:

Be that as it may.  Montreal isn’t giving a 2nd for a 4th line energy guy. Montreal has lots of bottom 6 guys.  They also have a ton of young guys ready to step in.  What they need is top 6 scoring. 

Not disputing if Montreal would want him or what he'd be worth but he's not a '4th line energy guy'. He's an elite pest, 2 way, 3rd liner with historically borderline, 2nd line production (that can fill in there with injuries etc) who was a highly sought after UFA.

[CanuckFan1123]

2 hours ago, Me_ said:

VAN

Domi

1st

 

MTL

Boeser

Virtanen

I don’t think the value is too far off, but I really just don’t see why we’d trade Brock, especially now. People who can score goals don’t just grow on trees. Our last 30 goal scorer was Radim Vrbata 6 years ago. Brock if not for injuries would have scored 30 twice already in his young career. Let the kid develop and get better. He’s a huge asset to this team. I understand injuries have been a concern but a healthy Brock is dangerous and very valuable. 

[Darius]

1 minute ago, CanuckFan1123 said:

I don’t think the value is too far off, but I really just don’t see why we’d trade Brock, especially now. People who can score goals don’t just grow on trees. Our last 30 goal scorer was Radim Vrbata 6 years ago. Brock if not for injuries would have scored 30 twice already in his young career. Let the kid develop and get better. He’s a huge asset to this team. I understand injuries have been a concern but a healthy Brock is dangerous and very valuable. 

agree.

 

What i dont get is why would they trade Brock for an older smaller player who hasnt matched his career ppg stats.  If they are going to trade brock it better be to fill one of the holes in the organization.  They shouldnt trade him to make a bigger hole.

[Ilya Mikheyev]

1 minute ago, CaptKirk888 said:

I know you didn’t it was @Teemu Selänne who suggested a 7th with retention, but you didn’t disagree.

I'm not the only one mentioning Roussel as a potential buyout candidate/salary retention:

 

Quote

 

Antoine Roussel struggled mightily in his second year as a Canuck after returning from a major ACL injury. The extra jump in his skating stride was gone, his offensive value cratered and his two-way impact wasn’t as helpful as it has been historically. The 30-year-old was marginalized in the postseason where he averaged just over seven minutes of ice time per game.

 

Suffice to say that the club needs a lot more from the Frenchman. Roussel’s deal isn’t as inefficient as some of the others, but the fact that there are no signing bonuses on his contract makes it more appealing from a buyout perspective.

 

The top Canucks buyout candidates, ranked: 2. Roussel

 

Quote

Honourable mentions: Jeff Carter, Los Angeles; Antoine Roussel, Vancouver; Mathieu Perreault, Winnipeg

James Mirtle: Ranking the NHL’s top 22 buyout candidates

 

Quote

At just 30, Roussel may still have trade value. But so far, most of the trade deals we've seen have been cap dumps. The Canucks might have to offer extra incentive to get another team to take on Roussel's not unreasonable contract, which could make the buyout route more straightforward — especially as the clock ticks toward October 9 and the big decisions that need to be made with the UFAs.

- Carol Schram

 

Quote

Both Sutter and Roussel could be attractive if the Canucks retained salary. With Sutter rehabilitating his value in the playoffs, he’s probably the one they can trade with the least difficulty. It’s not even outside the realm of possibility that they find a team to take on the majority of the cap hit. The structure of Roussel’s contract even makes a buyout feasible if they desperately need to make more room. This would save the Canucks $1.7 million for next season and just over $1.1 million for the year after.

- Harman Dayal

 

Quote

 

For the Canucks, a player like Roussel at his cap hit is no longer a luxury they can afford.

 

After an impressive first season in Vancouver, Antoine Roussel’s production slipped in 2019-20, scoring just 13 points (7-6-13) in 41 games. He brings energy and toughness to the team, but he’s also turning 31 in November.

 

There’s still enough to like about Roussel for other teams, though with two years left on his deal, Benning may have to retain some salary.

 

- The Daily Hive

 

We also have to think about what kind of market there is for him in a flat cap off-season. Not a lot of contenders have cap space for him and why would a rebuilding team give up very many assets? He's not a bad player but he's not worth much in a trade as it stands

[IBatch]

10 hours ago, DeNiro said:

To be fair Jake put up more goals than Domi with less minutes.

 

Other than Domi’s one big season their goal numbers are pretty comparable and Jake will come cheaper.

 

I could see Virtanen get 25 getting top 6 minutes. And will cost them much less.

 

I could too...which makes one to wonder is it better to sign JV to a one year deal and the play him in the top six and let TT walk... or is a second round pick or decent D prospect worth it?   Don’t think we’d get a better prospect then one we currently have but more like one in the same range.    As far as picks go ... how many second rounders do we have in our lineup right now?   25% play 200 games ..... 63% of first rounders and after that 12.5% of all rounds combined do.    

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

I could too...which makes one to wonder is it better to sign JV to a one year deal and the play him in the top six and let TT walk... or is a second round pick or decent D prospect worth it?   Don’t think we’d get a better prospect then one we currently have but more like one in the same range.    As far as picks go ... how many second rounders do we have in our lineup right now?   25% play 200 games ..... 63% of first rounders and after that 12.5% of all rounds combined do.    

At this point one has to wonder if it's less about 'asset management' and more that management don't feel Jake is a 'guy you win with'. Not 'Canuck/championship material'. 

 

 

[JM_]

11 hours ago, Teemu Selänne said:

I'm not the only one mentioning Roussel as a potential buyout candidate/salary retention:

 

The top Canucks buyout candidates, ranked: 2. Roussel

 

James Mirtle: Ranking the NHL’s top 22 buyout candidates

 

- Carol Schram

 

- Harman Dayal

 

- The Daily Hive

 

We also have to think about what kind of market there is for him in a flat cap off-season. Not a lot of contenders have cap space for him and why would a rebuilding team give up very many assets? He's not a bad player but he's not worth much in a trade as it stands

 

honestly I have to wonder what Harman is smoking these days. To suggest Roussel as a buyout is simply not something Benning would ever entertain.

 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Robert Long

[JM_]

10 minutes ago, aGENT said:

At this point one has to wonder if it's less about 'asset management' and more that management don't feel Jake is a 'guy you win with'. Not 'Canuck/championship material'. 

 

 

or Jims coles notes version of that sentiment "i expected more".

 

 

[aGENT]

31 minutes ago, Robert Long said:

 

honestly I have to wonder what Harman is smoking these days. To suggest Roussel as a buyout is simply not something Benning would ever entertain.

 

Yeah, I mean with covid/flat cap I'm not expecting any significant return but to suggest he'd need to be bought out is just so completely off plot you have to wonder how these people have media credentials  

 

Borderline 2nd line production, elite, 2 way pest on a short term, reasonable (if not a bargain) deal.

 

Yes, he struggled initially coming back from a major injury. His skating looked fine later in the season/playoffs (have people already forgotten that breakaway goal?).

 

Baffling 

[JM_]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

Yeah, I mean with covid/flat cap I'm not expecting any significant return but to suggest he'd need to be bought out is just so completely off plot you have to wonder how these people have media credentials  

 

Borderline 2nd line production, elite, 2 way pest on a short term, reasonable (if not a bargain) deal.

 

Yes, he struggled initially coming back from a major injury. His skating looked fine later in the season/playoffs (have people already forgotten that breakaway goal?).

 

Baffling 

I thought his speed was actually pretty good, particularly against Mini. 

 

I think it stems from people that hated the Roussel and Beagle signings and just can't let it go. 

[aGENT]

7 minutes ago, Robert Long said:

I thought his speed was actually pretty good, particularly against Mini. 

 

I think it stems from people that hated the Roussel and Beagle signings and just can't let it go. 

I mean look at this horrible skating...

 

 

[coryberg]

 

 

17 hours ago, Teemu Selänne said:

 

I agree with @qwijibo - Roussel is closer to being a buyout candidate than a 2nd round pick.  Maybe a 7th or future considerations if 50% is retained..

 

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, aGENT said:

At this point one has to wonder if it's less about 'asset management' and more that management don't feel Jake is a 'guy you win with'. Not 'Canuck/championship material'. 

 

 

Yes.   At 3.2 long term or 5ish for TT...TT is a blue chipper...JV is not.  At least not yet although statistically he looks ok.   Dobber has his value at 4.2 on a long term deal based on last year ... Don’t think we should do anything other then a one year deal with JV.   Short bridge - one more chance - or trade him - really just a cap dump.  
 

As far as championship material?  He does seem to have character issues but who really knows in the locker room.   Nobody does but the coaching staff and the players.    He came in guns a blazing had a fight cheered on the bench - scored a nice goal - made an awesome possible goal saving back-check ... and then pretty much was a kitten most of the rest ... disappointing based on his draft position but he’s pretty much right at the average for that position overall.   If he plays 400 games pro scouts wouldn’t consider him a bust and that’s almost a certainty at this point. 

Edited September 30, 2020 by IBatch

[aGENT]

33 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yes.   At 3.2 long term or 5ish for TT...TT is a blue chipper...JV is not.  At least not yet although statistically he looks ok.   Dobber has his value at 4.2 on a long term deal based on last year ... Don’t think we should do anything other then a one year deal with JV.   Short bridge - one more chance - or trade him - really just a cap dump.  
 

As far as championship material?  He does seem to have character issues but who really knows in the locker room.   Nobody does but the coaching staff and the players.    He came in guns a blazing had a fight cheered on the bench - scored a nice goal - made an awesome possible goal saving back-check ... and then pretty much was a kitten most of the rest ... disappointing based on his draft position but he’s pretty much right at the average for that position overall.   If he plays 400 games pro scouts wouldn’t consider him a bust and that’s almost a certainty at this point. 

Yeah, he's by no means a bust. That's just silly talk by the hyperbole crowd.

 

A young, +/- 40 point winger with a wicked shot, elite speed etc is still a legit NHL player with value. Commitment/'championship calibre' issues or otherwise.

 

And yes, at best, I'd say a one year deal around +/-$2.5m (and likely traded at some point) or simply traded in a 'hockey trade' this offseason.

 

I have some issues with how Dobber does their valuations. They're close on some but than they whiff on values both negative (Tanev) and positive (Virtanen). And if their system can't account for their intangibles or commitment/consistency issues, I have to question just how valuable, their valuations are.

 

No, we don't know what's happening in the room but we do have benchings and things like the captain calling him out in practice... We can certainly make some inferences. We can also make some assumptions IMO that a team loaded with character guys working their arses off to squeeze out every last ounce of their ability, with hard work on and off the ice, might not view a guy comparatively coasting, terribly favourably.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

Yeah, he's by no means a bust. That's just silly talk by the hyperbole crowd.

 

A young, +/- 40 point winger with a wicked shot, elite speed etc is still a legit NHL player with value. Commitment/'championship calibre' issues or otherwise.

 

And yes, at best, I'd say a one year deal around +/-$2.5m (and likely traded at some point) or simply traded in a 'hockey trade' this offseason.

 

I have some issues with how Dobber does their valuations. They're close on some but than they whiff on values both negative (Tanev) and positive (Virtanen). And if their system can't account for their intangibles or commitment/consistency issues, I have to question just how valuable, their valuations are.

 

No, we don't know what's happening in the room but we do have benchings and things like the captain calling him out in practice... We can certainly make some inferences. We can also make some assumptions IMO that a team loaded with character guys working their arses off to squeeze out every last ounce of their ability, with hard work on and off the ice, might not view a guy comparatively coasting, terribly favourably.

Dobber is 100% non-biased strictly by all the stats.  Which included games played - which is why Tanev doesn’t get a good grade (3.2 million is what they put his value at - hard to play from the infirmary and all).    What you need to understand from their viewpoint too it’s all about fantasy hockey - so every single stat out there matters to them.   JM at 6.3 and TT and 5.7.   That’s what they consider fair market value based on compareables and no Covid.  I’m not that into it either but really if you aren’t attached to a player either way it’s interesting. 

[Gollumpus]

On 9/29/2020 at 12:24 PM, Robert Long said:

sure but they don't need it on defence, they need a 1C. Who has a true 1C that you get for that package? I'm not sure. 

Buffalo?

 

                                     regards,  G.

[aGENT]

20 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Dobber is 100% non-biased strictly by all the stats.  Which included games played - which is why Tanev doesn’t get a good grade (3.2 million is what they put his value at - hard to play from the infirmary and all).    What you need to understand from their viewpoint too it’s all about fantasy hockey - so every single stat out there matters to them.   JM at 6.3 and TT and 5.7.   That’s what they consider fair market value based on compareables and no Covid.  I’m not that into it either but really if you aren’t attached to a player either way it’s interesting. 

It's certainly something you can reference for some sort of baseline, sure. But like a lot of statistics it ignores some pretty important factors. And as you point out, it's fantasy based which is heavily biased towards offensive production (which likely explains a lot of their undervaluing Tanev as well, he's a crappy 'fantasy' player).

[Gollumpus]

19 hours ago, qwijibo said:

Domi for Boeser makes some sense, even then. Montreal’s game is based on speed. Something Boeser is lacking. .  Montreal is not trading a 1st for Virtanen though. 

From my "extensive" knowledge on the subject, I'd say that Boeser > Domi by a pretty reasonable margin, and this is with Domi's physicality etc taken into consideration. They would also be getting a fairly big, relatively physical, younger forward in Virtanen, who also has shown a pretty good scoring touch, albeit he's a "third liner". The 1st could possibly get the Canucks a pretty decent d-man prospect which makes it interesting.

 

I'd say that the two packages sorta' balance out, not that I'd do this trade.

 

                                                             regards,  G.