TAMPA Salary Cap Issue

[Elias Pettersson]

10 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

As if Killorn and Palat won’t be desired by other GMs.

 

I can’t see TBL having to beg teams to take them away for a pick or something cap-friendly. Tampa is against the wall, but their options should result in less bleeding than is being prophesied everywhere I look here. 
 

What would you trade to get Killorn here for the next few years? A first? A second? Jake Virtanen? I mean, most teams will offer a decent, cheaper roster player and a pick, that’s just good investing, in my books, if you’re serious about upgrading your middle 6. 
 

There are several other players whose value is similar, but on different terms. This is where teams move term around and essentially buy other teams draft picks by taking on unfavourable contracts while the team has spending power, which the Canucks do, but could have much more if JB wanted to go there. 
 

Each GM saw the Cup final and enough of TBL to know what each of their players is worth and who they’d like on their team. I’m guessing it’s more of a bidding war than most people think, which is pretty cool. Yzerman set them up pretty good. 

So which teams right now will start bidding wars on Killorn and Palat in order to get their services for $5 million per year?  It's not like there are a boatload of teams with millions in cap space right now.  Alot of teams have already made their moves and are done.

 

Also, they both have NTC's, so Ottawa is probably out of the question as are a few other bottom feeders who have cap space.  These guys just won a Stanley Cup, they are not going to agree to move to a crappy team that is in rebuilding mode.  Also, if a GM is worth his contract and takes a look at CapFriendly then they will know that Tampa is fooked, so why hold a bidding war when you have the upper hand and know the other team is desperate to offload high end contracts?  Nobody is going to do the Stanley Cup champions any favours.  

 

They tried to get someone to bite on Tyler Johnson with no takers when he was free to get.  It will take a least a first round pick to get him off the books, probably more.  So they are stuck with him.  Palat and Killorn are the obvious choices to move out, let's see which GM plays chicken with Tampa and tries to make a deal with them.

[danaimo]

Given the current revenue uncertainty that teams find themselves in, I would be shocked if TAM are able to move any of there contracts that have more than 2 years left on them.  It has nothing to do with talent or salary cap.  It is the reality of running an entertainment business during a pandemic when there is no gate revenue and no idea when arenas will be able to reopen.  Owner are cognizant that they might have to play in a bubble for the next few years so they do not want to commit big dollars to contracts with term. 

Yes, I'm seriously suggesting that Kucherov, Stamkos, Gourd, Johnson, Killorn, Hedman, McDonagh and Vasilevsky are untradeable. Flame away.

Edited October 11, 2020 by danaimo

[gizmo2337]

What if they did the unthinkable, and move Stamkos instead? Is there any team that could absorb the cap hit? I'd have to think a team would make room. 

[Provost]

On 10/11/2020 at 11:06 AM, Elias Pettersson said:

So which teams right now will start bidding wars on Killorn and Palat in order to get their services for $5 million per year?  It's not like there are a boatload of teams with millions in cap space right now.  Alot of teams have already made their moves and are done.

 

Also, they both have NTC's, so Ottawa is probably out of the question as are a few other bottom feeders who have cap space.  These guys just won a Stanley Cup, they are not going to agree to move to a crappy team that is in rebuilding mode.  Also, if a GM is worth his contract and takes a look at CapFriendly then they will know that Tampa is fooked, so why hold a bidding war when you have the upper hand and know the other team is desperate to offload high end contracts?  Nobody is going to do the Stanley Cup champions any favours.  

 

They tried to get someone to bite on Tyler Johnson with no takers when he was free to get.  It will take a least a first round pick to get him off the books, probably more.  So they are stuck with him.  Palat and Killorn are the obvious choices to move out, let's see which GM plays chicken with Tampa and tries to make a deal with them.

I was explaining this exact thing in another thread.

 

I don’t know if any of them get picked up even if you waive them.  The teams with cap space don’t have the actual dollars to afford it.  I could see Buffalo picking up one, maybe.... but who else?  Even Buffalo maybe not since that would tie up cap for multiple years and they need to spend lots of money to re-sign D after this season.

 

No one in the East is likely interested in bailing out Tampa and letting them rebuild on the fly.  Teams would rather see them lose their RFAs or all their picks and prospect as sweeteners.

 

 

 

 

[danaimo]

On 10/11/2020 at 12:31 PM, gizmo2337 said:

What if they did the unthinkable, and move Stamkos instead? Is there any team that could absorb the cap hit? I'd have to think a team would make room. 

$8.5m for the next 4 years for a player that has  struggled with injury and has a NMC.  That's going to be a hard sell for any team. It seems incredible to think that Stamkos could be unclaimed if waived.  Palat and Killorn are the most likely to get moved because of the size and relatively short term.  The one contract that they could move easiest is Point's, but he is a future star for them, I just see them trading him away.

I gotta agree with Provost,  I can't see which teams could trade for some of the big ticket players.

[gizmo2337]

9 minutes ago, danaimo said:

$8.5m for the next 4 years for a player that has  struggled with injury and has a NMC.  That's going to be a hard sell for any team. It seems incredible to think that Stamkos could be unclaimed if waived.  Palat and Killorn are the most likely to get moved because of the size and relatively short term.  The one contract that they could move easiest is Point's, but he is a future star for them, I just see them trading him away.

I gotta agree with Provost,  I can't see which teams could trade for some of the big ticket players.

I've thought all along that the only team that would take Stamkos is Toronto. They'd have to move Nylander though, but that's an easier player to move (I think). I'm not even sure it makes sense, but I can't see him going anywhere else. Would Toronto want to do it? I'm not sure. They are a crazy bunch, so who knows.

[danaimo]

25 minutes ago, gizmo2337 said:

I've thought all along that the only team that would take Stamkos is Toronto. They'd have to move Nylander though, but that's an easier player to move (I think). I'm not even sure it makes sense, but I can't see him going anywhere else. Would Toronto want to do it? I'm not sure. They are a crazy bunch, so who knows.

What Toronto.  Acquiring highly skilled, highly paid offensive minded forwards to long term.  I can't imagine them doing that.  Oh wait a minute, that is exactly their MO.

Seriously though, TOR have enough cap headaches as they are.  There is no way they could take Stamkos as well.

[DownUndaCanuck]

I'm thinking Tampa will try a bridge contract for Sergachev especially but they'll still have to move Killorn or someone up front to free up space because Cernak deserves 2-3M and Sergachev at the least deserves 4-5M for 1-2 years. 

[24K PureCool]

I am more surprised than anything else that Tampa hasn't done, other than the futile waiver attempt, anything yet.

 

They are literally in cap hell right now and as each day go by, less chairs will be at the table.

[DeNiro]

15 hours ago, 24K PureCool said:

I am more surprised than anything else that Tampa hasn't done, other than the futile waiver attempt, anything yet.

 

They are literally in cap hell right now and as each day go by, less chairs will be at the table.

I think they tried to find some takers for Johnson with a sweetener and teams just weren’t interested.

 

They probably try to move Killorn or Gourde next but I don’t see teams clamouring for them.

 

My guess is teams are asking about Palat, Cernak, and Cirelli. Obviously players the Lightning would prefer not to move.

 

I think they either have to up the sweetener price for taking Johnson or Killorn or they’re gonna have to look at moving one of their theee more valued guys.

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by DeNiro

[peaches5]

10 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

I'm having visions of Dubas saying, "Hold my beer!"

 

 

 

 

The only way I can see them being able to move him is if he is first traded to a team like Detriot who gets a ton of prospects and draft picks and then sent to a contending team that has the cap space and wants him or possibly the contender team sending Detroit more prospects/picks to take back salary as well to clear cap space. I don't see him going to a team that isn't a contender.. but with his injury history I can't see a team giving up really anything for him.

Edited October 14, 2020 by peaches5

[ShawnAntoski]

On 10/10/2020 at 1:17 AM, Elias Pettersson said:

The salary cap is $81,500,000.  Tampa currently has $2,895,834 in cap space available with 18 players signed.  The have 3 RFA's to sign, Sergachev, Cernak and Cirelli.  

 

Teams are allowed during the offseason to be above the cap by a maximum of 10% until the season starts.  So that would add another temporary $8,150,000 to Tampa's cap space until the new season starts, presumably January 1.  So total cap space for the next two months would be $11,045,834.

 

What if all 3 of Sergachev, Cernak and Cirelli were offer sheeted where their combined salaries would be over $11,100,000?  Tampa could not match all 3.  They put Johnson on waivers but if he is not picked up his full salary still counts against the cap.

 

I'm wondering if GM's are calling each other to figure this out.  I mean Tampa just won the Cup so nobody is feeling sorry for them.  This is a very interesting situation.  I think realistically Tampa is going to lose 2 of those RFA players unless they are willing to give up picks and/or prospects to shed cap with other players under contract.

 

Stamkos, Killorn, Palat, Gourde could all be had for pennies on the dollar.  Or 3 teams could step up and offer sheet Sergachev, Cernak and Cirelli.  This will be an interesting offseason for the Stanley Cup champions.

Just like us but with less talented players eating up a chunk of our cap, we have to pay a team to get these players of our books; Tampa will be paying with assets: draft picks, cap space and prospects/players to sign these RFA's.  They draft well and even if they lose some of these players resulting in some regression next year; in a few years they will be back to competing.  Hope JB, has drafted enough NHL player and continues to identify cheap talents, to get us in a similar compete cycle.   

Edited October 17, 2020 by ShawnAntoski

[J.I.A.H.N]

So Anthony Deangelo signed a bridge contract with NYR

 

2 years @ $4,800,000 per

 

Does anyone see Sergachev signing a bridge deal for less?

 

I am thinking it will be a tad more.....1 year @ $5,000,000 -$5,250,000

 

Remember Point is up for contract renewal in 2 years, so can't have all of them expiring on the same year

 

While I am at it.................

 

Cernak....................2 years @ $2,500,000 per

 

Cirelli.......................3 years @ $3,500,000 per

 

That is around $10,000,000 in extra cap, "IF" everything went well, plus an extra $1,000,000 for the 7 Dman, so they need $11,000,0000

They have approx. $3,000,000 right now

So they need to find another $8,000,000 minimum

 

So 2 of Palat NTC ($5,300,00), Gourde NTC ($5,166,666), Killorn M-NTC ($4,450,000), and Johnson NTC ($5,000,000)

 

By the way...........Stamkos is $8,500,000 X 4 with a NMC and is often injured as said by another poster

 

And Stamkos, just is not worth the financial risk

 

 

 

 

[Provost]

32 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Just like us but with less talented players eating up a chunk of our cap, we have to pay a team to get these players of our books; Tampa will be paying with assets: draft picks, cap space and prospects/players to sign these RFA's.  They draft well and even if they lose some of these players resulting in some regression next year; in a few years they will be back to competing.  Hope JB, has drafted enough NHL player and continues to identify cheap talents, to get us in a similar compete cycle.   

Not quite like us... basically most of the guys they need to move have full no trade clauses.  Stamkos (NMC), Palat, Gourde, and Johnson.  Killorn only has a 16 team no trade list.  That means they can't even dump those guys, as there is zero reason for any of them to waive to leave a contender to a bottom feeder team.  They will also lose millions in taxes by going somewhere else.

The other problematic part of their situation is the term and real dollars owed on all those guys.  2-5 years depending on the player, and at big actual cash owed.

So they will have fewer takers because teams with cap space don't have actual cash to spend, and teams with cash don't have any cap space.

In our case, a player like Eriksson is owed only a small amount of cash ($5 million total over 2 years.. minus up to 30% in escrow and deferred payments... so more like $3.5 million).  It is entirely conceivable that we could insert ourselves into a Tampa trade with a 3rd team.  If one of their guys is willing to waive to come to us (and say not Detroit or Ottawa), then we get that player and the 3rd team gets LE and the sweetener.
We benefit by getting the better player, Tampa benefits by saving the cap space, and the 3rd team benefits by getting the sweetener for taking on a fairly modest amount of actual cash.

Eg,
To Vancouver
Palat

To Ottawa
Eriksson
2nd round Tampa pick

To Tampa
Late Vancouver pick or lower prospect

...or we take on a bigger hit in terms of cap hit and term:

To Vancouver
Johnson
Cernak

To Detroit
Eriksson
Virtanen
Tampa's 2021 2nd
Vancouver's 2022 2nd

To Tampa
Gaudette
Rafferty

[ShawnAntoski]

50 minutes ago, Provost said:

Not quite like us... basically most of the guys they need to move have full no trade clauses.  Stamkos (NMC), Palat, Gourde, and Johnson.  Killorn only has a 16 team no trade list.  That means they can't even dump those guys, as there is zero reason for any of them to waive to leave a contender to a bottom feeder team.  They will also lose millions in taxes by going somewhere else.

The other problematic part of their situation is the term and real dollars owed on all those guys.  2-5 years depending on the player, and at big actual cash owed.

So they will have fewer takers because teams with cap space don't have actual cash to spend, and teams with cash don't have any cap space.

In our case, a player like Eriksson is owed only a small amount of cash ($5 million total over 2 years.. minus up to 30% in escrow and deferred payments... so more like $3.5 million).  It is entirely conceivable that we could insert ourselves into a Tampa trade with a 3rd team.  If one of their guys is willing to waive to come to us (and say not Detroit or Ottawa), then we get that player and the 3rd team gets LE and the sweetener.
We benefit by getting the better player, Tampa benefits by saving the cap space, and the 3rd team benefits by getting the sweetener for taking on a fairly modest amount of actual cash.

Eg,
To Vancouver
Palat

To Ottawa
Eriksson
2nd round Tampa pick

To Tampa
Late Vancouver pick or lower prospect

...or we take on a bigger hit in terms of cap hit and term:

To Vancouver
Johnson
Cernak

To Detroit
Eriksson
Virtanen
Tampa's 2021 2nd
Vancouver's 2022 2nd

To Tampa
Gaudette
Rafferty

Good points but I didn't really look at the details.  My main point, is that with the cap, teams in a cap crunch cannot really get of players with out given up assets/cap space or both to gain cap relief. 

Edited October 18, 2020 by ShawnAntoski

[KirkSave]

On 10/11/2020 at 12:31 PM, gizmo2337 said:

What if they did the unthinkable, and move Stamkos instead? Is there any team that could absorb the cap hit? I'd have to think a team would make room

Buffalo!

 

They could have legit superstars in Hall, Eichel and Stammer and if Hall decided to bounce after this coming season, at least they could have stammer locked up to play alongside Eichel for 4-5 years in order to keep Eichel happy and show hm they are serious in wanting to build a contender. Plus, given the current climate in the NHL market, Buffalo could probably get Stammer for far less than what he would cost normally.

 

The question is would TB move their captain, even though they didn't need him on the ice to win the cup...

[danaimo]

13 hours ago, KirkSave said:

Buffalo!

 

They could have legit superstars in Hall, Eichel and Stammer and if Hall decided to bounce after this coming season, at least they could have stammer locked up to play alongside Eichel for 4-5 years in order to keep Eichel happy and show hm they are serious in wanting to build a contender. Plus, given the current climate in the NHL market, Buffalo could probably get Stammer for far less than what he would cost normally.

 

The question is would TB move their captain, even though they didn't need him on the ice to win the cup...

Buffalo do not have the cap space.

$13.6 m currently on a roster of 19 players.  They need to resign 4 RFAs to get up to 23 players. Reinhart, Olofsson, Pilut and Ullmark.  After re signing these guys they might have $2m left., if they are lucky.   Buffalo already have anchor contracts, they are not going to want other team's.  The only 2 teams that could take on Stamkos contract is DET or OTT.  But why would they? it would hamstring the acquiring team. Stamkos is untradeable.

[KirkSave]

1 hour ago, danaimo said:

Stamkos is untradeable.

Bah! OK...

 

Elite Forward- check

Reasonable cap hit- check

Veteran Leadership and winning pedigree- check

 

If TB was looking to move him, I would venture many teams would show interest and inquire as to the cost and what they could do to make it work. And if Buffalo were such a team, they could figure something out. They could probably move out one of their D-men like Risto or Miller.

2 hours ago, danaimo said:

Buffalo already have anchor contracts, they are not going to want other team's.

Stamkos's contract is not an anchor contract. But I do agree that Buffalo has a few in Okposo and Skinner.

[danaimo]

52 minutes ago, KirkSave said:

Bah! OK...

 

Elite Forward- check

Reasonable cap hit- check

Veteran Leadership and winning pedigree- check

 

If TB was looking to move him, I would venture many teams would show interest and inquire as to the cost and what they could do to make it work. And if Buffalo were such a team, they could figure something out. They could probably move out one of their D-men like Risto or Miller.

Stamkos's contract is not an anchor contract. But I do agree that Buffalo has a few in Okposo and Skinner.

I've explained why BUF could not trade for Stamkos. They do not have the cap space and they still have roster spots to fill with their own RFAs.  

Stamkos is untradeable. Not because he is a bad player.  Simply because his contract is $8.5m for another 4 years.  With a flat salary cap and so many teams needing to shed salary there is simply not enough liquidity in the system. Too many sellers, not enough buyers.  Add that to his injury problems and his NMC and you get an untradeable contract.  The only teams that can take on salary dumps are OTT or DET, and there are younger, healthier and less expensive options than Stamkos. 

[KirkSave]

2 hours ago, danaimo said:

I've explained why BUF could not trade for Stamkos. They do not have the cap space and they still have roster spots to fill with their own RFAs.  

Stamkos is untradeable. Not because he is a bad player.  Simply because his contract is $8.5m for another 4 years.  With a flat salary cap and so many teams needing to shed salary there is simply not enough liquidity in the system. Too many sellers, not enough buyers.  Add that to his injury problems and his NMC and you get an untradeable contract.  The only teams that can take on salary dumps are OTT or DET, and there are younger, healthier and less expensive options than Stamkos. 

Stamkos is not untradeable. Yes, it is highly unlikely he gets moved due to his NMC but if a team wanted him bad enough, it is not impossible as your arguments seem to claim.