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4 minutes ago, Marv-the-wet-bandit said:

just not for a year or 2 but for the long haul.

I also wonder though - does hoarding draft picks really help an organization? Look at EDM, BUF and OTT.  

 

Reinhart is only 25, by no means old. What the Canucks would get is a Top 6 forward who led his team tin goals and points. Guaranteed production, as opposed to a maybe down the road a prospect will work out.

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2 hours ago, HighOnHockey said:

 

Woah, how are you trying to include Schenn and Gaborik here? I had a good post about this not too long ago, but before I get to the explanation, lets just jump to some examples. You named 7 teams that won Cups, so lets look at 7 teams that didn't (yet?):

 

Arizona had top five picks in 2004 (5th) and 2007 (3rd), plus an 8th, an 8th and a 6th between 2006 and 2009.

 

New York Islanders had five(!) top five picks from 2009 to 2014 (1st, 5th, 5th, 4th, 5th).

 

New Jersey Devils had two first overall picks, in 2017 and 2019, and another coming up in 2021. We'll see where that goes, but let me know when you're planning to bet on them to win the Cup.

 

Florida Panthers had four top five picks from 2010 to 2014 (3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 1st).

 

Edmonton Oilers had six top five picks from 2010 to 2016, including four firsts (!), a third and a fourth. Maybe they will win a Cup yet, but you have to admit that kinda seems like overkill. Or based on your argument, you might even say it is greedy.

 

Buffalo Sabres had three top five picks between 2014 and 2018, including two firsts and a 3rd. Plus five more top ten picks between 2013 and 2020. Fingers crossed for them.

 

Toronto Maple Leafs also had three top five picks from 2012 to 2016 (fifth, fourth, first), plus 8th in 2014. Fingers crossed for them too. I hope every fan base that has to suffer through this gets rewarded, but the truth of the matter is only so many of them can.

 

Lets not even get into the Columbus Blue Jackets from 2000 to 2012.

 

I'm not saying high picks and lottery luck didn't help Chicago or Pittsburgh. Of course they would never have been what they were without Malkin, Crosby, Toews, Kane. But the point is you're looking it it from the wrong perspective. Those teams got very lucky that they won the lottery (which is even harder to get in the top two now) and also very lucky that players like those were available the years they sucked. Plus they still had to build strong teams around them. Every team goes through these cycles of ups and downs. It is literally the stated intention of the reverse-standings draft-order system. But sucking on purpose is what leads to those Islanders or Oilers teams.

 

Then you look at teams like Boston for their Cup in 2011 or Dallas for their Finals appearance in 2020, Nashville's Finals appearance in 2017  or even Winnipeg's run to the conference finals in 2018. All had just gone through a very brief retooling and had at least one top five pick, and then suddenly emerged as contending teams a couple years later, but although they may have added one key piece from the draft, those teams were overwhelmingly led by keen trade and free agent acquisitions, as well as the internal development of shrewd draft picks stockpiled from well before their tank years. Even Chicago, Kane and Toews were the centerpieces, but Skille and Barker had little to do with it. And major credit goes to Keith, Byfuglien and Seabrook, who were drafted well before the tank, and then masterful trade and free agent acquisitions like Patrick Sharp and Marian Hossa.

 

Every few years I like to make a list of the top ten GMs in the league. And generally the first criteria is Cup rings, but even without any Cups, give me Doug Wilson and David Poile every day of the week for the way they were able to keep San Jose and Nashville competitive for a decade and a half with very few major bumps in the road. Jim Nill is also doing great things in Dallas, not going through the traditional tear-it-down mentality, trading for Spezza and Seguin early on, and eventually making the Finals (yes, led by Heiskanen). All three made it to the Finals and lost to powerhouse teams led by Malkin, Crosby, Stamkos, Hedman, but hey, what are you gonna do?

Thank you HoH, we'll said!

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In my expert opinion

 

 

Yeah, no clue what will happen until it happens. No idea who other teams will pick, no clue who will be left and zero clue as to what trades, signings, buyouts will happen which may or may not force the GM to use the pick or trade it.

 

What I am sure of is whomever we pick will be criticized by some, praised by others. Also if the pick is traded there will be a lot of debate if it is the right move and even more so if the pick becomes a star.

 

Not super worried as I don't think this team, as constructed has a hope of winning the cup.

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13 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

I also wonder though - does hoarding draft picks really help an organization? Look at EDM, BUF and OTT.  

 

Reinhart is only 25, by no means old. What the Canucks would get is a Top 6 forward who led his team tin goals and points. Guaranteed production, as opposed to a maybe down the road a prospect will work out.

No it really doesn’t.

 

As much as people roast Benning for trading away picks he knows better than anyone that sometimes a draft pick has more value as a trade piece. 
 

It’s why this year like every year he’ll evaluate the player available at 9 and compare it to the value of a potential trade target. 


Toronto and Edmonton did a good job collecting good young prospects problem is they always hold onto them too long. If they were to trade them earlier while the hype was still fresh they could have filled big holes in their roster. However you hold onto them too long and suddenly the hype doesn’t meet reality.

 

Thats why it’s a careful balancing act between using picks, trading picks, and trading prospects before their value diminishes.

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21 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

I also wonder though - does hoarding draft picks really help an organization? Look at EDM, BUF and OTT.  

 

Reinhart is only 25, by no means old. What the Canucks would get is a Top 6 forward who led his team tin goals and points. Guaranteed production, as opposed to a maybe down the road a prospect will work out.

I’m not saying he’s old. And I think he’s a good player. My issue is we need guys to come in on their entry level deals to help our team. Adding another contract like Reinhart means we won’t have any depth. The cap looks to be stagnant for the next couple years. I agree he’s a good player but this is a cap league. That’s my issue with a Reinhart trade, not the player but where it puts us

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4 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

No it really doesn’t.

 

As much as people roast Benning for trading away picks he knows better than anyone that sometimes a draft pick has more value as a trade piece. 
 

It’s why this year like every year he’ll evaluate the player available at 9 and compare it to the value of a potential trade target. 


Toronto and Edmonton did a good job collecting good young prospects problem is they always hold onto them too long. If they were to trade them earlier while the hype was still fresh they could have filled big holes in their roster. However you hold onto them too long and suddenly the hype doesn’t meet reality.

 

Thats why it’s a careful balancing act between using picks, trading picks, and trading prospects before their value diminishes.

I agree with most of this. But if we trade for Reinhart after adding Miller then we lose out on 2 ELCs that should help the team and add over 10 million to our cap. I love Miller and am

happy with the trade but I worry about our cap outlook when the cap is going to be stagnant for the next couple years. We are re signing Hughes and Petey this year but Bo and JT and Podz and Hogz and Rathbone all need to be re signed and other then Pod the rest need to be done in the following 2 off seasons. Then maybe Gadjovich or Lind or OJ take a step forward in the nhl and they get paid more then what we’d think right now. We need to be cap conscious. I’ll take a player at 9 even if he needs a year or 2 of development with the chance he’ll come in even in a few years and help us at a million dollars over risking what Reinhart does for us

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1 hour ago, vinny_in_vancouver said:

Gotta love the crazy comparables during draft time! Button just released his second mock draft (https://www.tsn.ca/jets-bolster-blueline-oilers-add-skill-up-front-in-button-s-second-mock-draft-1.1656063), and he has the following - I stopped at 20:

  1. Buffalo selects Hedman
  2. Seattle selects Horvat
  3. Anaheim selects TJ Oshie
  4. New Jersey selects Klingberg
  5. Columbus selects Seth Jones
  6. Detroit selects Ryan Miller
  7. San Jose selects Aho
  8. LA selects Morgan Reilly
  9. Vancouver selects Petey
  10. Ottawa selects Ryan O'Reilly
  11. Chicago selects DeBrincat
  12. Calgary selects Couture
  13. Philly selects Marchand(!)
  14. Dallas selects Landeskog
  15. Rangers select Brock Nelson
  16. St. Louis selects McDonagh
  17. Jets select Seabrook
  18. Oilers select Rantanen
  19. Bruins select Datsyuk
  20. Coyotes select JT Miller

Holy man Craig is not high on Lysell at all. I don't want him at 9, but I still think he's a top 12 or so talent. Craig has him at the end of the first round.

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1 hour ago, NUCKER67 said:

I'm circling back again to the possibility of Benning trading the #9.

 

The latest rumour has Reinhart coming to VAN, at his request and also BUF saying they plan to get another Top 10 pick at the draft. BUf basically needs a re-do, building around Dahlin, Mittelstadt and Cozens, etc. They'll try to trade Reinhart, Eichel and possibly Ristolainen, for lots of picks. If they get proper management and coaching, they could be a force one day. But that's a ways off. 

 

The #9 pick won't help Bennong, who is tryin to save his job and turn the Canucks into a playoff team. This is why I believe he'll trade the #9 for immediate help in the Top 6.

 

2021/22

 

Miller - Pettersson - Boeser

Pearson - Horvat - Reinhart

Hoglander - UFA - Podkolzin

 

It would sure look better on paper anyway

Maybe, but he showed with Podz, that he was willing to wait... However, if he feels there's only a 50/50 chance his pick makes it in a couple of years, yes I can easily see him trade the pick as well...

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Just now, spook007 said:

Maybe, but he showed with Podz, that he was willing to wait... However, if he feels there's only a 50/50 chance his pick makes it in a couple of years, yes I can easily see him trade the pick as well...

I know I get real excited once I start to get to know of the Top Prospects at the Draft, thinking the Canucks will get a good one. And that might still happen, and in a way I hope it does.

 

My preference would be for Benning to fix his mess without sacrificing the future. We'll see what he does. 

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58 minutes ago, Marv-the-wet-bandit said:

I agree with most of this. But if we trade for Reinhart after adding Miller then we lose out on 2 ELCs that should help the team and add over 10 million to our cap. I love Miller and am

happy with the trade but I worry about our cap outlook when the cap is going to be stagnant for the next couple years. We are re signing Hughes and Petey this year but Bo and JT and Podz and Hogz and Rathbone all need to be re signed and other then Pod the rest need to be done in the following 2 off seasons. Then maybe Gadjovich or Lind or OJ take a step forward in the nhl and they get paid more then what we’d think right now. We need to be cap conscious. I’ll take a player at 9 even if he needs a year or 2 of development with the chance he’ll come in even in a few years and help us at a million dollars over risking what Reinhart does for us

Yea but the player at 9 will likely need 2-3 years development and there are still no guarantees.

 

If Benning trades for Reinhart our top 6 is essentially set for the next 5 or 6 years. It also makes us more competitive while our young stars are in their prime.
 

No guarantees that player would be a top 6 player until they’re 24-25. That would mean a guy like Horvat is past his prime.

 

Unless there’s a D man there that we can’t pass on I’m open to trading the pick. Benning has shown he can find very good roster players in the 2nd round (Hoglander/Demko).
 

We would still be in line with what most competitive teams spend on their top 6.

 

 

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I think Button's latest mock is pretty dam good. He usually throws in a few curve balls to get people talking, like have L'Heureux top 10 - seriously hope he doesn't go to CGY tho, playing him and Tkchuck all the time would be hair pulling ... Lysell looks like the whipping boy this year - but i do think there is a good chance he could plummet to 20+ 

Pronmans on the other hand i thought was terrible. 

 

I'd do the Reinhart trade for #9 - I wouldn't add tho, unless its 'dead' salary outgoing.  I do really like the prospects that are available in our range but due to the pandemic and other factors they are likely 2 years out and then playing 8 mins a night for a year from there. Sam would be a great fit all over our top 6 and makes us a lot better straight away.  

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2 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Yea but the player at 9 will likely need 2-3 years development and there are still no guarantees.

 

If Benning trades for Reinhart our top 6 is essentially set for the next 5 or 6 years. It also makes us more competitive while our young stars are in their prime.
 

No guarantees that player would be a top 6 player until they’re 24-25. That would mean a guy like Horvat is past his prime.

 

Unless there’s a D man there that we can’t pass on I’m open to trading the pick. Benning has shown he can find very good roster players in the 2nd round (Hoglander/Demko).
 

We would still be in line with what most competitive teams spend on their top 6.

 

 

If we are moving 9OA might it be better to target a top four D man, or the winger like Rhino?

What about Seth Jones?  He would cost more though

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1 hour ago, shayster007 said:

Holy man Craig is not high on Lysell at all. I don't want him at 9, but I still think he's a top 12 or so talent. Craig has him at the end of the first round.

Button had Virtanin in the second round. In fact he was the one and only source who had Virt so low. 

Seems about right now though.

 

Maybe he 7s on to something with Lysell....

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14 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Yea but the player at 9 will likely need 2-3 years development and there are still no guarantees.

 

If Benning trades for Reinhart our top 6 is essentially set for the next 5 or 6 years. It also makes us more competitive while our young stars are in their prime.
 

No guarantees that player would be a top 6 player until they’re 24-25. That would mean a guy like Horvat is past his prime.

 

Unless there’s a D man there that we can’t pass on I’m open to trading the pick. Benning has shown he can find very good roster players in the 2nd round (Hoglander/Demko).
 

We would still be in line with what most competitive teams spend on their top 6.

 

 

Sure but we have no depth at that point and are strapped to do much. Our top 6 would look great but it looks more then fine now and I’d rather our bottom 6 upgrade, our defence upgrade. I just think there’s more pressing needs. Although I like Reinhart. We would just do things differently.

 

 

Also, everyone on this forum (myself included) rave about the way JB drafts. I think most people on this forum are well aware that his trades and signings are his weakness. He should make as many picks as he can and our homegrown team will contend. He keeps trying to expedite the rebuild which in the end means he’s taking shortcuts and that way doesn’t work. I want this team to win a cup and I think making your picks is the way to do it. Trading 2 firsts in 3 years in the cap era (while your team isn’t a contender) is a huge mistake IMO 

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Just now, Alflives said:

If we are moving 9OA might it be better to target a top four D man, or the winger like Rhino?

What about Seth Jones?  He would cost more though

 

I mean we need both so we either get one with a trade and the other through free agency, it doesn’t really matter.

 

Any impact player we can get that doesn’t cost us additional pieces like Hoglander or Rathbone I’m good with.

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11 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I think Button's latest mock is pretty dam good. He usually throws in a few curve balls to get people talking, like have L'Heureux top 10 - seriously hope he doesn't go to CGY tho, playing him and Tkchuck all the time would be hair pulling ... Lysell looks like the whipping boy this year - but i do think there is a good chance he could plummet to 20+ 

Pronmans on the other hand i thought was terrible. 

 

I'd do the Reinhart trade for #9 - I wouldn't add tho, unless its 'dead' salary outgoing.  I do really like the prospects that are available in our range but due to the pandemic and other factors they are likely 2 years out and then playing 8 mins a night for a year from there. Sam would be a great fit all over our top 6 and makes us a lot better straight away.  

Pronman is terrible. Nothing but hot takes like usual from him. I gave up on his draft rankings years ago it seems like he just does it for attention. I mean, I understand a lot of this is based on the person doing the rankings personal opinion, but to have Cossa one spot ahead of Wallstedt is debatable and two spots ahead of Edvinsson seems insane to me.

 

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1 minute ago, DeNiro said:

 

I mean we need both so we either get one with a trade and the other through free agency, it doesn’t really matter.

 

Any impact player we can get that doesn’t cost us additional pieces like Hoglander or Rathbone I’m good with.

What if we could get Seth Jones for 9OA + Rathbone?  (Jones extended, of course)

I don't see how we can trade for Rhino, and afford a quality D man from the UFA ranks.  Aren't wingers cheaper?

 

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7 minutes ago, Marv-the-wet-bandit said:

Sure but we have no depth at that point and are strapped to do much. Our top 6 would look great but it looks more then fine now and I’d rather our bottom 6 upgrade, our defence upgrade. I just think there’s more pressing needs. Although I like Reinhart. We would just do things differently.

 

 

Also, everyone on this forum (myself included) rave about the way JB drafts. I think most people on this forum are well aware that his trades and signings are his weakness. He should make as many picks as he can and our homegrown team will contend. He keeps trying to expedite the rebuild which in the end means he’s taking shortcuts and that way doesn’t work. I want this team to win a cup and I think making your picks is the way to do it. Trading 2 firsts in 3 years in the cap era (while your team isn’t a contender) is a huge mistake IMO 

Well Benning should be able to draft players to fill the bottom 6. Those players are also much easier to acquire in free agency. I think he’s already got a good jump start on that with guys like Highmore/Lockwood/MacEwan/Lind etc.

 

As for defense that will have to be filled over time through drafting a developing. Maybe next offseason when more cap opens up we go out and sign one there.

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Just now, DeNiro said:

Well Benning should be able to draft players to fill the bottom 6. Those players are also much easier to acquire in free agency. I think he’s already got a good jump start on that with guys like Highmore/Lockwood/MacEwan/Lind etc.

 

As for defense that will have to be filled over time through drafting a developing. Maybe next offseason when more cap opens up we go out and sign one there.

Cap looks flat for the next couple years. Look at his signings for depth forwards, they not only get overpaid they also get some form of a NMC. I’d rather us make sure we can get our own guys locked up that are coming off the books the next 2 off-seasons. If I thought Reinhart pushed us over the edge I’d do it. He makes us better but I don’t think he puts us where we need to be. He makes every team

better but to what degree. We just disagree on this subject, and that’s fine

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