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I dont think Virtanen has the IQ to become a top 6 forward.

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2 hours ago, PositionOfPower said:

Agree 100%  he lacks hockey iq and 'wants' to play a finesse game in a big body. Problem with this is, if he had hands like Benn or Rick Nash he can but just doesn't have it. He is at best a 3rd liner.

 

All he does or is deeply programmed to do is:

a) skate through the wings shoot a low percentage low shot from the side which never goes in.

 

b) skate through the sides to the back of net around other side and pass it off.

 

To really change him is to coach/change that deeply engrained bad programming, very simple type of player. Only thing keeping him in is his skating and sometimes good shot and sometimes hitting. Never seen him just drive through the net and crash and bang then tussle with some defenders after the whistle. 

 

I would have traded him a long time ago to be honest. Simply put he plays like a bigger Mason Raymond with better shot, very similar areas where the attack.

To be honest, you seem to be describing Jake Virtanen in his first and second years in the league.

 

You don't seem to see his developments since then but that's what the other poster said, most people who hate on Jake, hate on him from the start and keep on using that thinking and don't accept what he has done because it will go against their "theories".

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3 hours ago, PositionOfPower said:

Agree 100%  he lacks hockey iq and 'wants' to play a finesse game in a big body. Problem with this is, if he had hands like Benn or Rick Nash he can but just doesn't have it. He is at best a 3rd liner.

 

All he does or is deeply programmed to do is:

a) skate through the wings shoot a low percentage low shot from the side which never goes in.

 

b) skate through the sides to the back of net around other side and pass it off.

 

To really change him is to coach/change that deeply engrained bad programming, very simple type of player. Only thing keeping him in is his skating and sometimes good shot and sometimes hitting. Never seen him just drive through the net and crash and bang then tussle with some defenders after the whistle. 

 

I would have traded him a long time ago to be honest. Simply put he plays like a bigger Mason Raymond with better shot, very similar areas where the attack.

Have to say, that if you could get a bigger Mason Raymond with a better shot for arounf 2.5m, I don’t know, what folks are so unhappy about. 
For the amound of $ he’s paid, I still believe, he’s worth it. 
I do agree its been frustrating to see the same issue arise 2 camps on the spin, where he turned up out of shape, and it gave reason to wonder if his heart was truly in it, but its not enough to suggest he doesn’t have hockey IQ. 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the same said about Hansen, in the beginning of his career? 

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1 hour ago, Law of Goalies said:

To be honest, you seem to be describing Jake Virtanen in his first and second years in the league.

 

You don't seem to see his developments since then but that's what the other poster said, most people who hate on Jake, hate on him from the start and keep on using that thinking and don't accept what he has done because it will go against their "theories".

Yes his goals total increased but general pattern of play is the same. Seems you were missing out when he played in the bubble where it all matters.

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59 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Have to say, that if you could get a bigger Mason Raymond with a better shot for arounf 2.5m, I don’t know, what folks are so unhappy about. 
For the amound of $ he’s paid, I still believe, he’s worth it. 
I do agree its been frustrating to see the same issue arise 2 camps on the spin, where he turned up out of shape, and it gave reason to wonder if his heart was truly in it, but its not enough to suggest he doesn’t have hockey IQ. 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the same said about Hansen, in the beginning of his career? 

That aint the point the discussion is about he aint a legit top 6, I meant the way he plays attacks through parameter is mayray with weak parameter low percentage shots from the side that doesn't actually make him mayray. And whats up with the Hansen comparison, Hansen at least had work ethic some intensity from the beginning and Hansen never had a good shot. All said and done please refer to JB after playoffs about Virt.

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1 hour ago, PositionOfPower said:

That aint the point the discussion is about he aint a legit top 6, I meant the way he plays attacks through parameter is mayray with weak parameter low percentage shots from the side that doesn't actually make him mayray. And whats up with the Hansen comparison, Hansen at least had work ethic some intensity from the beginning and Hansen never had a good shot. All said and done please refer to JB after playoffs about Virt.

You said he was playing like a bigger version of MayRay with a better shot. MayRay was good enough to play lw in the SC finals... i’d take that any day, was what I said. 

With regards to his IQ for top six, think confidence would do the world of good... 

over a period of time. 

If JB really thought JV was a bum, why wouldn’t he just trade him? They all know there’s more to come from him. 
Was his play off spectacular? No, but it wasn’t a disaster neither, just not what people hoped to see...

I think the only real issue is to get to engage each game. 

Nothing wrong with Hansens shot, but yeah probably a poor comparison to JV. 

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Remember how many guys and gals were saying “wait for the playoffs, JVs game is built for the playoffs”.   He did disappear completely almost after the first couple of games plus game 5 in St Louis...he’s inconsistent.    JB himself commented on a disappointing performance from him.   At this point I highly doubt the player is going to change. It’s frustrating for sure but he’s definitely not the only one.  Pearson,  and TT also had disappearering acts for long stretches- and not just talking about getting on the scoresheet for any of these guys either.     If they all played like Motte we’d be NHL champs.    Which is what bothers me the most - there is always someone coming up behind who’d loved nothing more then steal one of these spots - even on the fourth line.

 

Remember Courtnall?  He was Mr. Streak.   Long stretches then a bunch of goals...but he did have the “it” factor when the chips were down.   JV is definitely one of our guys who can keep up to the speed of teams like Vegas...and he can hit but seems to only really go for it when he’s getting hit first (reverse hit or gets mad and then hits back).   They count love taps as hits these days too.  It’s the fact he CAN obliterate guys but rarely does which is frustrating.

 

At the end I’m pretty sure he’s headed for a decent middle six career.   Nothing special - nothing terrible either and there’s nothing wrong with that.   If he was a second or third rounder this  wouldn’t even be a thread. 

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10 hours ago, Law of Goalies said:

LOLZ..bro..that is just stupid. "the bolded part"

he just strikes me as a really typical, empty headed, late-teens/early-twenties social media millenial. vapid. not a lot going on upstairs. he's a bimbo. 

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1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Remember how many guys and gals were saying “wait for the playoffs, JVs game is built for the playoffs”.   He did disappear completely almost after the first couple of games plus game 5 in St Louis...he’s inconsistent.    JB himself commented on a disappointing performance from him.   At this point I highly doubt the player is going to change. It’s frustrating for sure but he’s definitely not the only one.  Pearson,  and TT also had disappearering acts for long stretches- and not just talking about getting on the scoresheet for any of these guys either.     If they all played like Motte we’d be NHL champs.    Which is what bothers me the most - there is always someone coming up behind who’d loved nothing more then steal one of these spots - even on the fourth line.

 

Remember Courtnall?  He was Mr. Streak.   Long stretches then a bunch of goals...but he did have the “it” factor when the chips were down.   JV is definitely one of our guys who can keep up to the speed of teams like Vegas...and he can hit but seems to only really go for it when he’s getting hit first (reverse hit or gets mad and then hits back).   They count love taps as hits these days too.  It’s the fact he CAN obliterate guys but rarely does which is frustrating.

 

At the end I’m pretty sure he’s headed for a decent middle six career.   Nothing special - nothing terrible either and there’s nothing wrong with that.   If he was a second or third rounder this  wouldn’t even be a thread. 

This is, where I see him as well. 

His draft position is without shadow of a doubt the catalyst for all these threads. 

I wonder if it has something to do with Virtanen not really wanting ti drop the gloves? Or could it be his shoulder never really recovered? Every time a hit is being laid, there is a fight afterwards, and I don't think that's Virtanen forte... We all expected more from JV, but again its was probably because we all saw the play offs as being the time, he would blossom but never fully did... 

I thought he played ok, except for a few real disappearing acts, but than again so did a lot of players  Pearson, TT, Roussel, Brock, Gaudette, Sutter all at various stages...

The one thing that would really disappoint me, would be JV showing up at next camp totally out of shape... other than that, I expect him to continue his progression.

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I do agree that Jake lacks some intangible or at least it is under utilized or under developed.  

 

Don't know what makes enigmas tick, but Jake is an enigma.  

 

 

That said, 18 goals on the third line in less than 70 games.  

 

That is an plus 20 goal season, or 2nd line production without second line mates.  

 

So Jake is already achieving the production, but he is a frustrating player because he has so much more in him.  

 

Would love to see him be swapped for a change of scenery for a equal value player.  

 

Too Bad Keenan wasn't still lurking somewhere, he would make or break shotgun Jake. 

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I think the work ethic and professionalism is what is hurting him more than his hockey IQ. Showing to camp out of shape and seeming disinterested in his play. Work that up and he can get a top 6 player easily. 

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13 hours ago, PositionOfPower said:

Agree 100%  he lacks hockey iq and 'wants' to play a finesse game in a big body. Problem with this is, if he had hands like Benn or Rick Nash he can but just doesn't have it. He is at best a 3rd liner.

 

All he does or is deeply programmed to do is:

a) skate through the wings shoot a low percentage low shot from the side which never goes in.

 

b) skate through the sides to the back of net around other side and pass it off.

 

To really change him is to coach/change that deeply engrained bad programming, very simple type of player. Only thing keeping him in is his skating and sometimes good shot and sometimes hitting. Never seen him just drive through the net and crash and bang then tussle with some defenders after the whistle. 

 

I would have traded him a long time ago to be honest. Simply put he plays like a bigger Mason Raymond with better shot, very similar areas where the attack.

 

 

the two points you stated like a and b are spot on thats literally what i was thinking but dont have the english ability to describe it. wow perfect

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Hockey is not ALL about being able to read what other players will do, sometimes there is something called Chemistry. That can be learned

Look at the Sedins, for years it was look for someone to play with them, but just about every player that was with them had career years in scoring and points, they had chemistry.

This hockey iq stuff is something described for the most elite players that can carry a line all by themselves.

 

From draft day he was described by the team as a power forward but they drafted him because he scored 45 goals.If he had the same expectations put on him as Gaudette or the same chances as Boeser maybe he would be better.

The off ice issues aren't helping but if he can get past that he has gifts that can't be taught. If he worked at it he has explosive acceleration and a truly wicked wrist shot.

 

Because he has been used as a distraction for losing he now has a reputation, possible unearned. Sure he was a dissapointment being drafted #6 overall, but he didn't force anyone to draft him, again it was ????? fault?

 

I think remove the magnifying glass and just give him icetime, no one player causes a team to lose, every goal started 4 or 5 seconds earlier, a series of events that start and then ended with a goal.

 

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On 10/15/2020 at 1:35 PM, wildcam said:

Some of the fans bashing on here will be all over Jim Benning after he is traded and scores 22-25 goal....Bashers will be saying Vancouver should of kept Virtanen longer he is only 24.... 

Same idiots that Bashed Benning for Miller trade ? 

Same idiots that were upset Benning never signed Markstrom to 6 yr 6 million no trade deal..

Same idiots that were upset Benning never resigned Tanev  4yrs X 4.5 limited trade....Ridiculous deal

Some idiots never liked the Schmidt deal and that says so so much about these people that post on here..

Nate was top minute guy for Vegas during playoffs run and that says it all... All around top #2 D man on any team...

 

Holtby - another great pickup 2 yr deal and he will be exposed in expansion draft..

 

At least Benning and group never listen  or read there posts..

Bernning and team did great job and more deals to come..

Virtanen will be signed 2 yrs 2.6 million...Maybe traded at some point...

Ditto and despite the issues (proven by hindsight) the team is still trending in the right direction..

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21 hours ago, PositionOfPower said:

Yes his goals total increased but general pattern of play is the same. Seems you were missing out when he played in the bubble where it all matters.

Actually I did watch every shift of his playoffs and using the eye test, he did things quite well for the roles he played and he had better stats than the stats showed and if you want to talk about the season, he did the things right (of course he missed some assignments and missed a few hits but they all do) 

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On 10/15/2020 at 5:49 PM, oldnews said:

good example of how low the Province is/was willing to bottomfeed....

I disagree completely. They were just reporting what happened online through social media after the loss. There was an explosion of PEOPLE across Canada blaming Jake online for the loss, making him the goat - which is reflected in the headline. Both of the articles (yes I read them) actually defended Jake. The headline reflected public opinion, which was true, not the opinion Province writers. I don't see how that is bottom feeding on their part. Should they have ignored that explosion of online blame because he's a local kid or Canucks draft pick? I wasn't upset about the headline or the linked articles at all. I was upset about the number of people across Canada laying ALL the blame on Jake for the loss. 

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On 10/16/2020 at 8:24 AM, Phat Fingers said:

I do agree that Jake lacks some intangible or at least it is under utilized or under developed.  

 

Don't know what makes enigmas tick, but Jake is an enigma.  

 

 

That said, 18 goals on the third line in less than 70 games.  

 

That is an plus 20 goal season, or 2nd line production without second line mates.  

 

So Jake is already achieving the production, but he is a frustrating player because he has so much more in him.  

 

Would love to see him be swapped for a change of scenery for a equal value player.  

 

Too Bad Keenan wasn't still lurking somewhere, he would make or break shotgun Jake. 

Six (1/3) of those goals came on the PP rather than third line. Making his actual third line production decent rather than good. Splitting hairs here.

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8 minutes ago, Baggins said:

I disagree completely. They were just reporting what happened online through social media after the loss. There was an explosion of PEOPLE across Canada blaming Jake online for the loss, making him the goat - which is reflected in the headline. Both of the articles (yes I read them) actually defended Jake. The headline reflected public opinion, which was true, not the opinion Province writers. I don't see how that is bottom feeding on their part. Should they have ignored that explosion of online blame because he's a local kid or Canucks draft pick? I wasn't upset about the headline or the linked articles at all. I was upset about the number of people across Canada laying ALL the blame on Jake for the loss. 

great points Baggins.  

I think if what you are indicating wasn't an outlier, I might tend to give them the benefit of the doubt more than I do/did in this instance (which may misrepresent them to the extent that you feel they are 'defending' Virtanen).

The larger point is certainly true - this didn't really originate with the Province - so I take your point (although the Province's own track record in this kind of sense, has still been pretty damn bleak - they don't need cues from social media or Onterrible media in order to engage in trolling this team).  I'm not going to dredge the many examples - because your point is not a general one - in this particular case, I think your point is a really good one.

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