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I dont think Virtanen has the IQ to become a top 6 forward.

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apollo18
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On 10/15/2020 at 1:29 PM, RowdyCanuck said:

I'm sorry if Tom Wilson can be a top line player so can Jake ha 

please tell me how high wilsons IQ is ha 

at least Wilson hits, Jake doesn't even try to hit anymore. In fact he gets hit more often, see McNabb in vegas series.

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2 hours ago, DefCon1 said:

at least Wilson hits, Jake doesn't even try to hit anymore. In fact he gets hit more often, see McNabb in vegas series.

Yeah 4th on the team in hits with 102 last year, yeah he doesn't hit anymore. :picard:

 

Player Age Pos GP G A PTS +/- PIM EV PP SH GW EV PP SH S S% TOI ATOI OPS DPS PS BLK HIT
FOW FOL FO%
1 J.T. Miller 26 C 69 27 45 72 11 47 18 9 0 3 27 16 2 165 16.4 1387 20:06 6.0 1.9 7.9 38 123 425 293 59.2
2 Tyler Motte 24 C 34 4 4 8 -10 10 4 0 0 0 4 0 0 38 10.5 446 13:07 -0.1 0.1 0.0 37 118 8 11 42.1
3 Alexander Edler 33 D 59 5 28 33 13 62 4 1 0 1 22 6 0 118 4.2 1334 22:37 2.1 3.7 5.8 162 108 0 0  
4 Jake Virtanen 23 RW 69 18 18 36 -4 41 12 6 0 6 15 3 0 150 12.0 903 13:05 2.9 0.8 3.7 28 102
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8 hours ago, 5Fivehole0 said:

Because they want instant gratification. Same deal with Juolevi. There's a reason they aren't quitting on him.. Many NHLers have said they can't believe his speed

B-b-b-but he was a SIXTH OVERALL PICK!!! That means if he isn't an instant superstar, we need to dump him for a bag of pucks or maybe turn him into Soylent Green. D'uh, git er done JB!

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In yet another thread I will share the saga of one Todd Bertuzzi who took 5 years to begin to make the "Power Forward" impact people had expected from him. Fortunately a twit of a GM named Milbury traded him to our beloved Canucks and we reaped the benefits.

He potted 18 last year. I say we got him signed for a bargain. At the moment I will agree he's got million $ skills and a 5-cent head but if the light bulb comes on like it did for Bertuzzi we'll be happy 18 is patrolling the right side.

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On 10/15/2020 at 10:34 AM, apollo18 said:

ok so i have always been a virtanen supporter and ive watched his junior highlights and videos of him and ive also watched him closely especially during these playoffs.

all i saw during these playoffs from him was a player who literally has a ahl quality hockey iq. sure he might have speed and a build but when i watched him he never really used the speed. someone who always used there speed was someone like tuch. i was always waiting for the time for virtanen to get his legs moving but he never really had that. idrk whats wrong with him

some poeple say confidence or that he doesnt care about hockey that much but he jsut seems like a stupid hockey player. 

 

for example: most of the time i would see him on rushes he would use his speed or cut wide to get past the defender and then shoot a weak shot at a very bad angle

secondly whenever there was a cycle or picking up a dead puck along the boards he would never do proper hockey play. it seems he would just pass or try to dump the puck in more in sake of just getting rid of it rather then making a play.

 

the playoffs have been done for a while so i cant remember specific details but all i remember is that whenever i saw him i was let down, alot of times i would see a "dumb" play and virtanen would be involved. i remember on the pp he should have mad the pass to the point it was obvious and empty and he just dumped it deep down weakly lost the puck and the puck was cleared. in game 5 against stl was probably his best game but in all honestly it was pretty lucky. the first goal he had the puck and got pressured and literally passed the puck like a grenade. secondly the goal that he scored i honestly dont think he thought on that play. he picked up the puck and just shot it at allen and hoped it would go in but that was just luck. honeslty watch the game 5 stl highlights and i hope you guys see what i mean.

 

i honestly think being a top 6 forward is over for him, he just cannot compete along with other top 6 forwards, idk if its a confidence issue or what. 

the only chance i think that he will have being a staple is if hes next to petey on 1st line. if hes on second line hes just gonna bring down the whole line

 

 

discuss

Care to share your storied hockey background that allows you to gauge his hockey IQ? Probably best to let hockey folks make that assessment

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I've definitely had my frustrations with Jake. If he's in shape, he's shown a steady progression in his development and I've noticed where the game around him seems to be slowing in his mind. Comes from experience and I believe he will keep progressing. If, if, he's in shape.

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Take it with a grain of salt, I met someone at work (not in Victoria) who claims to be a personal friend of Virtanen, and thus, this guy has actually invited to hang out with Virtanen in person one day (We will see if this will actually happen).

 

So this is what I could gather from him:

 

- Virtanen's partying is 100 percent true. We all knew this already. He frequents the usual bars (Celebs, Roxy's etc). Obviously this has changed due to COVID.

- Virtanen, contrary to the noise, actually does work really hard, according to the friend, but he just parties too much (also agrees that his diet could be better). He loves hockey, and loves playing for the city. The friend excuses him somewhat for being a 20 something year old with a lot of money - why wouldn't you party? That being said, we both agreed that he's going to work hard this season.

- Friend thought Vancouver was going to walk away from Virtanen. Maybe this arbitration situation was a true 'wake up' call for Virtanen. But this doesn't make sense why the Canucks would want 2 years out of him, as opposed to 1 year.

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Have heard this since he was playing junior, but I don't think Virtanen has a hockey IQ problem at all.  Ever notice he never extends a shift?   He has a pro level conditioning problem.   This is fixable.  Good to hear that he is working out with Myers.  I'm glad the Canucks are taking another chance on him and I believe it'll pay off.       

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On 10/15/2020 at 10:34 AM, apollo18 said:

ok so i have always been a virtanen supporter and ive watched his junior highlights and videos of him and ive also watched him closely especially during these playoffs.

all i saw during these playoffs from him was a player who literally has a ahl quality hockey iq. sure he might have speed and a build but when i watched him he never really used the speed. someone who always used there speed was someone like tuch. i was always waiting for the time for virtanen to get his legs moving but he never really had that. idrk whats wrong with him

some poeple say confidence or that he doesnt care about hockey that much but he jsut seems like a stupid hockey player. 

 

for example: most of the time i would see him on rushes he would use his speed or cut wide to get past the defender and then shoot a weak shot at a very bad angle

secondly whenever there was a cycle or picking up a dead puck along the boards he would never do proper hockey play. it seems he would just pass or try to dump the puck in more in sake of just getting rid of it rather then making a play.

 

the playoffs have been done for a while so i cant remember specific details but all i remember is that whenever i saw him i was let down, alot of times i would see a "dumb" play and virtanen would be involved. i remember on the pp he should have mad the pass to the point it was obvious and empty and he just dumped it deep down weakly lost the puck and the puck was cleared. in game 5 against stl was probably his best game but in all honestly it was pretty lucky. the first goal he had the puck and got pressured and literally passed the puck like a grenade. secondly the goal that he scored i honestly dont think he thought on that play. he picked up the puck and just shot it at allen and hoped it would go in but that was just luck. honeslty watch the game 5 stl highlights and i hope you guys see what i mean.

 

i honestly think being a top 6 forward is over for him, he just cannot compete along with other top 6 forwards, idk if its a confidence issue or what. 

the only chance i think that he will have being a staple is if hes next to petey on 1st line. if hes on second line hes just gonna bring down the whole line

 

 

discuss

Well, I've given him a chance to prove his worth for a few years now and after watching another season of him being not fully committed and somewhat inconsistent - but showing some slight improvement from last year (to be fair), I would not have been surprised to have seen him packed up and on a train by now to somewhere in the deep south in a trade. No matter, it looks like the team is giving him another chance to prove his worth with his latest (acceptable) contract, which they managed to squeeze in to their limited cap room. 

 

So lets see what he can do. If he manages to get another 15-20 goals with that salary and some further improvement - I'd say "O.K.".  However, if his level of effort and commitment is marginal again this year and points drop-off a lot, I'd say try and package him up and move on - if the deal makes sense to the team. However, being realistic his new contract is fair value given his 18/18/36 points, his age and potential and he was only -4 last season - which is not the end of the world.

 

As for your comment on him not being able to break into a steady top 6 Fwd., I'd unfortunately tend to agree with that - at present.   I'd say he's currently a good 4th liner but has the potential to move up to the 3rd line with more minutes - if his consistency and playmaking abilities continue to move in the right direction but I'm afraid what's going to hold him back from 1st/2nd line duties are his lack of Hockey I.Q. and consistency, as you're "BANG-ON" with your comments re: his inability to make plays happen as he dumps the puck a fair amount, floats around a bit too much, isn't a strong back-checker and almost never passes or looks to make plays with others.   He's a classic "Born Shooter" by the textbook and this dates back to his days playing in Abbotsford Rep. (I know - I watched him in his earlier years...)

 

Hope things work out for him with the team and he proves me wrong....

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On 10/29/2020 at 2:07 PM, RU SERIOUS said:

Well, I've given him a chance to prove his worth for a few years now and after watching another season of him being not fully committed and somewhat inconsistent - but showing some slight improvement from last year (to be fair), I would not have been surprised to have seen him packed up and on a train by now to somewhere in the deep south in a trade. No matter, it looks like the team is giving him another chance to prove his worth with his latest (acceptable) contract, which they managed to squeeze in to their limited cap room. 

 

So lets see what he can do. If he manages to get another 15-20 goals with that salary and some further improvement - I'd say "O.K.".  However, if his level of effort and commitment is marginal again this year and points drop-off a lot, I'd say try and package him up and move on - if the deal makes sense to the team. However, being realistic his new contract is fair value given his 18/18/36 points, his age and potential and he was only -4 last season - which is not the end of the world.

 

As for your comment on him not being able to break into a steady top 6 Fwd., I'd unfortunately tend to agree with that - at present.   I'd say he's currently a good 4th liner but has the potential to move up to the 3rd line with more minutes - if his consistency and playmaking abilities continue to move in the right direction but I'm afraid what's going to hold him back from 1st/2nd line duties are his lack of Hockey I.Q. and consistency, as you're "BANG-ON" with your comments re: his inability to make plays happen as he dumps the puck a fair amount, floats around a bit too much, isn't a strong back-checker and almost never passes or looks to make plays with others.   He's a classic "Born Shooter" by the textbook and this dates back to his days playing in Abbotsford Rep. (I know - I watched him in his earlier years...)

 

Hope things work out for him with the team and he proves me wrong....

A couple of things.   For sure his extra 750k  was earned, and he’s worth every cent even at that amount.   His minutes last year were 3rd line, yes he spent some time with Beagle - but just as much time in the top six, the rest on the 3rd, and a staple on the second PP unit. 20/20 (let’s give him 4 more points to finish the year off) is actually very good production for 13:05 minutes a game.   Miller managed 7 more then that playing third line and first unit PP minutes....about 14:30 minutes a game..in Tampa Bay who’s about as deep/loaded as they come.

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Jake the great will hand you his beer to shotgun and make this thread look silly months from now. Can’t wait to give this a reread. Jake will prove the Ja-ters  wrong. Watch out because Big Tuna will be on the menu and on the scoresheet this season on many evenings. 

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8 hours ago, Crabby said:

Jake going to prove a lot of people wrong. If he gets put on the top line I will bet $ he pots 25+ goals

Of course he would. The way he is progressing he could very easily score at that level even if he continues to play mostly on the third line. And if he did score 25+ goals (first line goal production) from third line ice time, the usual clowns would still be looking for pretexts to hate on him.

Edited by WeneedLumme
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On 10/26/2020 at 7:16 PM, EdgarM said:

Yeah 4th on the team in hits with 102 last year, yeah he doesn't hit anymore. :picard:

 

Player Age Pos GP G A PTS +/- PIM EV PP SH GW EV PP SH S S% TOI ATOI OPS DPS PS BLK HIT
FOW FOL FO%
1 J.T. Miller 26 C 69 27 45 72 11 47 18 9 0 3 27 16 2 165 16.4 1387 20:06 6.0 1.9 7.9 38 123 425 293 59.2
2 Tyler Motte 24 C 34 4 4 8 -10 10 4 0 0 0 4 0 0 38 10.5 446 13:07 -0.1 0.1 0.0 37 118 8 11 42.1
3 Alexander Edler 33 D 59 5 28 33 13 62 4 1 0 1 22 6 0 118 4.2 1334 22:37 2.1 3.7 5.8 162 108 0 0  
4 Jake Virtanen 23 RW 69 18 18 36 -4 41 12 6 0 6 15 3 0 150 12.0 903 13:05 2.9 0.8 3.7 28 102

He should be leading his team by a wide margin not 4th

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On 10/26/2020 at 10:29 PM, 5Fivehole0 said:

Because they want instant gratification. Same deal with Juolevi. There's a reason they aren't quitting on him.. Many NHLers have said they can't believe his speed

Instant gratification is in the rear view mirror for Jake. He a five year pro now who should at the very least be showing up to camp in shape and ready to compete rather than missing set goals. Juolevi can be cut some slack as injuries have hampered his development. But after five NHL seasons Jake has no excuse for his continued inconsistency and missing offseason fitness goals. That's within his control and entirely on him.

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Ive said this before, so I am repeating myself, but these topics keep repeating!

Jakes Hockey IQ is not EP40 or elite, we know this. But its good enough. I see Virtanen as a bit of the opposite of Alex Burrows. Alex burrows didn't have the raw skills or any special physical ability but his Hockey IQ was really high, he out thought his limitations and worked really hard.

Jakes has all these physical gifts that are very rare to find one package but his hockey IQ isn't anything really special. But its not bad. difference between the two is burrows worked hard and Jake hasn't yet, but once he does his physical ability will help him overcome any perceived gaffs in hockey IQ.

anyone who has played sports has made a dumb play because they were tired, lets call a spade a spade, jakes conditioning up to this point has not been good, its actually probably pretty bad. Once Jake fixes his conditioning he will be able to think better on the ice and we will see a more consistent Jake. I can see Jake being successful playing with miller and EP40, I actually expect success and have no worries about his hockey IQ. He just needs keep on track conditioning wise, once he does, he will prove the doubters very wrong.


 

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Even if Virtanen doesn't develop into a top player he has the skills and attributes to augment a top line imho...

 

Speed, good shot, decent size, can get pucks  out of the corners, lay some hits and he is probably tough enough to protect a finesse guy to some degree.

 

A lot of top lines are made up of one or two stars and a player that compliments their style.

 

I personally like his ability to retrieve pucks in the offensive zone in that regard.

 

 

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