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I dont think Virtanen has the IQ to become a top 6 forward.

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On 10/27/2020 at 11:17 AM, TheCammer said:

Care to share your storied hockey background that allows you to gauge his hockey IQ? Probably best to let hockey folks make that assessment

Most hockey fans that have been paying attention for any significant period of time can tell the difference between a low IQ and high IQ player.

 

You don't have to be a hockey savant or in NHL management or anything.

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2 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

Most hockey fans that have been paying attention for any significant period of time can tell the difference between a low IQ and high IQ player.

 

You don't have to be a hockey savant or in NHL management or anything.

There are a whole bunch of members of this forum who regularly use the "Appeal to Authority" logical fallacy to demonstrate their so called knowledge of the sport. I pretty much universally roll my eyes at anyone who claims to have played high level hockey as a reason as to why I should take their opinion seriously, as opposed to the actual substance of the opinion itself.

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2 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

Most hockey fans that have been paying attention for any significant period of time can tell the difference between a low IQ and high IQ player.

 

You don't have to be a hockey savant or in NHL management or anything.

Shades of the Trump thread. Outlandish claims. 

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1 hour ago, xereau said:

There are a whole bunch of members of this forum who regularly use the "Appeal to Authority" logical fallacy to demonstrate their so called knowledge of the sport. I pretty much universally roll my eyes at anyone who claims to have played high level hockey as a reason as to why I should take their opinion seriously, as opposed to the actual substance of the opinion itself.

Well, then there are the people who never skated or who come from places without ice who also make claims too on here. 
 

Pick your poison. 

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6 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Well, then there are the people who never skated or who come from places without ice who also make claims too on here. 
 

Pick your poison. 

Arguments both ways. Using a soccer analogy - Jose Mourinho never played and Arsene Wenger only played low level. Didn’t stop them being some great coaches/managers.

 

Having played helps, but just because someone has played doesn’t mean they are an expert. Not all players make good coaches. 
 

ironic that people use the argument of not playing in a thread about hockey IQ of a player, kinda contradictory 

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9 minutes ago, UKNuck96 said:

Arguments both ways. Using a soccer analogy - Jose Mourinho never played and Arsene Wenger only played low level. Didn’t stop them being some great coaches/managers.

 

Having played helps, but just because someone has played doesn’t mean they are an expert. Not all players make good coaches. 
 

ironic that people use the argument of not playing in a thread about hockey IQ of a player, kinda contradictory 

Sure.

CDC has only survived because of its wide demographic. 
 

It’s also driven away many, many, many serious hockey posters over the years though.
 

I don’t take much here seriously and if I’m being honest, yes, damn rights I’d rather hear from those who have been hit by a Virtanen than those who haven’t even played hockey, in a conversation about, Hockey. Others can go about it differently or however they wish, but I have preference, and have no trouble admitting it. 

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On 10/15/2020 at 9:34 PM, PositionOfPower said:

Agree 100%  he lacks hockey iq and 'wants' to play a finesse game in a big body. Problem with this is, if he had hands like Benn or Rick Nash he can but just doesn't have it. He is at best a 3rd liner.

 

All he does or is deeply programmed to do is:

a) skate through the wings shoot a low percentage low shot from the side which never goes in.

 

b) skate through the sides to the back of net around other side and pass it off.

 

To really change him is to coach/change that deeply engrained bad programming, very simple type of player. Only thing keeping him in is his skating and sometimes good shot and sometimes hitting. Never seen him just drive through the net and crash and bang then tussle with some defenders after the whistle. 

 

I would have traded him a long time ago to be honest. Simply put he plays like a bigger Mason Raymond with better shot, very similar areas where the attack.

Except for 18 times last year. :)

Edited by CaptKirk888
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Virtanen is not  a first liner or second but is a good third line winger who can play up, He is not constant enough or can make high end plays needed for a top line player. Lacks IQ. He is not a power forward that is needed Doesn't lead the team in hits or intimin ate anyone. 

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Jake's a talented passer, for I can't recall how many times he used his speed to take the puck to the corner at the goal line, and then flicked a saucer right into the crease.

 

18/18 from a mostly 3rd/4th line deployment while expected to play a grindy game = above average IQ at the least.


Unsure how you even quantify hockey IQ anyhow, but from what I've seen of his play he has flashes of absolute brilliance, and dumdums don't have flashes of this level of play.

 

He's getting better, and I really hope that he gets a chance to play with some higher quality linemates for an entire season rather than being bounced around like a pinata by The Incredible Sulk.

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5 minutes ago, xereau said:

Jake's a talented passer, for I can't recall how many times he used his speed to take the puck to the corner at the goal line, and then flicked a saucer right into the crease.

 

18/18 from a mostly 3rd/4th line deployment while expected to play a grindy game = above average IQ at the least.


Unsure how you even quantify hockey IQ anyhow, but from what I've seen of his play he has flashes of absolute brilliance, and dumdums don't have flashes of this level of play.

 

He's getting better, and I really hope that he gets a chance to play with some higher quality linemates for an entire season rather than being bounced around like a pinata by The Incredible Sulk.

JT Miller has made a living doing this for the most part except he goes the chip and chase route rather than carrying it to the corner. I hope Jake watches the way Miller plays and emulates him because that's exactly the type of game I believe Jake can excel in by using his speed and size to breakaway from defenders or to get them chasing.

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On 11/6/2020 at 12:00 PM, vannuck59 said:

Virtanen is not  a first liner or second but is a good third line winger who can play up, He is not constant enough or can make high end plays needed for a top line player. Lacks IQ. He is not a power forward that is needed Doesn't lead the team in hits or intimin ate anyone. 

Lets just see how this statement looks in a couple of years. ::D

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This damn thread is still alive?  How many of these do we need?

 

People will continue to hate Jake because as a 6th overall pick he isn't lighting the league on fire, but that's not Jake's fault.

 

He is producing at a 2nd late rate, given his minutes, and the stats clearly show he is capable of playing a top 6 role.  

 

His main problem isn't his lack of hockey IQ.  As others have posted, he has flashes of absolute brilliance at times.  Jake's main problem is his work ethic and his consistency.

 

Coming into camp out of shape, and his inconsistent effort are his main problem.  He is still not the type of player you give up on and just trade away for a bag of pucks.  I hope living and training with Myers this off-season will do him some good.  At the very least, there's definitely a lower chance he comes into camp overweight.

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2 hours ago, EdgarM said:

 

Jake's numbers at 24 years old

2019–20 Vancouver Canucks NHL 69 18 18 36 41

Bertuzzi's numbers at the same age

1998–99 Vancouver Canucks NHL 32 8 8 16 44

 

I think he's doing OK. ::D

Bertuzzi had the benefit of steroid-induced Roid Rage.  Virtanen is never going to go beast mode like Bertuzzi could.  

 

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2 hours ago, Coda said:

Bertuzzi had the benefit of steroid-induced Roid Rage.  Virtanen is never going to go beast mode like Bertuzzi could.  

 

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Thats what you take from Bert's career? :picard:  And it was Kessler who went "Beast Mode" not Bert.

Edited by EdgarM
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1 hour ago, EdgarM said:

Thats what you take from Bert's career? :picard:  And it was Kessler who went "Beast Mode" not Bert.

It's not the totality of Bertuzzi's career, but it is certainly significant and worth mentioning.

 

If you look into it it's quite interesting.  Bertuzzi was playing at 227 pounds up until the 2000/01 season (age 25/26) and was at best a 50 point player.  He suddenly gained nearly 20lbs and became the toughest, meanest power forward in the league.  Fast-forward past his rage-induced sucker punch of Steve Moore and within a couple of years he's back down to a 225 playing weight and a 50 point pace again.  No longer mean and no more rages.  

 

Of course Roids isn't the full story: playing with Naslund on the first line in Vancouver was a big part of his mid career success.  But back to Virtanen.  It's just generally a bad idea to expect forwards to get a lot better in their mid to late 20s.  It's pretty rare when they do.  

 

Take this study for example:

 

https://hockey-graphs.com/2017/03/23/a-new-look-at-aging-curves-for-nhl-skaters-part-1/

 

How do NHL players age? When do they peak? How quickly do they decline? Questions about player aging in the NHL have been debated for years, and an incredible amount of research has already been done trying to answer these questions. Within the past 3 years, however, it seems a general consensus has been reached. Rob Vollman summarizes this quite well in his book Stat Shot: The Ultimate Guide to Hockey Analytics: “Most players hit their peak age by age 24 or 25 then decline gradually until age 30, at which point their performance can begin to tumble more noticeably with the risk of absolute collapse by age 34 or 35.”

 

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14 hours ago, Coda said:

It's not the totality of Bertuzzi's career, but it is certainly significant and worth mentioning.

 

If you look into it it's quite interesting.  Bertuzzi was playing at 227 pounds up until the 2000/01 season (age 25/26) and was at best a 50 point player.  He suddenly gained nearly 20lbs and became the toughest, meanest power forward in the league.  Fast-forward past his rage-induced sucker punch of Steve Moore and within a couple of years he's back down to a 225 playing weight and a 50 point pace again.  No longer mean and no more rages.  

 

Of course Roids isn't the full story: playing with Naslund on the first line in Vancouver was a big part of his mid career success.  But back to Virtanen.  It's just generally a bad idea to expect forwards to get a lot better in their mid to late 20s.  It's pretty rare when they do.  

 

Take this study for example:

 

https://hockey-graphs.com/2017/03/23/a-new-look-at-aging-curves-for-nhl-skaters-part-1/

 

How do NHL players age? When do they peak? How quickly do they decline? Questions about player aging in the NHL have been debated for years, and an incredible amount of research has already been done trying to answer these questions. Within the past 3 years, however, it seems a general consensus has been reached. Rob Vollman summarizes this quite well in his book Stat Shot: The Ultimate Guide to Hockey Analytics: “Most players hit their peak age by age 24 or 25 then decline gradually until age 30, at which point their performance can begin to tumble more noticeably with the risk of absolute collapse by age 34 or 35.”

 

spacer.png

 

 

Never did I think of Bert having a "Rage" side of him and nor did I think it played an important part of the success of the "West Coast Express". Bert's soft hands and his ability to make great plays is what I remember of him. Yes he got into scraps but Bert did not do the team any good sitting in the penalty box. 

The incident with Moore compounded over several games and should have been dealt with right after Nazzy was elbowed in the head. The whole team was "raging" over that incident and the refs compounded the issue by not calling anything and why did the Colorado coach even put him(Moore) in the game knowing there was unfinished business between him and the Canucks? 

Nine times out of ten when a hockey player gives another player a shot in the head with a "gloved" hand, the player turns around and confronts his aggressor. It was a freak accident and that is that, its not like Bert two handed him with his stick to the head or anything like that. Bert was never the same player after that incident, and what he had to go through, I don't think it had anything to do with how much he weighed. 

As far as that study goes, it groups all players together and gives an "Average", I am pretty sure a "Chara" type player is going to have a way different career curve then a "Henrik Sedin". Players have many attributes which can continue to be an asset or others that diminish. No two players are the same in this respect so I think its unfair to try to group them all into one nice little package. 

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