[Signing] Flames sign Joakim Nordstrom

[Master Mind]

4 hours ago, Teemu Selänne said:

don'tttttttttt

 

4 hours ago, Teemu Selänne said:

stoppppppp

Believin'

[Provost]

On 10/19/2020 at 2:56 PM, Dazzle said:

I think elite bottom-six is rather generous. He's a center that doesn't really win faceoffs. He's got mediocre scoring, and he's 28. He's a depth signing. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Furthermore, I think it's a one way contract, not two way. The Jayce Hawrluk signing is better.

OK there sparky... another bad take.

He is an excellent 4th line player who can kills penalties.  He costs them less than most AHL players would if they got called up.  He would look really good on our 4th line and would have helped allow a Horvat line to actually play in the offensive zone every once in a while, especially at the price

After this offseason Calgary has a lot better team on paper than we do and that matters with an expected all-Canadian division.

We are currently in a position of hoping for something magical just to be a playoff team.  Currently we have downgraded in goaltending, defence, and forwards... and a whole lot of things went right for us last year to just barely make the playoffs.  Unless more significant changes happen, we are one significant injury away from fighting for the bottom spot in the league next season.

[Dazzle]

Just now, Provost said:

OK there sparky... another bad take.

He is an excellent 4th line player who can kills penalties.  He costs them less than most AHL players would if they got called up.  He would look really good on our 4th line and would have helped allow a Horvat line to actually play in the offensive zone every once in a while, especially at the price

After this offseason Calgary has a lot better team on paper than we do and that matters with an expected all-Canadian division.

We are currently in a position of hoping for something magical just to be a playoff team.  Currently we have downgraded in goaltending, defence, and forwards... and a whole lot of things went right for us last year to just barely make the playoffs.  Unless more significant changes happen, we are one significant injury away from fighting for the bottom spot in the league next season.

Lmfao, a bad take over a depth signing? Hawrluk is better for the Canucks than Nordstrom. Better offensive stats, although a small sample, and seemingly a feisty one too. Of course we won't truly know until he plays.

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, Provost said:

After this offseason Calgary has a lot better team on paper than we do

um... what? how did you arrive at this conclusion? 

[Dazzle]

Just now, Robert Long said:

um... what? how did you arrive at this conclusion? 

He just hates anything that Benning creates, that's all.

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

He just hates anything that Benning creates, that's all.

I'd just like to see how that was arrived at. Maybe in goal until the season starts and we see if Holby can regain his form you can say that, but not the rest of the team. 

[Provost]

1 minute ago, Robert Long said:

um... what? how did you arrive at this conclusion? 

If you take out just Markstrom from our team last year and insert league average goaltending we would have been a bottom 5 team.... that is how many wins he gave us.  It would be miraculous for us to get the very best goaltending in the league from a guy who has been pretty bad for the last couple years and Demko who is just starting his NHL career.  Pencil them in as average to "good" unless Demko is the player he was for 3 games in the playoffs and not the player he was during the regular season.

They now have that goaltending, as well as our best defensive D.. and we lost our other best defensive D in Stecher.  We have better top end talent, but almost nothing beyond that.  Calgary also has millions left in cap space with MANY really good players still out there who will be signing for $700k-$1 million dollar contracts. 

Maybe Calgary pays for their signings in a couple years, but they definitely improved their team fairly dramatically in the short term.  They were effectively tied with us in points last year and have gotten better while we have gotten worse... the math is pretty simple.  It leaves us with just "hoping" that something unexpected happens with our team or that their new players just fall apart.

[D-Money]

As much as I'm glad we didn't give Markstrom and Tanev those contracts in the long term, Calgary definitely got better in the short term, and we got worse (even with a great addition in Schmidt). And we were fairly even before these moves, so it's a fair assessment to say that Calgary will be better than us next season.

 

...That is, barring significant regression of some of their players, and significant improvement of some of ours.

[oldnews]

9 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Lmfao, a bad take over a depth signing? Hawrluk is better for the Canucks than Nordstrom. Better offensive stats, although a small sample, and seemingly a feisty one too. Of course we won't truly know until he plays.

I agree with this - and vice versa - that Nordstrom is a 'better signing' for Calgary than Hawryluk would be.

 

The Canucks don't need veteran depth wingers - they don't need proven penalty killers.  The Canucks have all their principal hard minutes and pk forwards = Beagle, Sutter, Motte, (LE), Pearson...returning - and arguably at least a few other candidates to compete for/step into depth forward and secondary penalty killing roles.   What they were looking for is a young potential succession forward who is versatile and can fit well - while not needing to insert this player into any of those primary roles - if he proves to be another Motte in this context - he still won't be needed to assume a center role - the team has a pair of veteran centers obviously (and an upside/secondary scoring option in Gaudette).  It would be great however if Hawryluk proves capable of stepping in as either an injury placeholder or longer term as a potential succession forward (even better if he proves NHL capable as a depth center)....

 

Calgary on the other hand - just lost Jankowski and Reider (and sent Frolik to Buffalo) = 3 of their top 6 forward penalty killers - and the three forwards that had the highest defensive zone starts for that team last season.  They needed a proven, veteran depth forward to play hard minutes imo.  Zack Rinaldo has a pretty poor showing in 19 games imo - Buddy Robinson? maybe not a player you pencil in either - and Glenn Gawdin is, like Hawryluk, still looking to earn an NHL spot.  I won't be surprised if Calgary adds another player like Nordstrom.

[Provost]

Just now, D-Money said:

As much as I'm glad we didn't give Markstrom and Tanev those contracts in the long term, Calgary definitely got better in the short term, and we got worse (even with a great addition in Schmidt). And we were fairly even before these moves, so it's a fair assessment to say that Calgary will be better than us next season.

 

...That is, barring significant regression of some of their players, and significant improvement of some of ours.

That is what we can hope for!  We had career years from a bunch of players and uncharacteristically good health from our key players last year to tie Calgary.

One long term injury to our top 6 forwards or top 4D will tank us badly.  Miller not repeating his career year will tank us badly.  Hughes having a sophomore slump will tank us badly.

I don't think there are many teams that will live on the edge more than we will due to lack of depth.  Look at Toronto, we made fun of their defence for a long time... they will probably have a better guy sitting in the press box every night than we will have on our 3rd pairing.  If you waived almost half our signed forwards today, they probably wouldn't get picked up... never mind being able to play in the top 6 in case of injuries. 

There is still time for some great roster moves to happen, but as it stands now I don't see how many people outside our market rate us as top of the pack out of the Canadian teams anymore.  Probably 4th behind Toronto, Montreal, and Calgary realistically... neck and neck with Winnipeg and Edmonton for the next spot.

[JM_]

22 minutes ago, Provost said:

If you take out just Markstrom from our team last year and insert league average goaltending we would have been a bottom 5 team.... that is how many wins he gave us.  It would be miraculous for us to get the very best goaltending in the league from a guy who has been pretty bad for the last couple years and Demko who is just starting his NHL career.  Pencil them in as average to "good" unless Demko is the player he was for 3 games in the playoffs and not the player he was during the regular season.

They now have that goaltending, as well as our best defensive D.. and we lost our other best defensive D in Stecher.  We have better top end talent, but almost nothing beyond that.  Calgary also has millions left in cap space with MANY really good players still out there who will be signing for $700k-$1 million dollar contracts. 

Maybe Calgary pays for their signings in a couple years, but they definitely improved their team fairly dramatically in the short term.  They were effectively tied with us in points last year and have gotten better while we have gotten worse... the math is pretty simple.  It leaves us with just "hoping" that something unexpected happens with our team or that their new players just fall apart.

I'm not sure how you're ranking our d group. We're much better off with Schmidt than Tanev, there's really no question about that. We'll see how our bottom 6 shakes out but there's every reason to expect Juolevi-Benn to be better than Benn-Stecher.

 

On our F group, there's literally no one other than Tkachuk thats better than what we have. Yes he's an impact player, but two years in a row now where he can't carry the rest of the powder puff group.

 

Like I said, we'll see on goal. 

[AV.]

Why is the comparison between Nordstrom and Hawrlyuk still going on?  It was between Nordstrom and Roussel because, you know, they're both LWs playing the same role in the bottom six.

 

I have no idea why a certain user felt the need to bring up Hawryluk's name at all.  Like, at any point.  

 

Regardless, I've just been laughing away at how much dirt one can eat because they're too stubborn and quite possibly deluded to know when to quit.

 

[Dazzle]

Just now, Alain Vigneault said:

Why is the comparison between Nordstrom and Hawrlyuk still going on?  It was between Nordstrom and Roussel because, you know, they're both LWs playing the same role in the bottom six.

 

I have no idea why a certain user felt the need to bring up Hawryluk's name at all.  Like, at any point.  

 

Regardless, I've just been laughing away at how much dirt one can eat because they're too stubborn and quite possibly deluded to know when to quit.

 

That actually perfectly describes you. I feel like this is a confession on your part, particularly about eating dirt and contradicting yourself at every turn.

 

You may have ignored me, but I'll still make you read my posts that remind you of how biased you are.

[oldnews]

11 minutes ago, D-Money said:

As much as I'm glad we didn't give Markstrom and Tanev those contracts in the long term, Calgary definitely got better in the short term, and we got worse (even with a great addition in Schmidt). And we were fairly even before these moves, so it's a fair assessment to say that Calgary will be better than us next season.

 

...That is, barring significant regression of some of their players, and significant improvement of some of ours.

"So what you're saying".....

 

Is that Tanev is better than Brodie and Hamonic.

 

You might not want to let Leafs fans in on that....

 

They just dumped a 20 goal scorer in order to give Brodie that 5 x 4 + NMC deal.....

 

In terms of the Canucks - it's hard to argue (even for me) that Tanev is better than Schmidt.

 

The real wild card here - will be how much of Markstrom's shoes Demko can fill.

 

The other issue is a bit murky - because Toffoli really had little to do with the team's playoff performance...

He was arguably - (no fault of his own - he was playing injured) the worst player on the ice for Vancouver in the playoffs.

60.8% ozone starts,

43.3% corsi

Team worst .900 on ice sv%

-4 in 7 games.

 

So while we can assume that losing Toffoli hurts the team at 2RW - we also have to look at the reality - that when he was in the lineup at the end of the regular season - it was largely a move to account for the injury/loss of Boeser - and when he was in the lineup in the playoffs - he had a negative impact unfortunately - in other words - the team's performance late in the season - and in the series before Vegas - was with essentially 1 top 6 RW.....The idea that they are taking a step back there - ignores the fact that they never really had both Boeser and Toffoli healthy and in the lineup (Boeser wasn't really healthy in the playoffs either...).

 

So I think the assumption of the Canucks taking a step back - depends to a large extent on Markstrom alone - and the team's ability to 1) protect Demko in this transition and 2) win games when Holtby is between the pipes.

 

I'm also not prepared to assume that they'll have to enter the season with Ferland, Virtanen, Gaudette, Leivo, or gawd forbid LE at 2RW....While a few of those guys could be solid enough (ie. a healthy Ferland) or one of the others stepping up - there is a still the possibilty that they could go to the market....

 

I have no idea what Ottawa is doing this offseason - I would not have predicted they'd go out and spend 15 million of their cap space without cutting a single deal where they leverage or take advantage of the cap landscape (nor would I have guessed that there'd essentially be only one or a few cap dump deals throughout the entire league (ie Staal to Detroit)....

But if there were a deal possible - ie to send Gaudette + their way (with some cap ie a Roussel) and return a lowballed Connor Brown (who might not be that impressed with those negotiations against the backdrop of a 2nd and prospect + 6.25 to Murray, 5 to Dadanov, a pick (and 4.0 million) for Gudbranson....)  then I'd argue that the team could wind up 'better' on paper than they were last year, particularly if they can add one of those bargain basement deflated 3RHD on the market (ie Hainsey).   Add Schmidt, Brown, Hainsey vs Tanev, 1/2 of a Toffoli, and Stecher....while having a boatload of wildcard young players to uptick....

There may be a bit of work to do - but I don't see it as unrealistic at all to come out of the offseason better on paper than they were - and that will be a difficult task for most competitive teams this offseason.

Calgary was positioned quite well - the timing of this Covid stall lined up nicely with a fair amount of cap and secondary pieces expiring....the Canucks were a bit exposed with Markstrom, Tanev and Toffoli overlapping with Covid and Luongo recrap - but I think the counterindication of the market - ie players like Ekman-larsson and Schmidt being interested in coming here (and other teams being in even tighter spots than this one) may have helped turn that first critical piece in the puzzle.  Schmidt as a two way puck moving guy - at a marginal 1.5 more than Tanev - really fit the bill.  That was fortunate (against the backdrop of some pretty crappy luck and timing otherwise).  Another crafty move or two - with lots of time and opportunities still out there (ie Tampa has yet to make a move...) and DimJim's build may actually be in as good (or better) shape than they entered this offseason.

[D-Money]

4 minutes ago, oldnews said:

"So what you're saying".....

 

Is that Tanev is better than Brodie and Hamonic.

I'm not a big Brodie fan. He complimented Giordano well when they were together, but wasn't very good when they were apart.

 

Tanev is a pretty even trade off for Hamonic.

The wild card though is Valimaki - that kid is legit. Would not surprise me if he replaces Brodie and then some.

 

Regardless, even if they are worse on defense, it pales in comparison to how much significantly better their goaltending should be. And for us, even though Schmidt and Juolevi/Rathbone may end up a solid improvement to the D-corps, the inverse in net is also likely true.

[oldnews]

44 minutes ago, Provost said:

If you take out just Markstrom from our team last year and insert league average goaltending we would have been a bottom 5 team.... that is how many wins he gave us.  It would be miraculous for us to get the very best goaltending in the league from a guy who has been pretty bad for the last couple years and Demko who is just starting his NHL career.  Pencil them in as average to "good" unless Demko is the player he was for 3 games in the playoffs and not the player he was during the regular season.

They now have that goaltending, as well as our best defensive D.. and we lost our other best defensive D in Stecher.  We have better top end talent, but almost nothing beyond that.  Calgary also has millions left in cap space with MANY really good players still out there who will be signing for $700k-$1 million dollar contracts. 

Maybe Calgary pays for their signings in a couple years, but they definitely improved their team fairly dramatically in the short term.  They were effectively tied with us in points last year and have gotten better while we have gotten worse... the math is pretty simple.  It leaves us with just "hoping" that something unexpected happens with our team or that their new players just fall apart.

 

27 minutes ago, Provost said:

That is what we can hope for!  We had career years from a bunch of players and uncharacteristically good health from our key players last year to tie Calgary.

One long term injury to our top 6 forwards or top 4D will tank us badly.  Miller not repeating his career year will tank us badly.  Hughes having a sophomore slump will tank us badly.

I don't think there are many teams that will live on the edge more than we will due to lack of depth.  Look at Toronto, we made fun of their defence for a long time... they will probably have a better guy sitting in the press box every night than we will have on our 3rd pairing.  If you waived almost half our signed forwards today, they probably wouldn't get picked up... never mind being able to play in the top 6 in case of injuries. 

There is still time for some great roster moves to happen, but as it stands now I don't see how many people outside our market rate us as top of the pack out of the Canadian teams anymore.  Probably 4th behind Toronto, Montreal, and Calgary realistically... neck and neck with Winnipeg and Edmonton for the next spot.

The two bolded parts are extremely hard to take seriously.

 

First - referring to Stecher as the next best defensive D to Tanev - is just....????

I mean I love the guy but let's get real here.

 

Serious disrespect to Edler.   Stecher's defensive numbers cannot be separated from playing with Edler - who was actually the team's other best defensive D along with Tanev.

Stecher was this team's 6th penalty killing D - 5th if you remove one of Benn or Fantenburg from the mix.

As for fluffing the Leafs #7 relative to our 3rd pairing - again - I think you might have your 'Stecher goggles' on looking at Dermotts, or Bogosians, or Sandin or even Lehtonen (who 'could be' a great signing.

 

But again - the Canucks are not done - there are countless teams (ie Boston who have two top 4 LHD to sign/acquire) that have lots of work to do - and whether or not the Canucks acquire/sign more depth D (I suspect they will add at least another D) - your take on players like Juolevi, (or Rathbone) is awfully premature, presuming the Leafs depth will be relatively superior is curious at best (trying to be 'polite' here).

[oldnews]

41 minutes ago, D-Money said:

I'm not a big Brodie fan. He complimented Giordano well when they were together, but wasn't very good when they were apart.

 

Tanev is a pretty even trade off for Hamonic.

The wild card though is Valimaki - that kid is legit. Would not surprise me if he replaces Brodie and then some.

 

Regardless, even if they are worse on defense, it pales in comparison to how much significantly better their goaltending should be. And for us, even though Schmidt and Juolevi/Rathbone may end up a solid improvement to the D-corps, the inverse in net is also likely true.

I consider Tanev an upgrade on Brodie - I think Calgary will be able to replace any Brodie upside from within....they have talented young D (that don't really 'count' in their upgrading additions - any more than a Juolevi would here)....

 

I'd be curious what team in the NHL people would consider to have 'improved' on paper moreso than the Flames this offseason?

 

So - are 'we' attempting to measure this offseason against one of, if not the team best positioned/most fortunate in terms of timing - for this Covid thing?

 

Fair enough to do so - and personally - I don't mind seeing Calgary improve - particularly when they do so by realizing that our expiring players are significant upgrades on what they had lol...

But like I said - even relative to Calgary - this team isn't done and still has some decent opportunities to close the paper gap...

And the idea that EP, Hughes, Miller, etc could regress or have 'sophomore' seasons here...that stuff imo is what iffing - we can just as easily 'what if' in the opposite sense - what if Hughes continues to improve, what if Gaudette takes another step, what if Hoglander breaks in, what if, what if....lots of uptick contingency for each team, but arguably more remaining in the pipeline for this team....

[RomanP]

1 hour ago, Provost said:

Calgary also has millions left in cap space with MANY really good players still out there who will be signing for $700k-$1 million dollar contracts. 
 

Sorry, but "millions left" is an overstatement. They have $3.2 mil in cap space to sign 5 more players (they have 18 players roster at the moment). League minimum this season is $700,000, so even if add all 5 of these at the league minimum - you will need $3.5 mil. All their top end prospects are on ELCs, which are higher than $700,000. They are definitely not out of the woods.

[oldnews]

this thread's gonna set a record lol - for length - of a non-Canuck depth signing thread....

[Provost]

2 minutes ago, RomanP said:

Sorry, but "millions left" is an overstatement. They have $3.2 mil in cap space to sign 5 more players (they have 18 players roster at the moment). League minimum this season is $700,000, so even if add all 5 of these at the league minimum - you will need $3.5 mil. All their top end prospects are on ELCs, which are higher than $700,000. They are definitely not out of the woods.

Interesting take that $3.2 million isn't "millions"... it is literally, objectively millions. 

They, along with most teams, are not going to have 23 man rosters.  There will be either taxi squads of guys practicing with the team and not on the roster counting towards the cap or our farm team will be local.  There is no way to do it otherwise since you can't be flying AHL players around the continent with the various public health rules.

so with 21-22 players on the roster and a bunch of very good players left on the market who will be on PTOs or near league minimum deals, they can flesh out the rest of their roster just fine... certainly with much better players and values than what we are giving our depth guys.