Elias Pettersson Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Alain Vigneault said: I think Demko will do well but the biggest thing is that more teams will start developing a playbook on him. Much like Jordan Binnington looked like the real deal en route to dragging St. Louis into the playoffs and winning them the cup, once teams started paying more attention to him, he didn't look all that impressive. It's easy for Demko to look great now when he plays once every two weeks on a B2B but with him getting 60-70% of the starts, more teams will learn him. Everything else here is opinion. FWIW, I take our forward core over Calgary's too but at the moment, their squad is a bit better than ours based on the moves made this off-season. Yes the biggest fear with Demko is that now that teams have seen him like you said they will develop a playbook on him. But like every goalie in the NHL that is something that Demko will have to overcome. Working with Ian Clark I think will be a key factor in turning Demko into a top #1 goaltender. I think Clark played a key role in Markstrom's development, so I see the same thing happening with Demko. Demko has much more raw talent than Binnington and is a much bigger goalie which will help him cover up any flaws he has as he will be able to cover much more of the net. Edited October 22, 2020 by Elias Pettersson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Alain Vigneault said: I think Demko will do well but the biggest thing is that more teams will start developing a playbook on him. Much like Jordan Binnington looked like the real deal en route to dragging St. Louis into the playoffs and winning them the cup, once teams started paying more attention to him, he didn't look all that impressive. It's easy for Demko to look great now when he plays once every two weeks on a B2B but with him getting 60-70% of the starts, more teams will learn him. Everything else here is opinion. FWIW, I take our forward core over Calgary's too but at the moment, their squad is a bit better than ours based on the moves made this off-season. bolded part was/is a false narrative though. he 'dragged' no one to nor won them a Cup. he was the flavour of the season that happened to coincide with that team's peak. Pietrangelo, Parayko, Bouwmeester, Edmundson, Bortuzzo, Gunnarrsson, Dunn.... not exactly the hardest blueline to play behind.... 2017/18 Carter Hutton 32 games in St Louis .931 sv%, 17w, 7L 2018/19 Binnington 32 games in St L .927 sv%, 24W, 5L Playoffs = .914 sv%, 16W, 10L. 2019/20 Allen 29 games .927 sv%, 12W, 6L. Nothing particularly special about Binnington - he happened to have fortunate timing - playing behind a great team - at their best - otherwise, he's pretty average and nothing really sets him apart from Hutton or Allen 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboose Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 6 minutes ago, oldnews said: bolded part was/is a false narrative though. he 'dragged' no one to nor won them a Cup. he was the flavour of the season that happened to coincide with that team's peak. Pietrangelo, Parayko, Bouwmeester, Edmundson, Bortuzzo, Gunnarrsson, Dunn.... not exactly the hardest blueline to play behind.... 2017/18 Carter Hutton 32 games in St Louis .931 sv%, 17w, 7L 2018/19 Binnington 32 games in St L .927 sv%, 24W, 5L Playoffs = .914 sv%, 16W, 10L. 2019/20 Allen 29 games .927 sv%, 12W, 6L. Nothing particularly special about Binnington - he happened to have fortunate timing - playing behind a great team - at their best - otherwise, he's pretty average and nothing really sets him apart from Hutton or Allen You're basically ignoring the start that St. Louis had that year before Binnington got called up from the AHL. They were bottoms of the league in like December no? The other goalies played behind that blue line too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Caboose said: You're basically ignoring the start that St. Louis had that year before Binnington got called up from the AHL. They were bottoms of the league in like December no? The other goalies played behind that blue line too. No - I'm simply not pretending that the league's best team turning around a horrendous first half can be equated with Binnington 'dragging' them anywhere. As I pointed out - his outcomes really weren't any better than comparable samples of Allen or Hutton... That team was not a bottomfeeder, period. They were going to "return to the mean" / rise dramatically, regardless. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboose Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Just now, oldnews said: No - I'm simply not pretending that the league's best team turning around a horrendous first half can be equated with Binnington 'dragging' them anywhere. As I pointed out - his outcomes really weren't any better than comparable samples of Allen or Hutton... That team was not a bottomfeeder, period. They were going to "return to the mean" / rise dramatically, regardless. I guess it's just a philosophical disagreement. I'd say a goalie playing that way inspires a team that was clearly lacking inspiration. Binnington may not have dragged them to the cup but IMO it cannot be argued that he was not a major catalyst. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Caboose said: I guess it's just a philosophical disagreement. I'd say a goalie playing that way inspires a team that was clearly lacking inspiration. Binnington may not have dragged them to the cup but IMO it cannot be argued that he was not a major catalyst. yes - it can certainly be seen as a chicken/egg question. For me - watching that SC playoffs (of two years ago when they won) - I didn't find him particularly impressive - don't really care for his game - thought he got over-fluffed all year - and expected him to regress - so I'm not the least bit surprised by his own 'return to mean'. At the same time, I can't say he wasn't a "catalyst" (or didn't have his 'moment') - but that was not really what I was saying. Edited October 22, 2020 by oldnews 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 On 10/21/2020 at 9:58 AM, Provost said: OK there sparky... another bad take. He is an excellent 4th line player who can kills penalties. He costs them less than most AHL players would if they got called up. He would look really good on our 4th line and would have helped allow a Horvat line to actually play in the offensive zone every once in a while, especially at the price The thread that keeps on giving.... I think it's fairly well established in this thread that he's a LW. Meaning yours is "another bad take". Nordstrom is not as good as Tyler Motte. This post - against the backdrop off all your incessant whining about Beagle and Motte getting "buried"- a corsi-gazing, highlight reel concept of the game - in here fluffing Nordstrom...is priceless flip flopping. Leaking obvious contradiction all over the place. If Benning signed this guy you'd be calling him a 'possession black hole' and a plug with no upside. The ironing is delicious. And the whole "would have helped allow a Horvat line" is my favorite part. Ermagerd, Nordstrom's corsizz was 35.4% in the playoffz. Just awfulz. Got buried all the time! Horibble pozzezzion player! Howz he gonna helpz Horvat? But the part you never get = Nordstrom's 'horrible possession' numbers (if you'd bothered to look) are to be expected. So are Motte and Beagle's btw.... Nordstrom -6 in the playoffs. .885 on ice sv%. 4 takeaways 0 goals, 2 pts. Motte even 0 .949 on ice sv% 17 takeaways (6th in the NHL). 2nd best differential in the NHL. 4 goals, 5 pts. Motte throws more hits (18th in the NHL), Motte blocks more shots (7th in the NHL), Motte kills more penalties, Motte scores more... I referred to Nordstrom as a good depth, hard minutes forward, and penalty killer - because he is. But your 'take' in here is comical. If only DimJim could spot a good 4th liner as well as you.... But most importantly for the sake of this thread, Motte is a better center as well lol! 42.1% faceoffs this year. 14.3 for Nordstrom 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 On 10/19/2020 at 1:34 PM, Alain Vigneault said: Flames signing an elite bottom-six player for league minimum while we toil around with PIMs-central Roussel? Makes you wonder.. Treliving well-clear at the top... Nordstrom is a 4th line LW - his Canuck comparable - is Tyler Motte. I'm curious what you think makes Nordstrom an "elite bottom six"? You seem to "wonder" a lot about DimJim relative to Treliving... For additional irony, before you fluff Treliving too much... The Flames 3LW is.....$5.25 million Milan Lucic......"well clear at the top..." ! "Makes you wonder" if only DimJim makes 'mistakes'.... 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, oldnews said: The thread that keeps on giving.... I think it's fairly well established in this thread that he's a LW. Meaning yours is "another bad take". Again, even the most basic research is beyond you. He can play either wing. All your “him or Motte” ranting is nonsense... or WADR as you call it. Also, Motte can play either wing... and they both have experience playing centre. Somehow in the dark recesses of your tortured thought processes it is bad to have guys who can play all three forward positions? You know, because injuries never happen and Coaches hate having versatility to make up line combinations... Our team lacks PKers and has to use one of our best offensive forwards to do it. Having a guy like Norstrom who is effectively a PK specialist would give us a 2nd pairing to do that job and free up Horvat from much of that role. SCOUTING REPORT Owns a very projectable frame and plenty of lineup versatility, mainly due to his polished game. Can kill penalties with aplomb and play either wing position. Does not have a lot of scoring ability at the NHL level. Also, he could stand to add more bulk in order to withstand the rigors of the National Hockey League. http://www.sportsforecaster.com/nhl/player/7880 https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/canucks-under-the-microscope-tyler-motte Edited October 23, 2020 by Provost 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Provost said: Again, even the most basic research is beyond you. All your “him or Motte” ranting is nonsense... or WADR as you call it. Also, Motte can play either wing... and they both have experience playing centre. Somehow in the dark recesses of your tortured thought processes it is bad to have guys who can play all three forward positions? Our team lacks PKers and has to use one of our best offensive forwards to do it. Having a guy like Norstrom who is effectively a PK specialist would give rid a 2nd pairing to do that job and free up Horvat from much of that role. SCOUTING REPORT Owns a very projectable frame and plenty of lineup versatility, mainly due to his polished game. Can kill penalties with aplomb and play either wing position. Does not have a lot of scoring ability at the NHL level. Also, he could stand to add more bulk in order to withstand the rigors of the National Hockey League. http://www.sportsforecaster.com/nhl/player/7880 https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/canucks-under-the-microscope-tyler-motte I hate seeing Horvat on the PK. If JB can figure out how to change this, awesome. I suggest Lowry, even though this suggestion is getting so old, just like the player. The Joe Thornton signing didn’t help TO in that regard either, though it may help their Cs elsewhere, making it somewhat an interesting scheme. I caution anyone comparing players 1:1 over the stretch of one playoffs (series). - Motte possibly becomes a better forward than Malkin, or some ridiculous thing like that while playing this type of game. It’s too opportunistic or a cherry picking to be constructive in an argument. It’s a supporting piece, sure. @oldnews Over the past several years as GM of the Canucks, would you have rather been saddled with LE’s contract and play, or Lucic’s? It’s just a roster question. No explanation necessary, just the player choice, as I’m genuinely curious. Edited October 23, 2020 by 189lb enforcers? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said: I hate seeing Horvat on the PK. If JB can figure out how to change this, awesome. I suggest Lowry, even though this suggestion is getting so old, just like the player. The Joe Thornton signing didn’t help TO in that regard either, though it may help their Cs elsewhere, making it somewhat an interesting scheme. I caution anyone comparing players 1:1 over the stretch of one playoffs (series). - Motte possibly becomes a better forward than Malkin, or some ridiculous thing like that while playing this type of game. It’s too opportunistic or a cherry picking to be constructive in an argument. It’s a supporting piece, sure. @oldnews Over the past several years as GM of the Canucks, would you have rather been saddled with LE’s contract and play, or Lucic’s? It’s just a roster question. No explanation necessary, just the player choice, as I’m genuinely curious. This is an excellent point that I have made a few times before. Based on just the playoffs, our top 6 winger should be Motte or Sutter, and Demko is the best goalie in the history of the game. No one who actually understands stats uses tiny sample sizes and makes conclusions from them. If you backed up a step and tried to come up with a confidence level for how reliable those stats are without appropriate sample sizes, the variability becomes higher. In this case, the difference between the two players is certainly less than the variability you would expect in the stats. When you see polls that show +/- 4% 19 times out of 20... and shows two candidates 1% apart... that doesn’t mean one is ahead, it is within the margin of error, and those polls have large sample sizes vs. just a few games. As I said above though, the comparison between them is a red herring because it wouldn’t have been a choice between them, they can play multiple positions. Would folks argue they wouldn’t want another Motte in the 4th line? Or a 2nd PK pairing of Sutter-Nordstrom to go with Motte-Beagle? Edited October 23, 2020 by Provost 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AV. Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 4 hours ago, oldnews said: Nordstrom is a 4th line LW - his Canuck comparable - is Tyler Motte. I'm curious what you think makes Nordstrom an "elite bottom six"? You seem to "wonder" a lot about DimJim relative to Treliving... For additional irony, before you fluff Treliving too much... The Flames 3LW is.....$5.25 million Milan Lucic......"well clear at the top..." ! "Makes you wonder" if only DimJim makes 'mistakes'.... Perhaps you should consult some old news and realize that Lucic was signed by Peter Chiarelli, not Brad Treliving. As for what makes Nordstrom "elite" - I watch hockey. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 4 hours ago, Provost said: This is an excellent point that I have made a few times before. No one who actually understands stats uses tiny sample sizes and makes conclusions from them. If you backed up a step and tried to come up with a confidence level for how reliable those stats are without appropriate sample sizes, the variability becomes higher. In this case, the difference between the two players is certainly less than the variability you would expect in the stats. When you see polls that show +/- 4% 19 times out of 20... and shows two candidates 1% apart... that doesn’t mean one is ahead, it is within the margin of error, and those polls have large sample sizes vs. just a few games. As I said above though, the comparison between them is a red herring because it wouldn’t have been a choice between them, they can play multiple positions. Would folks argue they wouldn’t want another Motte in the 4th line? Or a 2nd PK pairing of Sutter-Nordstrom to go with Motte-Beagle? Honestly, I haven’t been following the discussion regarding the actual player comparison going on in here. I thought it was worth chiming in only to state what I did about the practice of comparing players, any players, via small sample sizes. Also, Lucic has still been a decent, yet expensive, player and physical presence, unlike LE. - No matter how many claims about Lucic being Orange Man Bad there are on this site, there’s no denying he is a useful NHLer and, IMO, much more useful than what LE provides for the same price, especially had he been a Canuck when our rookies were being mandled at will. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 4 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said: I hate seeing Horvat on the PK. If JB can figure out how to change this, awesome. I suggest Lowry, even though this suggestion is getting so old, just like the player. The Joe Thornton signing didn’t help TO in that regard either, though it may help their Cs elsewhere, making it somewhat an interesting scheme. I caution anyone comparing players 1:1 over the stretch of one playoffs (series). - Motte possibly becomes a better forward than Malkin, or some ridiculous thing like that while playing this type of game. It’s too opportunistic or a cherry picking to be constructive in an argument. It’s a supporting piece, sure. @oldnews Over the past several years as GM of the Canucks, would you have rather been saddled with LE’s contract and play, or Lucic’s? It’s just a roster question. No explanation necessary, just the player choice, as I’m genuinely curious. Horvat is 14th on the Canucks in penalty killing ice time - and 8th among forwards - he might get one shift a game on the pk - so no need to worry about that or figuring it out - the team has lots of very capable penalty killers - and only one of those guys from last year (Schaller) has departed (hopefully to be joined by a 2nd - LE - who you ask about. To answer that - I'll take Eriksson - for a few reasons - the first being that Lucic has 3 years remaining at 5.25 million (that extra year of term is a whole lot more cap dump to dump). Second - I'd be leveraging to terminate LE - I'd probably wait on that as opposed to waste an asset to dump him - and I wouldn't hesitate to be entirely forthright about my intention to unconditionally waive him - and that he's played his last game in a Canuck's uniform. I don't need to see another training camp of LE - I don't think he 'merits' another go - this would be a rare exception where he's spent all his chances to come in and 'earn a spot' imo (the team has plenty of winger depth - his time here imo has expired). Lucic and his 3 even strength goals last year (8 of his 20 pts on the powerplay) - is equally horrible - and more of a liability (so when the production is that poor....2nd consecutive season of anemic production...the on ice question becomes six of one at best - for me it's purely a contract question and I'd avoid that extra year of Lucic in a heartbeat/borderline no-brainer.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 3 hours ago, Alain Vigneault said: Perhaps you should consult some old news and realize that Lucic was signed by Peter Chiarelli, not Brad Treliving. As for what makes Nordstrom "elite" - I watch hockey. Your first point is irrelevent. Whether Treliving signed Lucic or not - he signed Neal - and dealt cap dump for cap dump - so the sidestep is entirely irrelevent. The 'reality' is that even Stanley Cup Champions wind up with seriously declined cap dump material in their bottom six - so if people here are going to fishbowl this team, and at the same time pretend to have facepalm perspective... you need to look more realistically at teams around the league. 23 hours ago, Alain Vigneault said: The famous Nordstrom thread? Yeah, I saw that "conversation" lol. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to think that the standard or barometer for how other teams do their business is based on how the Canucks do things As for the other sidestep - er - oh - I can't substantiate my claim - but I use my "eye test" - that is facepalm material wadr. Nothing more reliable than a CDC armchair eye test. My "eye test" tells me that there are endless horrible, fishbowl takes on these boards - which I actually corroborate by looking at objective outcomes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AV. Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, oldnews said: Your first point is irrelevent. Whether Treliving signed Lucic or not - he signed Neal - and dealt cap dump for cap dump - so the sidestep is entirely irrelevent. The 'reality' is that even Stanley Cup Champions wind up with seriously declined cap dump material in their bottom six - so if people here are going to fishbowl this team, and at the same time pretend to have facepalm perspective... you need to look more realistically at teams around the league. As for the other sidestep - er - oh - I can't substantiate my claim - but I use my "eye test" - that is facepalm material wadr. Nothing more reliable than a CDC armchair eye test. My "eye test" tells me that there are endless horrible, fishbowl takes on these boards - which I actually corroborate by looking at objective outcomes. And was Neal signed to play the bottom-six? No. As for this "eye-test"on Nordstrom, its been corroborated by other users on this forum in this thread. When everybody says he's a good bottom six player, believe them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWestNuck Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 46 minutes ago, Alain Vigneault said: And was Neal signed to play the bottom-six? No. As for this "eye-test"on Nordstrom, its been corroborated by other users on this forum in this thread. When everybody says he's a good bottom six player, believe them. While I don’t have a dog in this fight (couldn’t recall even watching Nordstrom play to be honest), I have to say that using other users on this board as evidence to support your opinion isn’t a great tactic. If everyone on this board said that Erickson was earning his pay check, wouldn’t mean he was. im not saying you’re wrong or right in your assessment (again, I’ve no idea), just not a fan of your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AV. Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, NorthWestNuck said: While I don’t have a dog in this fight (couldn’t recall even watching Nordstrom play to be honest), I have to say that using other users on this board as evidence to support your opinion isn’t a great tactic. If everyone on this board said that Erickson was earning his pay check, wouldn’t mean he was. im not saying you’re wrong or right in your assessment (again, I’ve no idea), just not a fan of your argument. His original point was to say that my "eye test" wasn't good. I understand that myself and everyone else are not experts per se, but I don't see the point of lying about this and why everyone else would be too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 4 hours ago, Alain Vigneault said: As for what makes Nordstrom "elite" - I watch hockey. I had no idea elite players could be had for league minimum. #benningyouidiot 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
250Integra Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 You guys never heard of a center that doesn't take face offs? Come on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now