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Benning's plan

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On 10/28/2020 at 2:19 PM, WeneedLumme said:

I don't think the Valium would help that poster, he evidently lives to hate. Anybody predicting that the Canucks will miss the playoffs by 10 points next year and that Benning is about to lose his job is either a troll or a simpleton.

I have every confidence on past performance as a minimum expectation.

How is it that this can be ignored?

I am accused of being a troll? How about those that refuse to recognize reality?

 

First, EVERY GM loses his job, no acknowledging this is a simpleton idea.

Agreeing with the majority of the hockey world that the Canucks will not make the playoffs is not trolling

but harassing all points of view that don't agree that everything is roses and rainbows is trolling or at least a very naive mindset.

 

Hate is a personal word, I don't like Benning job performance, I think he has hurt the team and cost the team time and money without winning results, that posters are reaching back into antiquity to find excuses, they are ignoring that there are a need for excuses and are, without realizing it, agreeing that there are massive problems caused over the last 4 years, Benning's years.

So maybe it isn't me "hating" Benning but many having a man crush on him, they "love" him.

 

In a day with so much information available it is astounding that there is still so much refusal to look at numbers, numbers are not easily influenced by opinions,

Hockey is a game

A game has the intent of a winner and a loser

Winning is a measure of success, losing a measure of failure.

1 + 1 = 2

Simple concepts.

Maybe this concept has been lost because of the reset button.

 

Canucks record with Tanev: 9-4-2, record without Tanev: 8-14-1

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25 minutes ago, Lazurus said:

I have every confidence on past performance as a minimum expectation.

How is it that this can be ignored?

I am accused of being a troll? How about those that refuse to recognize reality?

 

First, EVERY GM loses his job, no acknowledging this is a simpleton idea.

Agreeing with the majority of the hockey world that the Canucks will not make the playoffs is not trolling

but harassing all points of view that don't agree that everything is roses and rainbows is trolling or at least a very naive mindset.

 

Hate is a personal word, I don't like Benning job performance, I think he has hurt the team and cost the team time and money without winning results, that posters are reaching back into antiquity to find excuses, they are ignoring that there are a need for excuses and are, without realizing it, agreeing that there are massive problems caused over the last 4 years, Benning's years.

So maybe it isn't me "hating" Benning but many having a man crush on him, they "love" him.

 

In a day with so much information available it is astounding that there is still so much refusal to look at numbers, numbers are not easily influenced by opinions,

Hockey is a game

A game has the intent of a winner and a loser

Winning is a measure of success, losing a measure of failure.

1 + 1 = 2

Simple concepts.

Maybe this concept has been lost because of the reset button.

 

Canucks record with Tanev: 9-4-2, record without Tanev: 8-14-1

Wow...huge sample size...a whole 38 games. Your argument is laughable and weak. 

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Just now, Baggins said:

What's our record with Schmidt? :rolleyes:

Juloevi, Rafferty, Rathbone and Benn, no Tanev, a shutdown guy, a key defensive player that made up for Hughes lack of defence

The defence was not great last year and now has lost it's premier defensive player, one of it best shot blockers.

Throw in a possible 3 rookies on defence and another offensive type defenceman that is new to the team.

The older vets are older and slower.

The depth is not there for either the forwards or defence.

The schedule will be compressed with less rest and recovery time. Funny thing is they talk about 15 games a month as being extremely hard, that was the Canucks schedule for the month of March last year when they were losing 2 games for every win.

Benning has the team capped out again so there is no help until maybe the TDL or expansion draft.

 

One single injury to Edler, Myers, Schmidt or Benn and the team has no NHL player replacements

 

This current cap crunch was easy to see two years ago. Even without covid. The only way out of this conundrum would have been if the owner was willing to burn another 20 millions dollars to play players not to play on this team, players not good enough to trade to anyone, SB was waived 3 times or use up the team future draft picks just to stay the same. There is no money now and they didn't spend as much if they didn't give any FA a raise at all, they were still over the cap.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, spur1 said:

Wow...huge sample size...a whole 38 games. Your argument is laughable and weak. 

Definitely a troll, prove me wrong, I offered some real facts.

  TOI Shot attempts (corsi) for per hour Shot attempts (corsi) against per hour Shot attempts (corsi) percentage
Chris Tanev with Shutdown Line 70.1 53.92 48.79 52.5
Chris Tanev without Shutdown Line 108.05 59.42 44.98 56.91
Shutdown Line without Chris Tanev 54.65 37.33 63.68 36.96

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2 hours ago, Lazurus said:

Definitely a troll, prove me wrong, I offered some real facts.

  TOI Shot attempts (corsi) for per hour Shot attempts (corsi) against per hour Shot attempts (corsi) percentage
Chris Tanev with Shutdown Line 70.1 53.92 48.79 52.5
Chris Tanev without Shutdown Line 108.05 59.42 44.98 56.91
Shutdown Line without Chris Tanev 54.65 37.33 63.68 36.96

Still weak. Maybe try adding some context. 

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On 10/29/2020 at 6:47 PM, Baggins said:

Schmidt was a shutdown guy with Vegas, a better puck mover and higher producer. He's replacing Tanev. Juolevi, or whoever, will be replacing Fantenberg. I loved Stecher's heart but his size was exposed far too often along the boards and around the net. The bottom line is this: saying losing Tanev is going to give us a losing record is false as Schmidt is his replacement and an upgrade at that. What about if Schmidt gets injured? Well that's no different than what if Tanev gets injured. Meaning that's a false narrative as the affect would be the same with either out - a knock to our shutdown ability. We have several young D-men "on the verge" so this is a time of opportunity for them. It has to happen eventually and is no cause to hit the panic button before even seeing how they perform.

 

Every team is facing the same compressed schedule. You seem to be in panic mode over nothing. I see it as an opportunity for some young guys, both forward and D, to get some NHL game experience. The team isn't truly ready to contend. This is the perfect time to test the youth waters and see what we have before letting more veterans go to free agency.

What I was parroting was what has been stated over and over again and used as an excuse more than once, an injury to Tanev and the team loses much more than usual. It doesn't cause the losing record but it does enhance it, the team hasn't had a winning record for 5 years and last year the season stopped before they went below .500 but they were headed in that direction quickly, 4 W 7 L.

 

Why is it that the loss of Markstrom is seen as such a big hit or that he was the team MVP the last two years? Every pundit kept showing where the shots came from, the number of them and the high quality of those shots. Those shots are a result of defensive play and he covered up for a weaker defense than the stats showed. I do have every confidence in Demko but this will be a very condensed schedule with little practice time and there is now way that the team defense is better with so many unknowns and the lack of NHL depth.

 

Hardly panic mode and if losing is nothing then don't ever gamble. Maybe it is that I come from a time where there was no resets, you played a game and if you lost you had to start over at the beginning. Winning was rewarded with blue, red and white ribbons and celebrated as achievement. Heck sometimes I even got a bonus for doing a good job. 

 

I totally agree that the team is not ready to compete yet but I look to the future and in just 3 short years this team is still facing the ramifications of being cap compromised now.

 

Where is the plan for improvement and for paying Hughes and Pettersson? Okay Edler and Benn come off the books, that pays Hughes but hurts the defense, Pearson comes off for Demko then Sutter and Baerstchi come off, that's money for Pettersson.

That takes care of those players but now the team needs replacements and they just don't have enough good one's in the system and are still capped out.

 

Tryamkin, at least we know he can play in the NHL, Juloevi is marginal but if there are no other players he gets elevated, then Woo, at forward put all your eggs in for Holander and Poldkozin to start off as complete NHL players.

Miller isn't getting any younger and just might want a merit earned raise, surely Horvat is worth as much as Boeser so there is another 16 or more mil.

 

This is not hard to figure out, it is very simple math especially with the certainty of the flat cap for the next 3 seasons, every person on a budget knows how to do this.

 

Intellectually there is a possibility to improve the team in the short term, the expansion draft and retaining salary at the TDL to reduce the cap hit for expansion, maybe collect up some protection spots and gather up more of those increasing valuable draft picks

 

And I agree that this and next season should be used to get all the kids in the system some ice time "to see what the team has", I will point out that is often a term used when teams tank at the end of the season, but for Vancouver it just might necessary because of the lack of players coming up through the system.

 

I do see a really big trade of a good young player coming soon.

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1 hour ago, Jai604 said:

Why do so many people conveniently forget that all these bad contracts that are so-called handcuffing the team right now were signed when this team was absolutely atrocious?

 

When your team is really bad, you pay more to outbid other teams during UFA, it's really quite simple.  If you don't improve your team and insulate your young up-and-coming stars, you end up like the Oilers getting top 3 picks year after year after year and still being absolutely garbage.  

 

Players like Sutter and Beagle do a lot more on and off the ice and in the locker room than people seem to think.  Those hard defensive zone draws and PK minutes don't play themselves, and they certainly don't get played by teenagers who weigh 170 lbs.

 

I'm not sitting here saying every single one of Benning's moves are homeruns but looking at the overall picture he's done a good job, for sure.  The other NHL GMs seem to agree.

Timing contracts for a rebuild is for sure an art.  JBs one year off on his predictions, and that’s actually a good thing.   Sure he’s not unhappy with the progress the teams made.   And even then he went all in the last 12 months to make sure the new core had all the help and depth they could possibly have under the cap to make some noise - which of course they did.   One more crack at it next season....then fun truly begins as the core approaches it’s prime. 

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On 11/9/2020 at 2:02 PM, IBatch said:

If we make the playoffs will you post a retraction?  We missed the playoffs for four whole years.   That’s better then average for a top team, or any team for that matter, going into a rebuild.   Yes the cap situation isn’t good.  TO’s most recent rebuild stuck.   Adding Tavares absolutely sped things up for them, but wow what a cap mess they have.   Haven’t got past the first round yet either ...how many games did we play again?  As a reminder it’s more then any team since the cap has started, while their new star players are still on their ELCs, other then Toews last year when they won their first cup.    ANA and CAR don’t count given they won on the strength of their core - which was still in their primes.   Comparing apples to apples here.   EDM looked like they were the next great team when they lost to ANA, but since they made the playoffs only once (this year), but don’t see us having the same issues

Retraction? Sure, but it will depend upon any new playin or number of teams making the playoffs. If the regular number, 16 by points and not point percentages, then no problem, they would not have made it last year under those normal rules.

Four years in a row, 5 out of 6.

There is something common between TO, Edmonton, Calgary and now Vancouver, they all had 2 star players and then went into cap hell trying to convince fandom that they were done and reacting to fan and media expectations of being a winner. TO had Mathews and Marner, then added Taveras IMO making them a step ahead of Edmonton, who have McDavid and Draisatl and are capped and stalled, Winnipeg has just under those players levels but have more high level overall, Calgary got Johnny Hockey and Monohan, who is not that dominant IMO, Tkachuk was a bonus when the Nucks passed on him in favor of OJ, still that "hope" carried them for 4 years.

On 11/9/2020 at 2:02 PM, IBatch said:

Plus we have one more crack at it.   Schmidt is better then Tanev, and I’m fairly confident one of OJ, or Rafferty or both will at least fill Stetcher’s spot.   Demko doesn’t need to play as well as he did to fill Markstrom’s void, although that’s a massive question mark.   Holtby for sure still has game left though.

It will be hard to say about a crack at it, true all teams will start near the top and for the first 20 games or so look very good. I am sure OJ could be a s good as Fantenberg or most of the other dmen called before him last year, Rafferty might be a slight upgrade on Stecher, maybe not as offensive but his defence, he will win more board battles. I like Demko, we have to wait and see how travel and rest is allocated this season. Tank goodness Ian Clark's contract didn't run out, he could get Holtby back on track if he has enough practice time, *see new schedule when it comes out*

On 11/9/2020 at 2:02 PM, IBatch said:

Just because Benning doesn’t provide details of his plan doesn’t mean he doesn’t have one.   That’s a little ridiculous.  Of course he does, all GMs do, and all plans are fluid based on what is going on in the trade and free agent markets.   Modify as you go.   Do you truly believe we’d be better off with Markstrom at 6 x 6 with a full NMC for the duration?   I don’t one bit.  Already struggling with knee issues.   And it’s the most fickle position - just ask Carey Price and Bobrovsky (and wow at 10 million each!),  the “new” most consistent goalies around now that Lundqvist, Luongo and before him Broduer are done

Details of a plan? Of course he says all the time what his plan is, to be competitive and try for a playoff spot and that is exactly how he manages the cap and why he trades away draft picks, trying to make the playoffs. He just isn't very successful.

Ottawa had a plan and it was communicated, in fact a 4 year plan and they are on track, NYR had a plan and again communicated it, they got lucky at the draft but they also gathered extra picks, TO had a plan and executed it, they are much younger but do yet have to get over the playoff hump, Chicago has a communicated plan and started it, Montreal, Anaheim, LA on and on, with those teams they all acted like they were rebuilding or re-tooling, they traded for extra draft picks for long term gain, in Vancouver, even though I like Miller his contract is excellent and he has added a lot to the team, he is in his prime now, hopefully he is still as good when the team hits Green's expected cup runs in 4 to 6 years. That said Benning has done nothing to enhance draft positions or get more picks, if anything he has traded more and higher quality picks than he has received.

I agree signing Markstrom would have been a mistake, it would have cost Demko.

But with what PLAN did Benning have to re-sign these guys? The starting roster for the playin round was over 91 mil in guaranteed NHL contracts? He surely didn't think his work was done and that group was the finished product. Or was he counting on the Bank Of Canada to buy out his mistakes or simply trade away more picks to move those bad contracts? What plan allowed him to spend up to 10 mil over the cap?

Benning is a "react" GM, he answers the phone, how often at the TDL did he say, "we got no phone calls" A good GM can work out trades, both Miller and Schmidt are from answering the phone, both come from top teams insuring their player isn't coming back to haunt them immediately, Vancouver was the only team that was open for business with draft picks and at the bottom of the totem pole. Montreal used to do that all the time, trade a decent player to the lower teams for their draft picks, often that player ended up being one of the best on that team, ditto Vancouver.

On 11/9/2020 at 2:02 PM, IBatch said:

TT I said for months won’t be coming back.   He was never part of the long term plans.  We simply don’t have the room for him.

I agree he was an obvious rental, but very expensive and lots of players look good with Pettersson and Miller

On 11/9/2020 at 2:02 PM, IBatch said:

I think some folks don’t spend enough time looking around at what other teams are doing.  Detroit started their rebuild about right when we did when they picked Larkin.  Holland, widely considered the cream of the cream for two decades, one of the best GMs all-time, couldn’t rebuild Detroit and now they are trying to wrap things up with Yzerman.    Have some decent starter guys thanks to Holland, but are a long way out yet.   That’s what happens when a team has nothing in the coffers.   Wonder how many more years they ha e left before they see playoffs again?  I’d guess at least three.   Detroit fans will be waiting close to a decade.   Much like CAR fans did.   Took them two rebuilds to make it and already sent some other previous re-build’s guys packing

Detroit is a tough comparison, 20 years near the top, trading away over half their first round picks to stay there and then hanging on to players too long, players with bad contracts that could not be moved except if they dealt away top picks, see Datsyuk but they also had a few successful seasons in there. As far as a decade, well the Canucks are pretty close too, this last year was so abnormal it should be counted as a bonus experience season for the coach and younger players. It could be another 2 before they show up there again, there are some really good teams in their division.

Carolina and Colorado both had two rebuilds, I think that is what will happen here too.

On 11/9/2020 at 2:02 PM, IBatch said:

What about ARI?  OEL, their captain and key player from their previous rebuild (they are now on two cores as well) was willing to jump ship

Who owns Arizona now? They have more owners than GM's. It is no wonder they are all over the place, I think the NHL still owns them. There is a lack of confidence from the top down.

On 11/9/2020 at 2:02 PM, IBatch said:

TO?  Cap hell.

 

There’s a reason JB received three first place votes and around 10 out of 30 in total (can’t vote for yourself)....and was 6th overall last season.    And bet he’d have got quite a few more if the voting happened after the playoffs were done not before.

Well one pick came from Tampa that's for sure another from LA the third could be anyone that was impressed with Pettersson or Hughes.

On 11/9/2020 at 2:02 PM, IBatch said:

He’s an above average GM, and for sure he’d find another job without much waiting.    MG on the other hand, is still unemployed.    JB has shown that he can take a gigantic pile of dung and work through it what I’d consider almost record time.   Said back then and will say it again, never felt we had a chance to do much of anything with the core after the Sedins, and that it would likely take two cores to get back into contention.  It still might yet, but after this years playoffs I’m convinced we are for sure on the right path, and that we are very lucky to have both TG and JB.  
Some gratitude goes a long way, get your not a fan - but don’t forget to state some facts or at least acknowledge some of the good things he’s gone too

Superior, well that is truly in the eyes of the beholder. Being good isn't about one or two decent deals over 6 seasons, everyone still remembers Milbury and Yashkin, Benning has Eriksson so far.

Benning was paying Gillis 2+ mil a year up to last year not to be a GM. Gillis did get that award you said proved how good JB was in finishing 6th.

You know that Montreal and Chicago both made the show this year and both were setting themselves up for a really good draft because they had a plan, if Benning really did have a plan for the future in 2 or 3 years and not the immediate, he should have traded Markstrom, Tanev, Stecher and Pearson for picks in this year's super draft. After the TDL the team did little anyway only winning 3 games after but he would have had lots of cap space, more picks in a draft so deep you are saying how good a third round pick is and be in a position to make more trades. Instead he spent future capitol to luckily make the playoffs.

I agree about hanging on to the Sedins, or at least the results, again other teams have in the past hung on too long and suffered, there are lots of them out there with the obvious lengthy delays in getting a rebuild completed. They should have tried to trade the Sedins at the TDL and then re-sign them for the following year but I guess the thought was if they drafted a defenseman, they could have 2 or 3 years of selling his progress, unfortunately OJ is a bust at that draft position.

I am a fan, just not naive, some things happen that are just so obvious like a double take on rebuilding, 3 years of no rebuilding, so what were they doing? and then suddenly a rewrite of history, they were rebuilding all along without being obvious, they had no confidence this market would accept a rebuild. Torts is fired, he says the core is stagnant and needs to be replaced, wow, that got the flames started, Linden and Benning say 3 years later, ya, we knew the core was old and needing replacement and poof, they are geniuses. Top that off with an attitude that essentially stated, we didn't care about the fans or winning, because it would not have been fair to the Sedins. Like paying them 14 mil a year wasn't enough gratitude?

It points so much to the NHL being a entertainment business, even they way they sell games now, an individual night of entertainment. Used to be the standings were a constant lead item on media, now they are hardly ever mentioned.

On 11/9/2020 at 2:02 PM, IBatch said:

Historically every GM we’ve ever had has made some big mistakes.  Quin, still my favourite, three Hat Pat (if you want to talk about a control freak ha ha - doesn’t get any better then that), let Bure go.   And under his leadership (although it was Orca that did this), blundered on a deal to bring Gretzky in.  Traded Ronning (a fan favourite, and a huge blunder) to make space ... and it laid the path to bring in Messier which was the equivalent of throwing a hand grenade into the dressing room.   Not to mention his draft record.  Stajanov and Antoski back to back wasn’t a good look.

Quinn? Stajanov and Antoski? Let's not forget  Odjick, Slegr, Nedved, Bure, Linden, Cullimore, Aucoin, Peca all within a 3 year period and only two top ten picks, All played over 600 games and there were others as well. Ohlund, Walker, most of these players did not need 2+ years in the minors like Benning insists they have, most stepped right in because they were well vetted. Yes we all know the Gretzky thing and that Quinn had got the deal done but there was interference from the absentee owner. Cliff was not traded, Pat was on vacation in Hawaii and left that up to George McPhee to re-sign him but Cliff never got an offer before the deadline and he signed with Phoenix, Cliff was in the Okanagon at the time. Quinn's big mistake was in not taking over the coaching soon enough. Wasn't it great to have an absentee owner that was not a hockey fan.

On 11/9/2020 at 2:02 PM, IBatch said:

Already demonstrated that only Milford has an on par or better draft record for us.    JBs at least our second best drafter all-time.   But keep up the good fight.   Personally I believe it’s what JB does over the next two years that will define his legacy.   EP and QHs contract, who else comes in and makes an impact (two players a year is excellent progress)...

Okay lets understand that no GM in Canuck history has had as many 1rst round picks or top ten picks either. That alone should make him the best ever drafting, but it doesn't, he has less bang per draft position than any Van GM. All those high picks work against him here, on average he should have 7 first round picks playing this coming year with the top ten picks all pushing at being the top players on the team. Use hindsight or whatever, but then go to the scouting reports, just BPA each time is a superior players almost. Virtanen should not have been a #6, two reasons, he had shoulder surgery and they are not 100% successes and two he was ranked at ten on most reports, McCann was a good pick, BPA on most back then, Boeser was ranked at #26 and that is where he was drafted, OJ was a bad pick not only not in the top ten on most lists but he had been overtaken by Sergachev by the draft, his notoriety came from the WJC where he was on a team with JP, PL and SH and there have been no other players make a game in the NHL, how Pettersson got to #5 is a wonder, he was the #1 ranked Euro but still BPA, ditto for Hughes, hopefully under the duress this team will be in with cap issues some of these younger players get a shot sooner than later, they may need to get them into the team soon. Tryamkin could end up being the best late pick or one of two.

On 11/9/2020 at 2:02 PM, IBatch said:

On the drafting.   There is a method to balance the playing field based on ADP - or average draft position.    THN has ten pro scouts rank all drafted 21 and unders.   Then takes a four year average of where each team drafted.    The only flaw in this is they don’t take into account what team has more picks then others, but it does give you a lot of insight into how well each club drafts compared to each other.    Each team ends up with an overall ranking of who has the best group of 21 and unders...since JB ours has gone from 30th, to 23, to 13 - that was the year Burrows was traded - also the year I decided to give JB some slack.   Then we made the top ten and the last two years we’ve been in the 2-3 year range even with players like BB aging out.    
 

It’s a very good prediction tool as well - as in who’s going to have the best teams five years down the road.  Very often the 1-3 teams end up becoming contenders.  WNP would have been without their crazy losses - and even with all of them still are pretty good (they were number one a few years in a row awhile back).

 

  Back to the ADP.   Before we drafted Podz, our average draft position was 7th overall over a four year period.   At the time we had the 3rd best group so 7-3 equals four.  We got a plus four.   TB ADP was 25, and they had the 9th best group so got a plus 14 to lead the league.   Factually they have been the best drafters since JB arrived.  Especially because they haven’t had all their picks over that timeframe.  
EDM was dead last with a -21, because they simply can’t buy a player past the first round.   Overall our ranking was 9th based on this formula.  A ton of teams were plus one or two, or minus one to five.    It’s not perfect because again it doesn’t take into consideration extra or less picks, but given for the most part we’ve had all our picks over that period at least for us it gives a good indication that JBs at least an above average drafter- and more importantly so - he’s an above average drafter when we needed it the most.   I was hoping we’d get Podz - predicted to go 3rd - and ranked 3rd by virtually everyone - and somehow we managed three home runs in a row.  

 

 I’ve never seen anyone draft as well as him, given I didn’t have access to all the information and was too young back in Milfords day.   But I can see it now - and it should at least be acknowledged to any JB bashers.   A deep dive for sure shows he’s done an incredible job at it.

It is odd that with FA it was supposed to speed up rebuilds instead it seems that rebuilds are taking 4 years longer now.

They say that the way the draft is held will be changed to actually help bottom teams rather than enhance top teams.

The stupid way it is done now encourages more teams to tank just to get better chances at the top picks and judging by draft results it has worked that way, at least three times a middle of the road team has got a superior pick proving that tanking works.

Another result of more teams tanking is the lower end teams start winning more and make selling tickets for the next year easier, "Look at the improvement" marketing.

 

Didn't Milford trade Neely or was that Neele? One of the worst deals of all time.

 

Some stats you didn't attribute to JB are the wins vs losses, money spent vs results, fan attendance, waiting lists, number of coaches hired and fired in 5 years so on and so forth, income from apparel and other team items.

 

BTW, kudo's for a good read too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Lazurus

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On 11/10/2020 at 1:46 AM, IBatch said:

Timing contracts for a rebuild is for sure an art.  JBs one year off on his predictions, and that’s actually a good thing.   Sure he’s not unhappy with the progress the teams made.   And even then he went all in the last 12 months to make sure the new core had all the help and depth they could possibly have under the cap to make some noise - which of course they did.   One more crack at it next season....then fun truly begins as the core approaches it’s prime. 

Why is it so hard to add the numbers up?

There was no way he could re-sign this group even if they didn't get a raise.

And they all have guaranteed contracts.

They were over the cap since the TDL, only burying SB and having Ferland, Tanev, Leivo, Roussel and others injured allowed the extra signings but they were gong to come back and haunt them. It was almost like Benning expected not to be around to deal with the mess.

Green has already stated he thinks it will another 4 to 6 years to be a real contender, that would make this a 12 year rebuild. It has gone from an effort to re-tool to being the 3rd year into a rebuild.

Staggering the contracts to fit Hughes and Pettersson, what a laugh. Benning was so good he could look 3 years into the future and know he would have Pettersson and Hughes or even two players needing that much money. That all those deals end at the same time is merely the players would be too old by then, they were all retirement contracts

And don't dismiss what happened in Edmonton yet, this team is still in the woods with no more than they had. Remember they had really good young players too Smyth, Hemsky, Gagner, Cogliano, Eberle, Hall, RNH and they signed many older vets with proven leadership track records.

 

I agree it will be fun when the core reach their prime but IMO they need more core pieces yet, guys like Miller will be near the end of their most productive years. I do find it scary though that the future cap hits could look like, 10 mil each for Pettersson and Hughes, that is what is being talked about and 8 mil each for Miller, Boeser and Horvat because that is what Boeser's contract will require in 2 years and I don't see Horvat or Miller deserving less with Demko in the 5 to 6 range. Hopefully EP and QH come in around 7 and Boeser's contract gets moved before all the players want similar money. It was a good deal at the time but now with the flat cap it is another albatross. Boeser should get another really good replacement player and top pick.

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27 minutes ago, Lazurus said:

Why is it so hard to add the numbers up?

There was no way he could re-sign this group even if they didn't get a raise.

And they all have guaranteed contracts.

They were over the cap since the TDL, only burying SB and having Ferland, Tanev, Leivo, Roussel and others injured allowed the extra signings but they were gong to come back and haunt them. It was almost like Benning expected not to be around to deal with the mess.

Green has already stated he thinks it will another 4 to 6 years to be a real contender, that would make this a 12 year rebuild. It has gone from an effort to re-tool to being the 3rd year into a rebuild.

Staggering the contracts to fit Hughes and Pettersson, what a laugh. Benning was so good he could look 3 years into the future and know he would have Pettersson and Hughes or even two players needing that much money. That all those deals end at the same time is merely the players would be too old by then, they were all retirement contracts

And don't dismiss what happened in Edmonton yet, this team is still in the woods with no more than they had. Remember they had really good young players too Smyth, Hemsky, Gagner, Cogliano, Eberle, Hall, RNH and they signed many older vets with proven leadership track records.

 

I agree it will be fun when the core reach their prime but IMO they need more core pieces yet, guys like Miller will be near the end of their most productive years. I do find it scary though that the future cap hits could look like, 10 mil each for Pettersson and Hughes, that is what is being talked about and 8 mil each for Miller, Boeser and Horvat because that is what Boeser's contract will require in 2 years and I don't see Horvat or Miller deserving less with Demko in the 5 to 6 range. Hopefully EP and QH come in around 7 and Boeser's contract gets moved before all the players want similar money. It was a good deal at the time but now with the flat cap it is another albatross. Boeser should get another really good replacement player and top pick.

Lazarus maybe your overthinking this a little too much.   We won’t know what the next contracts will look like.  Yes for sure we aren’t done yet, hopefully one or two more guys can come in and make an impact upfront - and two of our D’s as well.   On TG - quote please or it isn’t true.   And context as well.  
 

If what your saying is the final outcome with this team we’d be par for the course - about every 12 years or so, which BTW, I’ve stated a dozen or so times, what was my original expectation with this team given we were almost starting with scratch.   Given their are 31 teams, soon to be 32 - that suggests a cup three times a century on average.   We haven’t done it yet  but did get awfully close, and IF we can do it again over a 12 year period then so be it - I can live with that.  EP and QHs around 27, that’s when Naslund went on his three year stint, and close to when the Sedins peaked too (they were older).  
 

Some pragmatism and realism would go a long way.  Instead of constant whining about this and that.   In a couple years all the money will free up and we can properly pursue a cup.   What’s so wrong with that?  Kids will still be kids.   Gretzky didn’t win for five years too you know.   

Edited by IBatch
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27 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Lazarus maybe your overthinking this a little too much.   We won’t know what the next contracts will look like.  Yes for sure we aren’t done yet, hopefully one or two more guys can come in and make an impact upfront - and two of our D’s as well.   On TG - quote please or it isn’t true.   And context as well.  
 

If what your saying is the final outcome with this team we’d be par for the course - about every 12 years or so, which BTW, I’ve stated a dozen or so times, what was my original expectation with this team given we were almost starting with scratch.   Given their are 31 teams, soon to be 32 - that suggests a cup three times a century on average.   We haven’t done it yet  but did get awfully close, and IF we can do it again over a 12 year period then so be it - I can live with that.  EP and QHs around 27, that’s when Naslund went on his three year stint, and close to when the Sedins peaked too (they were older).  
 

Some pragmatism and realism would go a long way.  Instead of constant whining about this and that.   In a couple years all the money will free up and we can properly pursue a cup.   What’s so wrong with that?  Kids will still be kids.   Gretzky didn’t win for five years too you know.   

We do know that Boeser's next deal starts at 105% of his last year salary.

 

Okay I probably took the statement out of context, that is on me; It sounded different in an interview

 

The season hasn’t even started (but) when the cards get on the table, I know our group will be ready to go. I don’t worry about what the outside world says about our group. I’ve got a strong belief about where we’re going in Vancouver and it’s going to be an exciting time for the next four-to-six years.

Is that the window?

 

Yes I noticed the 12 itch thing before and finals another 12 and finals, 15 years, cup final

What is disappointing is how most Canadian teams are one shot wonders the last 30 years.

 

Expectations of 12 plus rebuilds were kind of destroyed with Vegas. Especially when you consider they didn't get the best players from those teams, just not the worst but they did use cap space and draft picks very well. Instant depth at the right age.

 

You know you watch or participate long enough and the word patience starts to become an insult.

 

Junior teams have much fewer staff.

They have to do everything a NHL does, travel, hotels, meals and scouting.

They have to scout children for the most part and a lot more of them than a NHL team.

They have to be much more accurate in their evaluations.

They don't have the luxury of taking even 5 years to build winners. Often a turnover can be 3 years.

The WJC and other national tournaments also have to get it right within a matter of weeks, not years.

 

NFL see's management turn overs quickly if the team loses more than it wins, not much of a leash.

NBA has become a strange animal, the players make the teams now.

Baseball still fire for failure and again not much of a leash, maybe 2 years

 

But in Vancouver we embrace a GM that really hasn't performed very well.

 

The previous regime can only be blamed for so long in light of Vegas and now Seattle, NYR, Ottawa

 

Covid, who has another 12 years to wait?

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The previous regime can only be blamed for so long in light of Vegas and now Seattle, NYR, Ottawa

Not only that but if you recall the top team in the last season was Boston, they also happen to be the team that beat us in 2011 SC. They have made numerous chnages including Bennings previous boss and players/coaches. If my memory serves me right, covid shut down helped Vcr a lot. We were on a prolonger loosing streak when covid ended the season with Markstrom injured, ie we sneaked into the play-offs but did do well when we got there.

Let's not get too carried away

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15 hours ago, Lazurus said:

We do know that Boeser's next deal starts at 105% of his last year salary.

 

Okay I probably took the statement out of context, that is on me; It sounded different in an interview

 

The season hasn’t even started (but) when the cards get on the table, I know our group will be ready to go. I don’t worry about what the outside world says about our group. I’ve got a strong belief about where we’re going in Vancouver and it’s going to be an exciting time for the next four-to-six years.

Is that the window?

 

Yes I noticed the 12 itch thing before and finals another 12 and finals, 15 years, cup final

What is disappointing is how most Canadian teams are one shot wonders the last 30 years.

 

Expectations of 12 plus rebuilds were kind of destroyed with Vegas. Especially when you consider they didn't get the best players from those teams, just not the worst but they did use cap space and draft picks very well. Instant depth at the right age.

 

You know you watch or participate long enough and the word patience starts to become an insult.

 

Junior teams have much fewer staff.

They have to do everything a NHL does, travel, hotels, meals and scouting.

They have to scout children for the most part and a lot more of them than a NHL team.

They have to be much more accurate in their evaluations.

They don't have the luxury of taking even 5 years to build winners. Often a turnover can be 3 years.

The WJC and other national tournaments also have to get it right within a matter of weeks, not years.

 

NFL see's management turn overs quickly if the team loses more than it wins, not much of a leash.

NBA has become a strange animal, the players make the teams now.

Baseball still fire for failure and again not much of a leash, maybe 2 years

 

But in Vancouver we embrace a GM that really hasn't performed very well.

 

The previous regime can only be blamed for so long in light of Vegas and now Seattle, NYR, Ottawa

 

Covid, who has another 12 years to wait?

That quote does not say what you said in your original thread at all - you said something like “even TG doesn’t think we will be good for another 4-6 years”.  It says, what it says.  That things will be exciting the next 4-6 years.   I’m sure he’s right too.   First crack at it we won more games then all but three runs in 50 years.   Missed only four playoffs.   That speaks to a GM who has a plan and is executing it.   Miller and Schmidt ... he’s the only GM who’s done that in quite some time.   Hard to plug holes like that, yet he managed....

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19 hours ago, Lazurus said:

We do know that Boeser's next deal starts at 105% of his last year salary.

Nope.

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