[Signing] Canucks re-sign Jake Virtanen

[ilduce39]

13 minutes ago, khay said:

Good post. Lots of good points.

 

I admit that I was on the short sighted boat. I felt the team was close, just one game away from WCF. Although we lost some key players and we may take a step back next season as a result, the moves he made are clearly good for the future and they open up the possibility of a long window. It still depends on re-signing EP and QH at reasonable cap hits. If they get spoiled and ask for 10+ mil like Toronto's players... it won't work (I doubt they would do what Matthews, Marner, and Nylander did though). 

 

And maybe I'm wrong, maybe we won't take a step back next season. EP is getting better and better. I assume QH will be better. Demko will be better. Holtby is a proven winner. Boeser's two way game is getting stronger. Bo's offensive game may take even further steps forward. Schmidt will make it easier to transition the puck out of our end. JV showed signs of putting things together during some stretches of the season, he may finally become a  consistent 20-30 goal scorer. Prospects like OJ, Hoglander, Podkolzin could all be ready to make the team. Tryamkin may finally come over, which adds a player that can hit and pin the opposition players to break cycles in our own end as well as clear the crease.

 

I would still like a RD that can kill penalties and eat up some tough minutes. But that seems impossible now unless we clear some cap.

It’s an interesting thought experiment.  Would you be willing to burn maybe a 1st plus Hoglander to clear out Eriksson and Roussel.  Buy out Sutter and *poof* there’s 10+ mil in room. 
 

With that we could probably have brought back Toffoli and maybe Tanev or took a run at Hamonic or Barrie and maybe even Granlund.  
 

IMO the price would be a big gap in our prospect pool with no 1sts two years in a row... plus losing a top organizational prospect.  Then we’re signing a bunch of older guys who all have some warts.  Less roster flexibility as we re-sign Petey and Hughes.  A lot more locked in. More exposed at expansion. 
 

I dunno.. it sure would be nice to have even just Tanev and Toffoli back for next year.. but the price + commitment is a lot.  
 

FWIW I think we’re still a strong bubble team next year... so I’m fine taking a lateral step to really jump forward as contracts expire naturally the next 2 offseasons while keeping our prospect pool strong.  

[Jack in the box]

Don't know if posted yet or if valid a new topic, so I will just leave it here:

 

 

[Gollumpus]

3 hours ago, BPA said:

It's a nice problem to have if JV can get 20+ goals.  Even better if he gets 30+.  Then we'd have 2 solid RWs.

It would be nice if Virtanen got 20 - 30 goals, and also developed the hockey smarts that some other folks here keep saying he lacks... despite him getting 18 goals in a short season, and playing between the 2nd, mostly 3rd, but also on the 4th lines. If he grew the hockey smarts that he is supposed to have (according to some), and only get 20 goals next season, then I'd say that there was a problem with his development, because he's already at that marker without them.......

 

Quick, someone get the Corsi to prove he's useless!

 

                                                    regards,  G.

[-Vintage Canuck-]

 

[DeNiro]

8 minutes ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:

 

The speculation has been for awhile that the Aquilinis have a no buyout policy.

 

I doubt that was even an option for him.

[Hogs & Podz]

10 minutes ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:

 

Looks like Ferland being put on LTIR is probably going to happen now.  Probably send Baertschi down again.  Maybe LE as well?  How much cap would that leave us?

Edited October 25, 2020 by Hogs & Podz

[86Viking]

3 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

The speculation has been for awhile that the Aquilinis have a no buyout policy.

 

I doubt that was even an option for him.

We just bought Spooner out last summer

[86Viking]

4 minutes ago, Hogs & Podz said:

Looks like Ferland being put on LTIR is probably going to happen now.  Probably send Baertschi down again.  Maybe LE as well?  How much cap would that leave us?

Send LE, don't even let him attend camp. I would like to see Sven spend the first 20 games in the NHL, if  he earns a roster spot of course. Think he could provide some decent offense for us. He is a playmaker and we are lacking those on the team

[billabong]

I totally agree with no buy outs

 

we can’t have anymore dead money and especially not next year 

 

They totally expect ferland to start on LTIR and at this point you can’t expect much else

 

BUT boy it just reminds what a damn shame that signing has been because he was one of the more anticipated signings cause we all knew what he is capable of and he is exactly what they needed against Vegas 

[DeNiro]

7 minutes ago, Canuckster86 said:

We just bought Spooner out last summer

Minor buyout to dump Gagner.

 

Paying a useful player like Sutter over 2 million to not play the last year of his contract doesn’t really make economic sense.

The upgrade we would be able to get by buying him out would be  negligible.

 

 

[Hogs & Podz]

6 minutes ago, billabong said:

I totally agree with no buy outs

 

we can’t have anymore dead money and especially not next year 

 

They totally expect ferland to start on LTIR and at this point you can’t expect much else

 

BUT boy it just reminds what a damn shame that signing has been because he was one of the more anticipated signings cause we all knew what he is capable of and he is exactly what they needed against Vegas 

+1

Ferland was a risk from the start.... I'm glad JB took a chance on him but really bummed it didn't work out.  I just hope he gets his health back.

[Crabcakes]

18 hours ago, ilduce39 said:

The Toffoli situation is a super interesting mini case study to me into where JB’s head is at for this team. 
 

-not willing to sign a guy who would help the team win NOW (but foot speed might hurt the group in 3-4 years)

 

-not afraid to walk away from sunk cost

 

-prioritizing a long term high level d over forwards

 

-not willing to burn assets to dump contracts

 

...

 

Looks like JB is angling to set the table for an extended run in two years.  Doesn’t want to commit to guys who will be 30+ in that window, Looking to hang on to high level prospects / picks to keep the cupboard full for that critical time. 
 

(Schmitt still makes sense, replacing a long term Tanev deal and slots in as an Edler replacement by that time.) 

 

I do think Toffoli gets re-upped here if the cap situation looked cleaner.. but it’s interesting to see JB choosing to let the contracts fade out on their own instead of shipping them out with high level picks/prospects and resigning Toffoli.  
 

At least that’s how it looks like right now. 

 

FWIW I like it... Pettersson/Hughes is a duo as good (or better) than we’ve ever seen before.  We’re going to need cap space and cheap, good ELC’s to really maintain a sustained push once they sign their big deals.  Panicking to try and maximize their ELC deals feels a bit short sighted. They aren’t even matured into their primes yet... I like the calm approach so far to preparing for that time.

Good post.

 

On Toffoli, I posted this thought once before.  I think that Benning badly wanted to get this team into the playoffs this year.  Benning has said as much in interviews, referring to missing the playoffs as a giant black hole.  This was the rationale behind signing Ferland, Myers, Pearson, Benn last year.  Ferland, I thought was overkill and then he made it clear that Baertschi wasn't in his plans.  And when Ferland was out, he traded for Toffoli to assure that they got into the playoffs knowing full well that he may not be able to keep him.  So making the playoffs was worth a 2nd, 4th and Madden to Benning.

 

So they're in a real pickle cap wise which has been made even worse now that we have a flat cap.  I think that since the playoffs, Benning had sat down with his staff and reviewed the team, knowing the reality of the cap and made decisions to let all of the players that he hasn't signed go:  Tanev, Toffoli, Leivo, Stecher, Fantenberg.  Markstrom, he wanted to keep but he needed a good contract and if he couldn't get it, there would be plenty of decent options.  And like you said, upgrading the D was the big goal this off season which was why he went so hard on OEL.  Schmidt was a helluva consolation prize. 

 

The Schmidt trade was lucky but you have to be good to be lucky.  He was certainly looking for top 4 D and we know that Benning talks to all of the other GM's regularly.  When he realized that Pietrangelo was close to signing in Vegas (it was reported that AP had been in Vegas looking at the facility and neighbourhoods), he had to know that Vegas was going to have to shed cap and if Benning made a call to McCrimmon to suggest that he could help him out of his dilemma.  It's a matter of reading the tea leaves.  If you shake a few trees, there's no telling what might fall out.

[Crabcakes]

19 hours ago, mll said:

They have not been able to create cap space.  Benning at the TDL was talking of recouping draft picks before the draft including a 2nd - he has not been able to move anyone out.  The Canucks are right at the cap now just by replacing Markstrom/Tanev and signing Virtanen/Gaudette.  It's well possible that they won't be able to make any cap clearing trades.  Toffoli's agent said he had some 8-10 teams interested in him - he couldn't just hope that Vancouver would find cap space.

 

This is another factor why so many players got sacrificed this off season (see above).  Benning had to be trying and was able to move nothing.

[RWMc1]

Sutter is better than people give him credit for and would really help Gaudette learn to play better defensively.

 

Looks like the options are trade or waivers. The good thing about waivers is that we don't have to make that decision until right before the season starts. It would actually be better for us if Ferland could play.

 

Some teams aren't going with a 23 man roster and will call up and down players; who will be on a black aces squad similar to the bubble? speculation

 

We could probably get away with waiving certain players as I don't see anyone picking up Loui or Sven. We're allowed to exceed the cap by 10% so we could even pick up a UFA or two for a low cost and let them battle it out in camp with our current roster players.

 

 

[Ronning4center]

On 10/22/2020 at 11:45 AM, oldnews said:

yeah - not the best option for clearing cap, clearly,

 

I also find that idea that Virtanen doesn't fit anywhere to be a case of trying too hard to sandbag the player.

Green utilized him in lots of situations last year - he's actually fairly versatile for a young forward.

He has played a whole lot on Sutter's line - but apparently isn't good enough defensively to play on Horvat's wing (and Horvat ironically, does not simply play a matchup role - when the team is healthy, partcularly the bottom six centers, Horvat's line plays a dual role and sees more secondary scoring deployment than when the lineup is depleted (as it typically has been).

Anyhow - I've posted Virtanen's actual outcomes enought times on these boards that I find it a waste of time to repeat the exercise....

And when it comes to 5 on 5 production - his best scoring to relative ice time actually came while playing on the 3rd line with ....

The 16.4% of his 5 on 5 ice time with Horvat and Pearson resulted in 14.8% of his production

The 14.7% 5on5 ice time with EP and Miller = 14.8% of his production.

21.2% of 5on5 with Roussel and Gaudette = 25.9% of his production...

27 even strength points in 12 minutes of 5on5 ice time...is pretty solid, particularly when it's spread accross the board relatively evenly in spite of who he was playing with.

You trade any player if the return improves your team - if Virtanen were valued highly by a team looking to acquire him, you have to consider it - but if you're looking simply for ways to shed cap, he aint anywhere near the top of that list....

This^^   I hope this puts the discussion to bed once and for all.  18 goals for 2.55   =  good.   

[ilduce39]

1 hour ago, Crabcakes said:

Good post.

 

On Toffoli, I posted this thought once before.  I think that Benning badly wanted to get this team into the playoffs this year.  Benning has said as much in interviews, referring to missing the playoffs as a giant black hole.  This was the rationale behind signing Ferland, Myers, Pearson, Benn last year.  Ferland, I thought was overkill and then he made it clear that Baertschi wasn't in his plans.  And when Ferland was out, he traded for Toffoli to assure that they got into the playoffs knowing full well that he may not be able to keep him.  So making the playoffs was worth a 2nd, 4th and Madden to Benning.

 

So they're in a real pickle cap wise which has been made even worse now that we have a flat cap.  I think that since the playoffs, Benning had sat down with his staff and reviewed the team, knowing the reality of the cap and made decisions to let all of the players that he hasn't signed go:  Tanev, Toffoli, Leivo, Stecher, Fantenberg.  Markstrom, he wanted to keep but he needed a good contract and if he couldn't get it, there would be plenty of decent options.  And like you said, upgrading the D was the big goal this off season which was why he went so hard on OEL.  Schmidt was a helluva consolation prize. 

 

The Schmidt trade was lucky but you have to be good to be lucky.  He was certainly looking for top 4 D and we know that Benning talks to all of the other GM's regularly.  When he realized that Pietrangelo was close to signing in Vegas (it was reported that AP had been in Vegas looking at the facility and neighbourhoods), he had to know that Vegas was going to have to shed cap and if Benning made a call to McCrimmon to suggest that he could help him out of his dilemma.  It's a matter of reading the tea leaves.  If you shake a few trees, there's no telling what might fall out.

Yeah I agree across the board.  
 

Definitely looks like JB having made the playoffs, seeing what everyone can do and being up against the cap, is ready to start picking and choosing who he wants to build a playoff contender with. 
 

OEL / Schmidt tells us a bit as well.  One, JB wasn’t going to overpay or pay a pre-pandemic price for OEL... not afraid to walk away (avoiding sunk cost fallacy again) and two, he’s able to find, leverage and close a good bargain (inside his own conference) even with a cap squeeze.  

[mll]

14 hours ago, MattJVD said:

The QO is based on salary, not total paid. His last year is $3M salary and $400k signing bonus, so his QO is an even $3M

The breakdown is new information.  

The earlier posts discussing about his QO were going off a final base at 3.4M and not 3M.  The QO would have then be capped at 3.06M as it was lower than his assumed base of 3.4M.  

[Junkyard Dog]

7 hours ago, Hogs & Podz said:

Looks like Ferland being put on LTIR is probably going to happen now.  Probably send Baertschi down again.  Maybe LE as well?  How much cap would that leave us?

Ferland intends to try to play. His situation is something to keep tabs on during the off-season. 

[WeneedLumme]

11 hours ago, Ronning4center said:

This^^   I hope this puts the discussion to bed once and for all.  18 goals for 2.55   =  good.   

Good luck with that. Certain posters are here to hate. Jake could blossom into a 40 goal Selke winner and while some would back pedal and claim that they always really liked him, others would never back down from their hate for him.

[EdgarM]

3 hours ago, WeneedLumme said:

Good luck with that. Certain posters are here to hate. Jake could blossom into a 40 goal Selke winner and while some would back pedal and claim that they always really liked him, others would never back down from their hate for him.

I agree, like who really cares if the "Kid" likes to party, so did E. Kane and P. Kane before they settled down. Kassian is another. 

I think posters get too caught up on one or two players and they lose sight of the big picture. 

We have been a team ,in past years, comprised of one dimensional players or players with one or two great aspects to the their game but they lack in others. So they can pass through traffic , like they have eyes in the back of their head, but their foot speed is atrocious or they can't hit or check. Or they are smallish players who can play great when there is room to skate, like in the regular season, but their game is nulified when the checking gets tighter ,like in the playoffs. Vegas has been successful for a reason.

Jake carries a multitude of tools needed to succeed in the NHL and to play in the top lines. Speed, size, offense and he is still young. We need players to "Compliment" our top lines and Jake has the attributes which can do that.

No, he is not a finished product, but he is trending upwards and I think he needs to be afforded "growing room" just as much as any of our young core does at the moment. 

It took players such as Bertuzzi or JT Miller 5-7 NHL seasons to start showing what they really can do so I am optimistic that Jake still has the ability to be a core piece to this team moving forward.