[Signing] Canucks re-sign Jake Virtanen

[Provost]

12 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

Its funny you say that as 17-18 he had a total of TOI 899 and last year he had TOI 902.9. 

His time in the top 6 was minimal which the most he got was a few games when Boeser was struggling. Sometimes he got a peroid or so with them but usually it was a few shifts at the end of a game. Oddly enough, I remember him scoring more like a PPG pace and I remember a 4 game point streak that he had in that short time frame. 

You should go look at the stats because your memory is alluding you.

Are you saying that Jake didn't get time in the top 6 last season?  Here is the breakdown of his most common linemates for 5 on 5.  He had plenty of time on the ice with our top two lines.

 

20.01%	EV	GAUDETTE,ADAM - ROUSSEL,ANTOINE - VIRTANEN,JAKE
15.47%	EV	HORVAT,BO - PEARSON,TANNER - VIRTANEN,JAKE
13.86%	EV	MILLER,J.T. - PETTERSSON,ELIAS - VIRTANEN,JAKE
4.06%	EV	BEAGLE,JAY - SCHALLER,TIM - VIRTANEN,JAKE
3.69%	EV	LEIVO,JOSH - SUTTER,BRANDON - VIRTANEN,JAKE
3.66%	PP	GAUDETTE,ADAM - PEARSON,TANNER - ROUSSEL,ANTOINE - VIRTANEN,JAKE
3.24%	EV	MOTTE,TYLER - SUTTER,BRANDON - VIRTANEN,JAKE
3.00%	EV	GAUDETTE,ADAM - LEIVO,JOSH - VIRTANEN,JAKE
2.37%	EV	HORVAT,BO - LEIVO,JOSH - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.58%	EV	FERLAND,MICHEAL - HORVAT,BO - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.53%	EV	BOESER,BROCK - PETTERSSON,ELIAS - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.48%	EV	HORVAT,BO - MILLER,J.T. - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.45%	EV	GAUDETTE,ADAM - MILLER,J.T. - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.40%	EV	ROUSSEL,ANTOINE - SUTTER,BRANDON - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.37%	EV	PEARSON,TANNER - PETTERSSON,ELIAS - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.37%	EV	PEARSON,TANNER - SUTTER,BRANDON - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.27%	EV	HORVAT,BO - ROUSSEL,ANTOINE - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.08%	EV	GAUDETTE,ADAM - PEARSON,TANNER - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.08%	EV	FERLAND,MICHEAL - SUTTER,BRANDON - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.08%	EV	BAERTSCHI,SVEN - HORVAT,BO - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.90%	EV	HORVAT,BO - SCHALLER,TIM - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.90%	EV	ERIKSSON,LOUI - GRAOVAC,TYLER - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.87%	EV	GAUDETTE,ADAM - SCHALLER,TIM - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.71%	PP	GAUDETTE,ADAM - LEIVO,JOSH - PEARSON,TANNER - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.63%	EV	BAERTSCHI,SVEN - GAUDETTE,ADAM - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.63%	EV	LEIVO,JOSH - PETTERSSON,ELIAS - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.58%	EV	BEAGLE,JAY - ROUSSEL,ANTOINE - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.53%	EV	BEAGLE,JAY - MOTTE,TYLER - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.50%	EV	BAERTSCHI,SVEN - SUTTER,BRANDON - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.47%	EV	GAUDETTE,ADAM - MOTTE,TYLER - VIRTANEN,JAKE

[EdgarM]

1 hour ago, Provost said:

Are you saying that Jake didn't get time in the top 6 last season?  Here is the breakdown of his most common linemates for 5 on 5.  He had plenty of time on the ice with our top two lines.

 

20.01%	EV	GAUDETTE,ADAM - ROUSSEL,ANTOINE - VIRTANEN,JAKE
15.47%	EV	HORVAT,BO - PEARSON,TANNER - VIRTANEN,JAKE
13.86%	EV	MILLER,J.T. - PETTERSSON,ELIAS - VIRTANEN,JAKE
4.06%	EV	BEAGLE,JAY - SCHALLER,TIM - VIRTANEN,JAKE
3.69%	EV	LEIVO,JOSH - SUTTER,BRANDON - VIRTANEN,JAKE
3.66%	PP	GAUDETTE,ADAM - PEARSON,TANNER - ROUSSEL,ANTOINE - VIRTANEN,JAKE
3.24%	EV	MOTTE,TYLER - SUTTER,BRANDON - VIRTANEN,JAKE
3.00%	EV	GAUDETTE,ADAM - LEIVO,JOSH - VIRTANEN,JAKE
2.37%	EV	HORVAT,BO - LEIVO,JOSH - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.58%	EV	FERLAND,MICHEAL - HORVAT,BO - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.53%	EV	BOESER,BROCK - PETTERSSON,ELIAS - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.48%	EV	HORVAT,BO - MILLER,J.T. - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.45%	EV	GAUDETTE,ADAM - MILLER,J.T. - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.40%	EV	ROUSSEL,ANTOINE - SUTTER,BRANDON - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.37%	EV	PEARSON,TANNER - PETTERSSON,ELIAS - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.37%	EV	PEARSON,TANNER - SUTTER,BRANDON - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.27%	EV	HORVAT,BO - ROUSSEL,ANTOINE - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.08%	EV	GAUDETTE,ADAM - PEARSON,TANNER - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.08%	EV	FERLAND,MICHEAL - SUTTER,BRANDON - VIRTANEN,JAKE
1.08%	EV	BAERTSCHI,SVEN - HORVAT,BO - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.90%	EV	HORVAT,BO - SCHALLER,TIM - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.90%	EV	ERIKSSON,LOUI - GRAOVAC,TYLER - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.87%	EV	GAUDETTE,ADAM - SCHALLER,TIM - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.71%	PP	GAUDETTE,ADAM - LEIVO,JOSH - PEARSON,TANNER - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.63%	EV	BAERTSCHI,SVEN - GAUDETTE,ADAM - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.63%	EV	LEIVO,JOSH - PETTERSSON,ELIAS - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.58%	EV	BEAGLE,JAY - ROUSSEL,ANTOINE - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.53%	EV	BEAGLE,JAY - MOTTE,TYLER - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.50%	EV	BAERTSCHI,SVEN - SUTTER,BRANDON - VIRTANEN,JAKE
0.47%	EV	GAUDETTE,ADAM - MOTTE,TYLER - VIRTANEN,JAKE

I am saying he wasn't given consistant time in the top 6 as your info obviously backs up. Most of the time it was for a period or two but a lot of times it was a shift or two when Green was attempting to get something going when his regular lines were doing nothing. 

[Provost]

58 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

I am saying he wasn't given consistant time in the top 6 as your info obviously backs up. Most of the time it was for a period or two but a lot of times it was a shift or two when Green was attempting to get something going when his regular lines were doing nothing. 

He was with the top two centres for over 40% of his total playing time, including his 2nd and 3rd most common line combos.  He was with Miller/Petterson and Pearson/Horvat close to the same amount he was with Roussel/Gaudette... his most common linemates.

That wasn’t just a few garbage minutes at the end of games or “minimal time”

 

The data in no way backs up what you are saying...

Edited October 26, 2020 by Provost

[EdgarM]

20 minutes ago, Provost said:

He was with the top two centres for over 40% of his total playing time, including his 2nd and 3rd most common line combos.  He was with Miller/Petterson and Pearson/Horvat close to the same amount he was with Roussel/Gaudette... his most common linemates.

That wasn’t just a few garbage minutes at the end of games or “minimal time”

 

The data in no way backs up what you are saying...

So he played 69 games last year and he roughly played 13 games with Both Petey and Bo(according to your stats) and the rest was with the 3rd and 4th liners which works out to be like 43 games. Those games he played with Petey and Bo were not consistent though as he was moved to play with every line and their dogs. 

I watched every game last year and he was not a consistent insertion into the top 6. Lui Ericsson on the other hand? 

[Provost]

58 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

So he played 69 games last year and he roughly played 13 games with Both Petey and Bo(according to your stats) and the rest was with the 3rd and 4th liners which works out to be like 43 games. Those games he played with Petey and Bo were not consistent though as he was moved to play with every line and their dogs. 

I watched every game last year and he was not a consistent insertion into the top 6. Lui Ericsson on the other hand? 

I think you might have to revisit your math...

 

Over 40% of his ice time was with either Petterson or Horvat.

 

40% of 69 games is 28 games... not 13 games.  He was closing in on half his ice time in the top 6.

 

So he played the equivalent of 28 games with one of the top two centres.  He played the remaining 41 games with one of Gaudette/Sutter/Beagle/Miller as his centre.

 

40% is just not “minimal time” or “just a few shifts at the end of games”.  
 

It isn’t complicated math... they aren’t “my” stats... they are percentages of his actual ice time.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Provost

[EdgarM]

12 minutes ago, Provost said:

I think you might have to revisit your math...

 

Over 40% of his ice time was with either Petterson or Horvat.

 

40% of 69 games is 28 games... not 13 games.  He was closing in on half his ice time in the top 6.

 

So he played the equivalent of 28 games with one of the top two centres.  He played the remaining 41 games with one of Gaudette/Sutter/Beagle/Miller as his centre.

 

40% is just not “minimal time” or “just a few shifts at the end of games”.  
 

It isn’t complicated math... they aren’t “my” stats... they are percentages of his actual ice time.

13 games per Centerman, read my post again. 20% with Bo and 20% with Petey or a total of 13 games per center. 

The rest, 43 games with the 3rd and 4th liners. 

But again, those times in the top 6 were not consistent so please let me know what the longest span he played in the top 6? 

You are telling me it wasn't "spot duty" as I suggested so what games did he play consistently in the top 6?

I am pretty sure he did not play 40% of the time in the top 6 on a regular basis and 30 DIFFERENT LINE COMBINATIONS IN 1 SEASON!!!? There's consistency for you. 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, EdgarM said:

13 games per Centerman, read my post again. 20% with Bo and 20% with Petey or a total of 13 games per center. 

The rest, 43 games with the 3rd and 4th liners. 

But again, those times in the top 6 were not consistent so please let me know what the longest span he played in the top 6? 

You are telling me it wasn't "spot duty" as I suggested so what games did he play consistently in the top 6?

I am pretty sure he did not play 40% of the time in the top 6 on a regular basis and 30 DIFFERENT LINE COMBINATIONS IN 1 SEASON!!!? There's consistency for you. 

Even without this mind numbing stats - the eye test is good enough for me.   Rarely was JV played in the top six with the exception to of a 8 or so game trial where TG put BB on the third line.  Otherwise LE was taking up his spot.    Those line combos take into consideration who’s the first on and last one off the ice.   His minutes tell the story just as well,  second unit PP time (so the final 30 seconds or so with AG/Pearson/Edler or Myers) and then third line 5 x 5 time.   JV at most could be considered a middle six player for us.   He was also used all over the place more then any other forward - a little Swiss army/ Hansen in him. 

[JeremyCuddles]

4 hours ago, EdgarM said:

I am saying he wasn't given consistant time in the top 6 as your info obviously backs up. Most of the time it was for a period or two but a lot of times it was a shift or two when Green was attempting to get something going when his regular lines were doing nothing. 

Provost is a hater. Pretending like 2-3 shifts here and there counts as getting a fair chance in the top 6. Goldy played damn near an entire season piggy backing on Pettersson. Jake is lucky to get more than a handful of shifts before going back into the dog house. 

[Ferlands_Head]

4 hours ago, EdgarM said:

Its funny you say that as 17-18 he had a total of TOI 899 and last year he had TOI 902.9. 

His time in the top 6 was minimal which the most he got was a few games when Boeser was struggling. Sometimes he got a peroid or so with them but usually it was a few shifts at the end of a game. Oddly enough, I remember him scoring more like a PPG pace and I remember a 4 game point streak that he had in that short time frame. 

You should go look at the stats because your memory is alluding you.

How is it funny? 17-18 He played 75 games vs 69 = More minutes in 6 less games. 

 

I did and it appears it is your memory that is alluding you LOL 

 

Here's the stats 

 

Virtanen with Horvat- Pearson 4 pts 17 GP

Virtanen with EP-Miller 4pts 12 GP 

Virtanen with Gauds-Roussel 8pts 20 GP

Virtanen with Sutter-Leivo 3 pts 

Virtanen with Horvat-Leivo 2 pts 

 

PP2 with Gauds-Roussel - 7 PTS

PP2 with Gauds-Pearson 2 pts 

 

Here's his 5 most common line EV strength line combos which account for the majority of his points. As you can see he's most effective with Roussel and Gaudette. He's not gonna suddenly become a PPG player with EP and Miller or Horvat. 

 

[EdgarM]

53 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Even without this mind numbing stats - the eye test is good enough for me.   Rarely was JV played in the top six with the exception to of a 8 or so game trial where TG put BB on the third line.  Otherwise LE was taking up his spot.    Those line combos take into consideration who’s the first on and last one off the ice.   His minutes tell the story just as well,  second unit PP time (so the final 30 seconds or so with AG/Pearson/Edler or Myers) and then third line 5 x 5 time.   JV at most could be considered a middle six player for us.   He was also used all over the place more then any other forward - a little Swiss army/ Hansen in him. 

I agree, if you watch the games you would see when the lines get changed up. I did see way too much of LE for my liking though.

[EdgarM]

49 minutes ago, N7Nucks said:

Provost is a hater. Pretending like 2-3 shifts here and there counts as getting a fair chance in the top 6. Goldy played damn near an entire season piggy backing on Pettersson. Jake is lucky to get more than a handful of shifts before going back into the dog house. 

Yes seen that "Doghouse" effect way too many times too. I thought professional coaches had more creativity then that. 

[EdgarM]

20 minutes ago, Ferlands_Head said:

How is it funny? 17-18 He played 75 games vs 69 = More minutes in 6 less games. 

 

I did and it appears it is your memory that is alluding you LOL 

 

Here's the stats 

 

Virtanen with Horvat- Pearson 4 pts 17 GP

Virtanen with EP-Miller 4pts 12 GP 

Virtanen with Gauds-Roussel 8pts 20 GP

Virtanen with Sutter-Leivo 3 pts 

Virtanen with Horvat-Leivo 2 pts 

 

PP2 with Gauds-Roussel - 7 PTS

PP2 with Gauds-Pearson 2 pts 

 

Here's his 5 most common line EV strength line combos which account for the majority of his points. As you can see he's most effective with Roussel and Gaudette. He's not gonna suddenly become a PPG player with EP and Miller or Horvat. 

 

 Oh my.  Not sure what your stats are trying to prove but Read N7 Nucks and Ibatch's posts above please. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by EdgarM

[Provost]

2 hours ago, N7Nucks said:

Provost is a hater. Pretending like 2-3 shifts here and there counts as getting a fair chance in the top 6. Goldy played damn near an entire season piggy backing on Pettersson. Jake is lucky to get more than a handful of shifts before going back into the dog house. 

Yep... objective reality and simple math is clearly biased against Jake, and I am a sad slave to reality.

 

These aren’t fancy advanced statistics.  These are just counts of his actual ice time.  You are spouting nonsense to say that over 40% of his ice time being in the top 6 is really just 2-3 shifts here and there.  It is a ludicrous position to take since it is simply verifiably not true.

 

2+2 = 4... in Your world of make believe, only haters believe that, since clearly 2+2 = 1
 

40% of his time being in the top 6 is a really good audition, he spent almost as much time on the ice with our top lines as he did with the bottom ones.  The coaching staff never liked what they saw enough to keep him there permanently.  Benning clearly liked him there so much that he spent a high draft pick and prospect to replace him there with Toffoli. 
 

I know it may hurt your ego, but they know more about hockey than you do.  It isn’t just evil coach Green having it out for a player and trying to make us lose just to ensure Virtanen doesn’t get a “fair shake”.

 

Maybe Jake grows up and becomes a legitimate, dependable, and consistent top 6 performer... but he hasn’t been that up to this point, even with plenty of minutes with our most skilled players.

 

PS.  Don’t whine about Goldobin, he wasn’t even on the team  last season and Jake was.  Arguing that the guy that was cut from the roster by the coaches was given preferential treatment over Virtanen makes even less sense than you ignoring math.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Provost

[Ferlands_Head]

5 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

 Oh my.  Not sure what your stats are trying to prove but Read N7 Nucks and Ibatch's posts above please. 

You claimed he was playing 10-12 minutes a game.  

 

You thought he was close to PPG in the top 6 

 

You also told me to look at the stats since my memory is alluding me so here they are. 

 

I read the above posts. Where do you guys get the idea he's only playing a "2-3 shifts here and there" in the top 6? He's played about 30 games with a solid average of 13-14 minutes in the top 6. Yeah it's not 30 games in a row but those are still solid minutes and not "a few shifts here and there". 

 

[TNucks1]

with virtanen not in the city and going to work out with myers every morning and hanging out with him and his family and also skating with other NHL veterans in the NHL in kelowna is good news, im sure he still goes out here and there, but im excited too see how he does this season or whenever it is.

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, Ferlands_Head said:

You claimed he was playing 10-12 minutes a game.  

 

You thought he was close to PPG in the top 6 

 

You also told me to look at the stats since my memory is alluding me so here they are. 

 

I read the above posts. Where do you guys get the idea he's only playing a "2-3 shifts here and there" in the top 6? He's played about 30 games with a solid average of 13-14 minutes in the top 6. Yeah it's not 30 games in a row but those are still solid minutes and not "a few shifts here and there". 

 

His ATOI was 13:05 last season, some on the PP, down from 14:49 the year before .. he was one of our better 5 x 5 PP60 as well which was nice to see.   Aside from BB going down to the third line for a stretch of games, and later on when he was injured before the TT trade,  his time in the top six was spotty.   The stat line or “ math” that Provost is using does paint a picture but it doesn’t factor in that JV is on the ice as are all other players, before and after shifts are fully changed, would love to see what EP, Miller, Horvat and Pearson’s look like too, they’d show a different story with just as many percentage lines, doesn’t mean they were used in the middle or bottom six as we all know that’s not true - they didn’t play 10-20 games in the bottom six.  

 

 13:05 isn’t top six minutes but it’s very good third line ones...Adam Gaudette played 47 seconds less...that shows you about what extra time JV got right there in the top six....Pearson for example played 16:31, Horvat, BB, Miller, EP 18:34 and up...Sutter and Motte has more time then JV who’s 8th for forwards overall but of course special teams affect that (PK)...Speaking of PP time JV was seventh on the team for forwards too, not exactly a fixture, and really it’s almost the same as Sutter who had one minute overall time less then JV..  curiously LE’s minutes are less then JV’s too which muddies the waters a little. 

 

Minutes played or ATOI, shows a lot about a coaches usage.    40% or 30 total games playing in the top six doesn’t line up with the eye test or the “math”... its impossible to differentiate the stats with who he’s on the ice with if he’s the last person off or the first person on.   If anyone wants to spend the time to go back and check every line-up card from the start of the season to the end of the season, I’m sure he wasn’t started in the top six more then 20ish games.   And the fact his ice time actually went down 1:30 minutes from 2018-2019 doesn’t scream extra usage in the top six either.  
 

Also when it came to the playoffs JV had some time too (in the top six), after our five game winning streak ended and needed a different look.    Think TG relies on JV to shake it up, that’s undeniable, but both the coach and the GM weren’t ready to hand the keys to the top six yet with LE getting more cracks at it - if it ain’t broken and all of that.   We for sure should see what he’s made of next season with no TT coming back..also I don’t think anyone here is saying he wasn’t given time in the top six - for sure he was when BB played on the third line for an 8 game or so stretch and before TT arrived when he was injured, but he also played on the fourth line quite a few games too.   Again he’s like a Swiss Army knife to any line that needs a boost - much like Hansen was.   Except he’s already scored more goals in a single shortened season so there is hope yet for him.    This for sure is going to be his opportunity. 
 

Edit:  Finally what’s wrong with the eye test too (did everyone commenting on this actually watch the games?).    How many games did we see JV double shifted on two different lines for example?  In game management definitely happened both in the regular season and the playoffs - sometimes it was JV getting the extra shift - sometimes Horvat or even Miller.   LEs minutes too, sometimes he’s sitting when we are behind and JV gets some shifts, others he’s the empty net warrior late in the third up a goal, but one things for certain, LE started on the second line way more then JV did.  Aside from two stretches most games JV was on the third line. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by IBatch

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, Provost said:

Yep... objective reality and simple math is clearly biased against Jake, and I am a sad slave to reality.

 

These aren’t fancy advanced statistics.  These are just counts of his actual ice time.  You are spouting nonsense to say that over 40% of his ice time being in the top 6 is really just 2-3 shifts here and there.  It is a ludicrous position to take since it is simply verifiably not true.

 

2+2 = 4... in Your world of make believe, only haters believe that, since clearly 2+2 = 1
 

40% of his time being in the top 6 is a really good audition, he spent almost as much time on the ice with our top lines as he did with the bottom ones.  The coaching staff never liked what they saw enough to keep him there permanently.  Benning clearly liked him there so much that he spent a high draft pick and prospect to replace him there with Toffoli. 
 

I know it may hurt your ego, but they know more about hockey than you do.  It isn’t just evil coach Green having it out for a player and trying to make us lose just to ensure Virtanen doesn’t get a “fair shake”.

 

Maybe Jake grows up and becomes a legitimate, dependable, and consistent top 6 performer... but he hasn’t been that up to this point, even with plenty of minutes with our most skilled players.

 

PS.  Don’t whine about Goldobin, he wasn’t even on the team  last season and Jake was.  Arguing that the guy that was cut from the roster by the coaches was given preferential treatment over Virtanen makes even less sense than you ignoring math.

 

 

See my above post.    40% is a decent arithmetic based on the earlier model - but it’s not an accurate representation of his overall usage because there is always a player or two on the ice  to start and end shifts.   I’d go by TG line-up cards to start games.   That would show his intentions anyways.   BB struggled and was demoted for several games —and was injured too so JV moved up until TT came.   Otherwise he was behind LE the rest of the season.   13:05 is not top six.   A 40ish seconds more then AG isn’t top six but does show the difference...Pearson at 16:30 plus and after that BB at 18:34 shows a better range for top six.   Even if JV killed penalties he wouldn’t reach those numbers.   This is where using stats to make a point can be tricky too.   Anyone watching the games can see LE hop over the boards mostly with Pearson and Horvat ... sometimes with Beagle and Motte ... and JV with AG.   One could also point out for a stretch of games JV was playing with Beagle, threads were made on the forum this year griping about it.   Again - nobodies questioning he wasn’t given opportunities because he was,  but it was awfully spotty aside from two stretches, both involving BB.   
 

Edit:  As an aside - maybe considering cutting out the confused faces whenever a good critical thinking post is made that refutes your stance on things.   This is a forum to talk about hockey and we all learn things from each other. If you feel the need to acknowledge with a emoji thingy - maybe instead consider giving  them a cheers for taking their time  to engage with you. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by IBatch

[IBatch]

9 hours ago, EdgarM said:

13 games per Centerman, read my post again. 20% with Bo and 20% with Petey or a total of 13 games per center. 

The rest, 43 games with the 3rd and 4th liners. 

But again, those times in the top 6 were not consistent so please let me know what the longest span he played in the top 6? 

You are telling me it wasn't "spot duty" as I suggested so what games did he play consistently in the top 6?

I am pretty sure he did not play 40% of the time in the top 6 on a regular basis and 30 DIFFERENT LINE COMBINATIONS IN 1 SEASON!!!? There's consistency for you. 

EdgarM, your correct.   13:05 isn’t top six.   There were two relatively short stretches where he played in the top six, one when BB was moved to the third line - I said around 8 games but was being too generous, it was more like 5 (and threads popped up on this forum at the time), and again when BB was injured until TT came, about the same amount of time.   Otherwise it was a few games here and there while LE played with Beagle and he was moved up.   That’s not 30 games.   Suggested maybe around 20 but doubt if anyone got all the game lineups and counted them it would even get that high.   Problem with stats is the lens one takes when evaluating them, and the ones in question don’t factor in the last two guys off the ice or first one on it etc, bet EPs or Miller’s would also make it look like they spent 10–15% of their time in the bottom six but we all know that’s not true.  It’s a team sport and at one point or the other practically every regular gets some time with all four lines. The eye test matters too, and LE for sure played mostly on the second line.   I’m not at all complaining about TG usage - he seems to have JV on a short leash but also values what he adds to the team and how he gives any line a possible boost.   Consistent quality is JVs biggest hurdle, one he himself acknowledged when he signed recently, and one I’m sure JB drove home during his contract talks.    He’s obviously taking it seriously too which is great.   JV could still become a core player for us.   That would really help us.  
 

Edit:  As curiosity want too add THN does a lot of mags that rank players, both current and all-time.   When they do the all-time rankings some of the best in the business, hockey historians are called upon and they have to consider all the stats.  One of the key metrics in this especially when it comes to defenseman but forwards too is looking at actual usage from coach to coach.   If the consistently are used more then anyone else it’s considered very valuable - it’s not just about points.   Really it’s one of the most important stats available.   JV’s right around where he should be for a third line frequent second PP unit guy at just over 13 minutes.  

Edited October 27, 2020 by IBatch

[WeneedLumme]

9 minutes ago, mll said:

3M.   

 

His last year is 3M base + 400K signing bonus.  The QO is the last base salary but at most 120% of the AAV.  

 

 

Ah, I was thinking it was the greater of final year salary or 120% of AAV.

[Provost]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

 The stat line or “ math” that Provost is using does paint a picture but it doesn’t factor in that JV is on the ice as are all other players, before and after shifts are fully changed, would love to see what EP, Miller, Horvat and Pearson’s look like too, they’d show a different story with just as many percentage lines, doesn’t mean they were used in the middle or bottom six as we all know that’s not true - they didn’t play 10-20 games in the bottom six.  

That is again, verifiably not true.  The few times they only get a partial change or the fact one guy is off the ice faster don’t account for 40% of his ice time as an “error rate”.  First off, that would even out and net out to about nothing.  Second, it is just not true.... verifiably not true.  You are making arguments based on your feelings and not actual truth.

 

Miller spent 1.5% of the time on lines that didn’t have Horvat or Petterson.  Pearson was 5%.  That is the amount of “noise” involved in the data with Green shuffling lines to shake things up.