[Signing] Canucks re-sign Jake Virtanen

[JayDangles]

I feel I have to weigh in. Some of the comments defending Jake are so rediculous to me.. I mean how many excuses will people make to defend a player?

-He hasn't been given consistent ice time in top 6

-Green is too punative.

-Power forwards take longer to develop

- He showed some improvement last year

- His shoulder injury prevents him from being physical

-World Juniors killed his confidence

- He wasn't fat at camp.

 

Man I haven't seen so many excuses used to defend a player production and lack of consistency. How about all the Jake supporters stop making excuses for him, and stop trying to nit pick everyone else's stats... And supply something real.

Show something that shows/proves Jake deserves or has earned top 6 minutes. 

 

 

[-DLC-]

12 minutes ago, JayDangles said:

I feel I have to weigh in. Some of the comments defending Jake are so rediculous to me.. I mean how many excuses will people make to defend a player?

-He hasn't been given consistent ice time in top 6

-Green is too punative.

-Power forwards take longer to develop

- He showed some improvement last year

- His shoulder injury prevents him from being physical

-World Juniors killed his confidence

- He wasn't fat at camp.

 

Man I haven't seen so many excuses used to defend a player production and lack of consistency. How about all the Jake supporters stop making excuses for him, and stop trying to nit pick everyone else's stats... And supply something real.

Show something that shows/proves Jake deserves or has earned top 6 minutes. 

 

 

Or, how about we understand that a 24 year old who's shown progress and maybe hasn't reached HIS full potential is worth the investment that's been put in to getting him there? 

 

Look what happened with Kass.  We need guys who are capable of playing a physical game (Jake is, even if used sparingly) and his speed is nothing to ignore.  He has the capability to drive the net and maybe just needs a little more maturing before he gets there.  I'd rather see it realized here than somewhere else.

 

You ignore some of the "reasons"....what's your argument (excuse) for cutting ties?

 

Seems you've been supplied with "something real" (see the list you wrote ^)...now it's your turn to provide a list of why he should go.  Seems fair.

[IBatch]

34 minutes ago, Provost said:

That is again, verifiably not true.  The few times they only get a partial change or the fact one guy is off the ice faster don’t account for 40% of his ice time as an “error rate”.  First off, that would even out and net out to about nothing.  Second, it is just not true.... verifiably not true.  You are making arguments based on your feelings and not actual truth.

 

Miller spent 1.5% of the time on lines that didn’t have Horvat or Petterson.  Pearson was 5%.  That is the amount of “noise” involved in the data with Green shuffling lines to shake things up.

Well 5% is something isn’t it?  I’m not making arguments - I’m just saying stats aren’t the be all end all - and the eye test or the lens in which you use them matters.   Stating  “facts” based on these  stats is very subjective.    And you hit the nail on the head with shuffling lines.   Plus the ice time calculated when lines are changing, when shifts are as short as 20-30 seconds - what is the “percentages” of the actual changes?  Often one guy is still on the ice making sure possession is protected or trying to get it back...for 5-10 of those seconds, if the first or second line is next and JVs still out does that make him top six activated?  Not at all.    That would throw your 40% out the window.   Like I said - if you really want an accurate overall number - go through 69 games of  where each player was put out on each face-off and go from there.   JV did not spend 40% of his time with the top six.   He was used when BB was on the third line, and again when BB was injured briefly before TT came in, plus some spot duty.   His ice time was actually reduced 1:45 from the year before.   And yes for sure there were in game shuffles.   He also spent a string of games on the fourth line as did LE.    13:05 OTOI does not scream top six, it’s third line minutes given the second unit PP time. 

[IBatch]

10 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

Or, how about we understand that a 24 year old who's shown progress and maybe hasn't reached HIS full potential is worth the investment that's been put in to getting him there? 

 

Look what happened with Kass.  We need guys who are capable of playing a physical game (Jake is, even if used sparingly) and his speed is nothing to ignore.  He has the capability to drive the net and maybe just needs a little more maturing before he gets there.  I'd rather see it realized here than somewhere else.

 

You ignore some of the "reasons"....what's your argument (excuse) for cutting ties?

 

Seems you've been supplied with "something real" (see the list you wrote ^)...now it's your turn to provide a list of why he should go.  Seems fair.

The thing is too, if he’s in his prime now and doesn’t get any better there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  He’s already outproduced Hansen, nobody ever complained about him given his draft slot, and JV has  a similar career arc as Raffe Torres, another high pick (5th?) who had a fine career as a middle six forward.    JV is young, he likely hasn’t peaked and was one of our best 5 x 5 per 60 guys last year all for a “whopping “ 1.5 million.   Now he’s getting paid for what he’s worth, is a tradeable asset at that price and it’s a blue ocean scenario with only LE blocking his path and no TT.    If he was a even a second rounder we’d all be raving over him.   He’s not - but he’s also not a bust - you need support players like him and he’s not at all affecting our cap negatively even with his new contract.     Some people just have to complain I suppose. 

[aGENT]

Any talk of Jake being a 'bust' is frankly, silly. There have been higher picks who aren't/weren't the NHL player he is. And he IS an NHL player. Even a pretty half decent, middle 6 capable one. 

 

He has elite speed, a strong shot, puts  up around 40 points +/- and has good size (though he could use it to greater effect) on a fair contract. Nothing wrong with any of that. 

 

The problem with Jake is his lack of commitment, which is in direct correlation to his lack of conditioning. That lack of conditioning ripples out in to all of his flaws. He's no missing Sedin brother, but IMO his supposed 'lack of IQ' for example, is a result of that poor conditioning. Have any of you tried making smart, high pressure decisions while gasping for oxygen? The lack of consistency from one shift to the next or one game to the next? Conditioning. The lack of opportunity in the top 6 everyone keeps whining about in here? Conditioning. 

 

This is a problem only Jake can fix. If he can't/won't soon, he's likely to be traded IMO. The team can't wait forever for him to 'get it'. As of right now, I don't believe management view him as 'Canuck material'. It's up to him to change that. Nobody else. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by aGENT

[Provost]

9 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Any talk of Jake being a 'bust' is frankly, silly. There have been higher picks who aren't/weren't the NHL player he is. And he IS an NHL player. Even a pretty half decent, middle 6 capable one. 

 

He has elite speed, a strong shot, puts  up around 40 points +/- and has good size (though he could use it to greater effect) on a fair contract. Nothing wrong with any of that. 

 

The problem with Jake is his lack of commitment, which is in direct correlation to his lack of conditioning. That lack of conditioning ripples out in to all of his flaws. He's no missing Sedin brother, but IMO his supposed 'lack of IQ' for example, is a result of that poor conditioning. Have any of you tried making smart, high pressure decisions while gasping for oxygen? The lack of consistency from one shift to the next or one game to the next? Conditioning. The lack of opportunity in the top 6 everyone keeps whining about in here? Conditioning. 

 

This is a problem only Jake can fix. If he can't/won't soon, he's likely to be traded IMO. The team can't wait forever for him to 'get it'. As of right now, I don't believe management view him as 'Canuck material'. It's up to him to change that. Nobody else. 

I think this is where the issue lies.  Apparently saying Jake has been a 3rd liner is calling him a bust and "hating on him".  It doesn't have to be pure rose coloured glasses optimism OR seething hate.  

Being a 3rd line NHL player still makes you one of the best 300-400 hockey players on the planet.  Anyone drafted who plays significant NHL games isn't a bust.  Maybe it makes him picked too high in the draft, but that is different than being a bust.  If Jake was taken in the middle of the 1st round he would have been giving full value for his draft spot with his production.  Being picked maybe 5-10 spots too early has nothing to do with him as a player now.. if anything it just says Benning reached to get him where he did and was a bit of a miss.  I suspect NYI would want a do over as well since Dal Colle went a spot ahead of Jake and is nowhere near the player he is.

Maybe he improves to be a legit top 6 fixture, maybe he doesn't.  Nobody knows yet, not even Jake or the smartest hockey people on the planet.  The same people saying he will bust out this season are the same ones that have been saying it every single season.  Hasn't happened yet.  From my perspective, I just go with the odds.  The older a player is and more experience, the more likely they are what they are.  I personally peg the odds of him becoming a consistent, play driving, 50-60 point top 6 guy as lower than him not becoming that.  The Canucks brass (not just the coach) don't seem to have a ton of faith in him blossoming either.  The Miller and Toffoli trades were getting players who play a style we were hoping Jake would.  The short contracts are saying "Show me".  We won't know until later if we missed the boat on extracting the most out of the asset in trading him.  If we don't get another top 6 option, just by osmosis Virtanen will get more points with more playing time with (likely) Petterson and Miller.  Maybe he is worth more then.. who knows.

[aGENT]

9 minutes ago, Provost said:

I think this is where the issue lies.  Apparently saying Jake has been a 3rd liner is calling him a bust and "hating on him".  It doesn't have to be pure rose coloured glasses optimism OR seething hate.  

Being a 3rd line NHL player still makes you one of the best 300-400 hockey players on the planet.  Anyone drafted who plays significant NHL games isn't a bust.  Maybe it makes him picked too high in the draft, but that is different than being a bust.  If Jake was taken in the middle of the 1st round he would have been giving full value for his draft spot with his production.  Being picked maybe 5-10 spots too early has nothing to do with him as a player now.. if anything it just says Benning reached to get him where he did and was a bit of a miss.  I suspect NYI would want a do over as well since Dal Colle went a spot ahead of Jake and is nowhere near the player he is.

Maybe he improves to be a legit top 6 fixture, maybe he doesn't.  Nobody knows yet, not even Jake or the smartest hockey people on the planet.  The same people saying he will bust out this season are the same ones that have been saying it every single season.  Hasn't happened yet.  From my perspective, I just go with the odds.  The older a player is and more experience, the more likely they are what they are.  I personally peg the odds of him becoming a consistent, play driving, 50-60 point top 6 guy as lower than him not becoming that.  The Canucks brass (not just the coach) don't seem to have a ton of faith in him blossoming either.  The Miller and Toffoli trades were getting players who play a style we were hoping Jake would.  The short contracts are saying "Show me".  We won't know until later if we missed the boat on extracting the most out of the asset in trading him.  If we don't get another top 6 option, just by osmosis Virtanen will get more points with more playing time with (likely) Petterson and Miller.  Maybe he is worth more then.. who knows.

The real kicker may be that we unfortunately end up with a similar situation as Kassian in that Jake 'needs' to be moved, maybe even a couple times, before he figures it out. He may do it, it just might not be here. And it might never have been here, regardless of what we do. And some will still blame coaches/management for it. 

[EdgarM]

7 hours ago, IBatch said:

EdgarM, your correct.   13:05 isn’t top six.   There were two relatively short stretches where he played in the top six, one when BB was moved to the third line - I said around 8 games but was being too generous, it was more like 5 (and threads popped up on this forum at the time), and again when BB was injured until TT came, about the same amount of time.   Otherwise it was a few games here and there while LE played with Beagle and he was moved up.   That’s not 30 games.   Suggested maybe around 20 but doubt if anyone got all the game lineups and counted them it would even get that high.   Problem with stats is the lens one takes when evaluating them, and the ones in question don’t factor in the last two guys off the ice or first one on it etc, bet EPs or Miller’s would also make it look like they spent 10–15% of their time in the bottom six but we all know that’s not true.  It’s a team sport and at one point or the other practically every regular gets some time with all four lines. The eye test matters too, and LE for sure played mostly on the second line.   I’m not at all complaining about TG usage - he seems to have JV on a short leash but also values what he adds to the team and how he gives any line a possible boost.   Consistent quality is JVs biggest hurdle, one he himself acknowledged when he signed recently, and one I’m sure JB drove home during his contract talks.    He’s obviously taking it seriously too which is great.   JV could still become a core player for us.   That would really help us.  
 

Edit:  As curiosity want too add THN does a lot of mags that rank players, both current and all-time.   When they do the all-time rankings some of the best in the business, hockey historians are called upon and they have to consider all the stats.  One of the key metrics in this especially when it comes to defenseman but forwards too is looking at actual usage from coach to coach.   If the consistently are used more then anyone else it’s considered very valuable - it’s not just about points.   Really it’s one of the most important stats available.   JV’s right around where he should be for a third line frequent second PP unit guy at just over 13 minutes.  

Yes thanks for confirming Ibatch. I also go by the eye test and watcing every game from start to finish. It really bothered me having LE consistently playing in the top 6 ,when he obviously hadn't earned it ,while one of our up and coming young guys like Jake are playing less minutes in a game. For this reason I paid attention to when Jake came over the boards and when LE did. 

I remember the preaching was we are developing our young core and that each player had to earn their ice time. 

I for sure realize that Jake lacked conditioning, and enthusiasm at times, but no one could tell me LE deserved being on the ice, never mind playing in the top 6. He came here as a high priced UFA to produce offensively and obviously that part of his game left him long ago. He is now praised for his defense ,which any of our prospects could be doing and should be doing.

Jake needs to mature ,and that will come, but some on here are writing off a 24 year old , high draft pick, because sometimes he lacks enthusiasm and parties too much? 

My only hope is that he is given the chance to succeed, or fail, whichever happens in the next couple of years but that is not going to happen until the coach realizes that playing a guy like LE is a detriment to this team. They are  developing and learning how to win and LE's only serves as a boat anchor and stagnates that process. Much like what was going on when the team clinged on to the Sedins when it was obvious they were past their prime and needed to retire. 

Let the kids play, let the kids develope and worry less about stats and who is right or who is wrong, just as long as OUR team wins. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by EdgarM

[Provost]

2 hours ago, debluvscanucks said:

Or, how about we understand that a 24 year old who's shown progress and maybe hasn't reached HIS full potential is worth the investment that's been put in to getting him there? 

 

Look what happened with Kass.  We need guys who are capable of playing a physical game (Jake is, even if used sparingly) and his speed is nothing to ignore.  He has the capability to drive the net and maybe just needs a little more maturing before he gets there.  I'd rather see it realized here than somewhere else.

 

You ignore some of the "reasons"....what's your argument (excuse) for cutting ties?

 

Seems you've been supplied with "something real" (see the list you wrote ^)...now it's your turn to provide a list of why he should go.  Seems fair.

That is an entirely different argument than what people are making.

Saying he "may" become a legitimate top 6 guy is manifestly different from saying he is already one; or has never gotten a fair shake; and literally lying by saying that he has only ever gotten minimal time playing with our skilled players.  It just simply isn't true.  He has never stuck in the top 6 consistently, but has had plenty of ice time and tryouts there.

There is a valid argument as to whether he will become a consistent top 6 guy or is as good as he will ever get.  There is no valid argument that he has been one already.   There is no argument to make that the entire Canucks front office is conspiring against the player by denying him any opportunity to succeed.  As has been listed above, he has had plenty of ice time with our best players... they just haven't found him to be an effective fit there historically.

[JayDangles]

1 hour ago, debluvscanucks said:

Or, how about we understand that a 24 year old who's shown progress and maybe hasn't reached HIS full potential is worth the investment that's been put in to getting him there? 

 

Look what happened with Kass.  We need guys who are capable of playing a physical game (Jake is, even if used sparingly) and his speed is nothing to ignore.  He has the capability to drive the net and maybe just needs a little more maturing before he gets there.  I'd rather see it realized here than somewhere else.

 

You ignore some of the "reasons"....what's your argument (excuse) for cutting ties?

 

Seems you've been supplied with "something real" (see the list you wrote ^)...now it's your turn to provide a list of why he should go.  Seems fair.

I think maybe you've miss-interpreted my intent. I don't think Virtanen needs to go. I'm actually on the fence about him still. My point was simply that I'm so tired of hearing all these excuses brought up everytime someone questions Virtanen's lack of production, or more importantly consistency. I can't think of another player at all, who got so much fan support and defense for mediocrity. Here we are calling for Sutter to be bought out and he out produced Virtanen in the playoffs, while winning faceoffs and having a big role on the PK. 

I just don't get why people defend him so hard and have this blind faith that next year he will turn it around or figure it out. At 24 he should know how to work hard every game and not take 10 games off here and there. At his age he should be showing up 9 games in a row (not necessarily producing numbers, but at least putting in the effort) and then faltering for a game or two, not the other way around.

 

 

 

[Frozen Water Walker]

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=160279

 

Josh Ho Sang a late first round pick but it looks like his new contract is for  playing in the AHL,

 

Jake is an NHL player, and I think he will do well for Vancouver

Edited October 27, 2020 by Frozen Water Walker

[Ballisticsports.]

I think Most agree JV is an NHL player, but saying power forwards take longer is not really true - some do, (just like skilled payers as well).

 

But i don't think JV will be a power forward we hope for (It was his game when he was bigger and faster as a kid) but Jake has never played like a power forward as Bertuzzi or as Ferland does, charging to the front of the net to score ugly goals and agitating with his physical presence, instead he plays more similar to Mason Raymond, racing down the outside, with some 2 way ability and a shot

 

He just doesn't appear to have the anger or fire to be those kinds of player and probably why he is most polarizing, He is built like a Semi, but plays like he is in a Smart car

 

He will most likely be a good useful 3rd line guy and not the Bertuzzi, Neely types.

I remember expectations of Sandlak, Bernier, Pyatt, Isbister, Lars Eller, Kassian after similar starts.

He is young enough that he can still be a better player, but not the Mack truck everyone would like

 

 

 

 

[IBatch]

23 minutes ago, ba;;isticsports said:

I think Most agree JV is an NHL player, but saying power forwards take longer is not really true - some do, (just like skilled payers as well).

 

But i don't think JV will be a power forward we hope for (It was his game when he was bigger and faster as a kid) but Jake has never played like a power forward as Bertuzzi or as Ferland does, charging to the front of the net to score ugly goals and agitating with his physical presence, instead he plays more similar to Mason Raymond, racing down the outside, with some 2 way ability and a shot

 

He just doesn't appear to have the anger or fire to be those kinds of player and probably why he is most polarizing, He is built like a Semi, but plays like he is in a Smart car

 

He will most likely be a good useful 3rd line guy and not the Bertuzzi, Neely types.

I remember expectations of Sandlak, Bernier, Pyatt, Isbister, Lars Eller, Kassian after similar starts.

He is young enough that he can still be a better player, but not the Mack truck everyone would like

 

 

 

 

He came in with some fire this playoffs and even made quite an impact.   Had a great defensive play stopping a high quality scoring chance, had a fight and screamed lets go to the bench after which I of course loved, and scored a high skilled goal with their goalie cheating off the goalpost and nothing else to shoot at.   Then of course he faded.   He’s a little like Kovalev used to be but nothing quite as skilled.   That guy had the tools to be the best players in the game and always left his teams fans wanting more.   For me because we’ve seen what he can do when he hits why not use that on a nightly basis instead of a couple times a season.   Stats show he hits often enough but that’s more finishing a check then doing any damage.   I still think his draft slot bugs fans as much as anything .... funny thing is he’s right on par for that too.   400 games is the scouting departments expectations for a 6th overall pick.  Less then that he’s a bust.   Unless injuries get in the way he most certainly surpass that and it’s reasonable to think he could get another 2-3 year deal after his current one.    Rarely do the entire top ten overall picks make it.   And often some don’t even play more then a handful of games.    The team still needs reasonably priced guys to do what he does, and he’s already proven to be a bit of a Swiss Army knife for TG.    LE gets more minutes on the second line because he just works.   That said the bar is set low enough and given JVs off-season commitments and one year contract I’m pretty sure he got an earful about his current expectations.   Hope he can make it work. 

[JayDangles]

49 minutes ago, IBatch said:

He came in with some fire this playoffs and even made quite an impact.   Had a great defensive play stopping a high quality scoring chance, had a fight and screamed lets go to the bench after which I of course loved, and scored a high skilled goal with their goalie cheating off the goalpost and nothing else to shoot at.   Then of course he faded.   He’s a little like Kovalev used to be but nothing quite as skilled.   That guy had the tools to be the best players in the game and always left his teams fans wanting more.   For me because we’ve seen what he can do when he hits why not use that on a nightly basis instead of a couple times a season.   Stats show he hits often enough but that’s more finishing a check then doing any damage.   I still think his draft slot bugs fans as much as anything .... funny thing is he’s right on par for that too.   400 games is the scouting departments expectations for a 6th overall pick.  Less then that he’s a bust.   Unless injuries get in the way he most certainly surpass that and it’s reasonable to think he could get another 2-3 year deal after his current one.    Rarely do the entire top ten overall picks make it.   And often some don’t even play more then a handful of games.    The team still needs reasonably priced guys to do what he does, and he’s already proven to be a bit of a Swiss Army knife for TG.    LE gets more minutes on the second line because he just works.   That said the bar is set low enough and given JVs off-season commitments and one year contract I’m pretty sure he got an earful about his current expectations.   Hope he can make it work. 

I could not disagree with this statement more. JV was an utter disappointment this playoffs for someone of his frame, speed and shot. Yes, I remember the great defensive play, and yes I remember the lucky goal line goal.  (I loved the goal, but lets not go overboard) Other than those two plays, JV was barely noticeable throughout the entire 16 game playoffs. 

 

Jake is a complete hockey tease. Either youre a huge supporter because you're addicted to the flashes of brilliance and pray that he will give you just a little more(but doesn't).. OR you are someone who is sick of the drama and just wants some consistency. Either way he leaves everyone wanting more.

 

 

 

 

[IBatch]

3 minutes ago, JayDangles said:

I could not disagree with this statement more. JV was an utter disappointment this playoffs for someone of his frame, speed and shot. Yes, I remember the great defensive play, and yes I remember the lucky goal line goal.  (I loved the goal, but lets not go overboard) Other than those two plays, JV was barely noticeable throughout the entire 16 game playoffs. 

 

Jake is a complete hockey tease. Either youre a huge supporter because you're addicted to the flashes of brilliance and pray that he will give you just a little more(but doesn't).. OR you are someone who is sick of the drama and just wants some consistency. Either way he leaves everyone wanting more.

 

 

 

 

Yep.   Hopefully he can add some consistent play to his game - he said as much after he was signed.   And given JB comments about how he was disappointed in his performance I’d expect he’s been given an ultimatum of sorts.   That said he’s ok as a third or bottom six guy.   Just hope he can figure it out.   If I had a hundred bucks for every post on here that said something along the lines “just wait until the playoffs, JVs game is built for that” id probably go buy a nice new truck or something.    At the end of the day I’ve already accepted JV, he’s a good support player, maybe nothing more - it’s not like his cap hit has ever hurt the team one bit though.   And I doubt it will this year either even with the raise. 

[Ferlands_Head]

10 hours ago, IBatch said:

His ATOI was 13:05 last season, some on the PP, down from 14:49 the year before .. he was one of our better 5 x 5 PP60 as well which was nice to see.   Aside from BB going down to the third line for a stretch of games, and later on when he was injured before the TT trade,  his time in the top six was spotty.   The stat line or “ math” that Provost is using does paint a picture but it doesn’t factor in that JV is on the ice as are all other players, before and after shifts are fully changed, would love to see what EP, Miller, Horvat and Pearson’s look like too, they’d show a different story with just as many percentage lines, doesn’t mean they were used in the middle or bottom six as we all know that’s not true - they didn’t play 10-20 games in the bottom six.  

 

 13:05 isn’t top six minutes but it’s very good third line ones...Adam Gaudette played 47 seconds less...that shows you about what extra time JV got right there in the top six....Pearson for example played 16:31, Horvat, BB, Miller, EP 18:34 and up...Sutter and Motte has more time then JV who’s 8th for forwards overall but of course special teams affect that (PK)...Speaking of PP time JV was seventh on the team for forwards too, not exactly a fixture, and really it’s almost the same as Sutter who had one minute overall time less then JV..  curiously LE’s minutes are less then JV’s too which muddies the waters a little. 

 

Minutes played or ATOI, shows a lot about a coaches usage.    40% or 30 total games playing in the top six doesn’t line up with the eye test or the “math”... its impossible to differentiate the stats with who he’s on the ice with if he’s the last person off or the first person on.   If anyone wants to spend the time to go back and check every line-up card from the start of the season to the end of the season, I’m sure he wasn’t started in the top six more then 20ish games.   And the fact his ice time actually went down 1:30 minutes from 2018-2019 doesn’t scream extra usage in the top six either.  
 

Also when it came to the playoffs JV had some time too (in the top six), after our five game winning streak ended and needed a different look.    Think TG relies on JV to shake it up, that’s undeniable, but both the coach and the GM weren’t ready to hand the keys to the top six yet with LE getting more cracks at it - if it ain’t broken and all of that.   We for sure should see what he’s made of next season with no TT coming back..also I don’t think anyone here is saying he wasn’t given time in the top six - for sure he was when BB played on the third line for an 8 game or so stretch and before TT arrived when he was injured, but he also played on the fourth line quite a few games too.   Again he’s like a Swiss Army knife to any line that needs a boost - much like Hansen was.   Except he’s already scored more goals in a single shortened season so there is hope yet for him.    This for sure is going to be his opportunity. 
 

Edit:  Finally what’s wrong with the eye test too (did everyone commenting on this actually watch the games?).    How many games did we see JV double shifted on two different lines for example?  In game management definitely happened both in the regular season and the playoffs - sometimes it was JV getting the extra shift - sometimes Horvat or even Miller.   LEs minutes too, sometimes he’s sitting when we are behind and JV gets some shifts, others he’s the empty net warrior late in the third up a goal, but one things for certain, LE started on the second line way more then JV did.  Aside from two stretches most games JV was on the third line. 

I checked the numbers for EP, Miller, Horvat and Pearson and the numbers align with the eye test. It definitely doesn't show that they're playing 10-20 games in the bottom 6.

 

You're bang on about the 20 ish games he started in the top 6 though. He started 11 games near the beginning of the season with Horvat and Pearson including 6 games in a row. Then he had another 10 games starting on EP's line broken into 2 stretches and another random 9 games where he didn't start in the top 6 but played mostly with one of Horvat or Pettersson. 

 

There's no denying that ATOI of 13:05 isn't top 6 minutes. However it also isn't just "2-3 shifts" in the top 6 like what others (not you) are suggesting. 

 

Yes I catch all the games either on TV or live,  I would not comment based on scoreboard watching   

 

 

[EdgarM]

10 hours ago, Ferlands_Head said:

I checked the numbers for EP, Miller, Horvat and Pearson and the numbers align with the eye test. It definitely doesn't show that they're playing 10-20 games in the bottom 6.

 

You're bang on about the 20 ish games he started in the top 6 though. He started 11 games near the beginning of the season with Horvat and Pearson including 6 games in a row. Then he had another 10 games starting on EP's line broken into 2 stretches and another random 9 games where he didn't start in the top 6 but played mostly with one of Horvat or Pettersson. 

 

There's no denying that ATOI of 13:05 isn't top 6 minutes. However it also isn't just "2-3 shifts" in the top 6 like what others (not you) are suggesting. 

 

Yes I catch all the games either on TV or live,  I would not comment based on scoreboard watching   

 

 

As you can see by your own stats he never had any consistent time with the top 6. A 6 game stretch and a 10 game stretch "broken into 2 stretches", so really not much more then 5-6 game in a row.

The other consideration to think about is that even if Jake "started" the game with the top 6, by the end of the game he was back playing on the 3rd line most of time, epecially if nothing was happening offensively, which I think played a big role in Jake's confidence over time.  

I know you are really, really trying to prove me wrong but the fact remains the same that he was not a "regular" in the top 6 and I think in order to find out if he fits there, he needs to given significant time there to fail or succeed. 

[aGENT]

30 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

As you can see by your own stats he never had any consistent time with the top 6. A 6 game stretch and a 10 game stretch "broken into 2 stretches", so really not much more then 5-6 game in a row.

The other consideration to think about is that even if Jake "started" the game with the top 6, by the end of the game he was back playing on the 3rd line most of time, epecially if nothing was happening offensively, which I think played a big role in Jake's confidence over time.  

I know you are really, really trying to prove me wrong but the fact remains the same that he was not a "regular" in the top 6 and I think in order to find out if he fits there, he needs to given significant time there to fail or succeed. 

Don't earn it, you don't get it. I'm not sure why people have trouble with this?

[EdgarM]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

Don't earn it, you don't get it. I'm not sure why people have trouble with this?

I have 2 words for you..........LUI.................ERICKSSON! 

[EdgarM]

4 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Don't earn it, you don't get it. I'm not sure why people have trouble with this?

I have 2 words for you..........LUI.................ERICKSSON! 

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