[Discussion] Bargain Bin

[UKNuck96]

26 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

I don't mind the idea of Hamonic, but does he even want to come here? I know he wants to be out west because of his family. I'm surprised he hasn't signed somewhere by now. I wonder if he might seriously consider retirement given health concerns@his children. It's not as if he hasn't already made millions. He's also likely peaked being 30, I'd rather see what we've got in 22 year old Juolevi given how patient we've been with his development thus far.

 

I don't see the logic for Athanasiou though? He's got slightly better numbers than Jake and a thirty goal season to his name. But he's also two years older. Doesn't strike me as a drastic upgrade over Jake, who could flourish this upcoming season with more extensive top six opportunity. And who knows what we have in Juolevi? He's played well at the Utica level, coaching staff and management are very familiar with him and his game. And a first on top of that? Hamonic and Athanasiou ain't worth that package, not even for future cap flexibility. We'd be better off riding out a season of Eriksson and buying him out or retaining half of his final year in a trade. 

 

If we're willing to give up a 1st it'd better be to clear space to facilitate taking a piece or two from Tampa to help them with their cap woes. 

This is probably the only reason why I would be okay with them cap dumping and using a first to do it, provided the piece we then get is viewed as a player that’s going to grow with the core as opposed to a quick fix now. 

[Coconuts]

10 minutes ago, UKNuck96 said:

This is probably the only reason why I would be okay with them cap dumping and using a first to do it, provided the piece we then get is viewed as a player that’s going to grow with the core as opposed to a quick fix now. 

Agreed. If we're moving significant assets to open up cap space it absolutely must be to bring in a piece of significance imo. I wouldn't want JB doing it to go shopping for bargains, it'd need to be a clear (and hopefully long-term) upgrade to the roster going forward. Whoever we're bringing in has to be worth giving up what it'd take to move cap in this environment along with whatever it'd take to acquire said player. Poaching from Tampa or a similarly cap strapped team is about the only thing I could see being the driving force behind such a move at this point. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by Coconuts

[mll]

39 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

If you want to give up a 1st to get rid of Loui then I would do it only if we could get Cernak from Tampa.  Send Loui and our 2021 1st and a prospect to Ottawa for futures and then trade Rafferty to Tampa for Cernak and Killorn.  Tampa clears $4,450,000 in cap space which should give them enough room to sign both Sergachev and Cirelli.

 

Effectively we trade a 1st and Rafferty for Cernak and Killorn.   

Melnyk talks of making the playoffs - they have plenty of prospects and are looking to start being competitive.  That pretty much excludes them from taking cap dumps.  They just spent 5M x 3 years on UFA Dadonov + 6.25x 4 years on Murray - can't see them wanting to add Eriksson for 2 of those years.  There are better ways to spend that kind of cap space - themselves could go after Cernak and Killorn instead.  

 

Dorion explained that he hoarded picks for this past draft because it was a deep draft.  Next year is not considered as deep so the 1st might have not have that much value unless it's a very high pick.

 

[UKNuck96]

28 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Agreed. If we're moving significant assets to open up cap space it absolutely must be to bring in a piece of significance imo. I wouldn't want JB doing it to go shopping for bargains, it'd need to be a clear (and hopefully long-term) upgrade to the roster going forward. Whoever we're bringing in has to be worth giving up what it'd take to move cap in this environment along with whatever it'd take to acquire said player. Poaching from Tampa or a similarly cap strapped team is about the only thing I could see being the driving force behind such a move at this point. 

Agreed - it’s frustrating to see people proposing dumping most of the bottom 6 giving up half the farm and almost all the futures and the plan is ‘to not have them on the team’ 

 

I personally don’t see them doing anything else now unless JB can make a steal of a trade based on conversations with tampa. But that would be acting on the opportunity rather than directly seeking it out, which is where I think any moves (if any) will come from 

[Coconuts]

17 minutes ago, UKNuck96 said:

Agreed - it’s frustrating to see people proposing dumping most of the bottom 6 giving up half the farm and almost all the futures and the plan is ‘to not have them on the team’ 

 

I personally don’t see them doing anything else now unless JB can make a steal of a trade based on conversations with tampa. But that would be acting on the opportunity rather than directly seeking it out, which is where I think any moves (if any) will come from 

I agree, the players we currently have in the system are likely the players we see at camp. If opportunity knocks I'm sure management will take a good hard look at it. He's likely always talking to other GM's and asking about this player or that player, while taking calls from other GM's doing the same. Unless something great comes up and it's worth biting the bullet to deal with a team to dump cap (probably Detroit) we probably just ride a few of our contracts out over this coming season and see what our youth bring to the table come training camp. 

 

I also don't see Jim being all that keen on moving his first in general. He's shown he'll do it if his management team feels it makes sense, but I got the feeling management really didn't like not having their top picks at draft time. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by Coconuts

[Elias Pettersson]

8 hours ago, mll said:

Melnyk talks of making the playoffs - they have plenty of prospects and are looking to start being competitive.  That pretty much excludes them from taking cap dumps.  They just spent 5M x 3 years on UFA Dadonov + 6.25x 4 years on Murray - can't see them wanting to add Eriksson for 2 of those years.  There are better ways to spend that kind of cap space - themselves could go after Cernak and Killorn instead.  

 

Dorion explained that he hoarded picks for this past draft because it was a deep draft.  Next year is not considered as deep so the 1st might have not have that much value unless it's a very high pick.

 

Ottawa could do that deal with Tampa for sure.  So could Detroit.  The question is will they?  Both teams look like they want to stockpile draft picks and their window isn't next year or the year after.  Ottawa could be competitive this year but I highly doubt they are going to make the playoffs.  Melnyk spending to the cap is something I don't see happening in our lifetime.  He has an internal cap and most likely has already reached that number.  With Loui he only needs to pay him $1 million this year and $4 million next year and he would get a 1st round pick out of the deal.  If he goes after Cernak and Killorn that is $7 million at least in real dollars next year and the year after that so $14 million total.  I doubt Melnyk will want to add $14 million in payroll over the next 2 years, especially during a pandemic.

[mll]

59 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Ottawa could do that deal with Tampa for sure.  So could Detroit.  The question is will they?  Both teams look like they want to stockpile draft picks and their window isn't next year or the year after.  Ottawa could be competitive this year but I highly doubt they are going to make the playoffs.  Melnyk spending to the cap is something I don't see happening in our lifetime.  He has an internal cap and most likely has already reached that number.  With Loui he only needs to pay him $1 million this year and $4 million next year and he would get a 1st round pick out of the deal.  If he goes after Cernak and Killorn that is $7 million at least in real dollars next year and the year after that so $14 million total.  I doubt Melnyk will want to add $14 million in payroll over the next 2 years, especially during a pandemic.

 

Ottawa have stockpiled prospects at all positions.  At some point teams come out of their rebuild.  Money is made when the team is competitive - staying at the bottom of the standings is not profitable and costs money.    

 

Even if they don't spend up to the cap there are better ways to spend his dollars than give 5M to Eriksson.    Ottawa also has players to sign in a year.  Next year could be just as dire and the opportunity for them to take advantage with their cap space.  

 

[Elias Pettersson]

1 minute ago, mll said:

 

Ottawa have stockpiled prospects at all positions.  At some point teams come out of their rebuild.  Money is made when the team is competitive - staying at the bottom of the standings is not profitable and costs money.    

 

Even if they don't spend up to the cap there are better ways to spend his dollars than give 5M to Eriksson.    Ottawa also has players to sign in a year.  Next year could be just as dire and the opportunity for them to take advantage with their cap space.  

 

Yeah for sure.  They just signed Galchenyuk for $1 million so it looks like their internal cap is probably around $70 million.  I don't see them adding any more pieces.  They have a good young team and like you said need to re-up some guys next year, most notably Brady Tkachuk.  They also have over $18 million coming off the books next year, so even if they need to re-sign some of their younger players I still don't see them spending anywhere close to the cap next year.

[BigTramFan]

12 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

You want to effectively give up 3 1st round picks just to get rid of 2 years of Eriksson?  That’s insane.  And when we get rid of him you want to spend the extra cash on Hamonic and Athanasiou?  Seriously?  I think we’d be a better team by actually keeping Virtanen and Juolevi and sending Loui to Utica.  And we get to keep our 1st round pick. 

Fair enough. But continuing to call Virtanen and Juolevi "first round picks" is also insane. They are no longer picks, they are players with real flaws, and neither is worth a first round pick any more. Virtanen is inconsistent and has poor hockey IQ, he disappears in the playoffs and is a floater with poor work ethic. He doesn't fit on this Canucks team. Juolevi is incredibly injury prone, he has stalled at every level due to injuries. It seems unlikely he will succeed based on the heaviness of games and the NHL schedule. He is also not great in his own end 5v5. Of course he may turn into an NHL player, but we have Hughes and Schmidt ahead of him on LD, plus Rathbone looks likely to overtake Juolevi in the next year IMO.

My suggestions are about adding firepower to our top 6 (instead of Virtanen wasting a spot) and actually having a strong top 5 D (not just AHL Dmen) in order to cover for injuries.

These kind of moves could be the difference between Canucks being a contender this coming season or not. If we have JV in our top 6 and an AHL level defense - forget about it!

[Dixon Ward]

I am still hoping that we somehow become a landing spot for Vatanen at a discount. The Lightning showed that defence moving the puck is very valuable and Vatanen is a rhd who can move the puck.  He can be top pairing if needed.  With injuries predictable, it would be great to have a very deep d.  

 

Elder Schmidt

Hughes Myers

Benn Vatanen

Juolevi  Rafferty

Brisebois Chatfield

Sautner  Woo

 

 

This gives some solid depth and gives Green lots of options.  I wouldn't hate Hamonic but I think Vatanen is better and fits better in the modern nhl.

 

 

[Bure_Pavel]

Canucks should 100% sign Bowey to a deal at 1 million or under. Good skating RD that can lay the body and entering his prime. played 51 games for the Caps the year they won the cup (no playoff games). Played for the Rockets, so I would assume he has fond memories of BC. Seems like a no brainer. 

 

Elder Schmidt

Hughes Myers

Juolevi Bowey

Benn Rafferty

Edited October 28, 2020 by Bure_Pavel

[Elias Pettersson]

2 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

Fair enough. But continuing to call Virtanen and Juolevi "first round picks" is also insane. They are no longer picks, they are players with real flaws, and neither is worth a first round pick any more. Virtanen is inconsistent and has poor hockey IQ, he disappears in the playoffs and is a floater with poor work ethic. He doesn't fit on this Canucks team. Juolevi is incredibly injury prone, he has stalled at every level due to injuries. It seems unlikely he will succeed based on the heaviness of games and the NHL schedule. He is also not great in his own end 5v5. Of course he may turn into an NHL player, but we have Hughes and Schmidt ahead of him on LD, plus Rathbone looks likely to overtake Juolevi in the next year IMO.

My suggestions are about adding firepower to our top 6 (instead of Virtanen wasting a spot) and actually having a strong top 5 D (not just AHL Dmen) in order to cover for injuries.

These kind of moves could be the difference between Canucks being a contender this coming season or not. If we have JV in our top 6 and an AHL level defense - forget about it!

Every first round pick has flaws.  Some don’t even make it to the NHL.  I’m not suggesting that Virtanen and Juolevi are still top 5 picks, but they are at least equal to the players you want to replace them with and on top of that you want to give up a first round pick to bring in 2 UFA’s that nobody wants.  

 

You don’t have any idea what’s going to happen to Juolevi moving forward.  You can’t write him off when he hasn’t even played an NHL game yet.  You want to replace him with Hamonic, a guy who had his worst year ever last year while Juolevi is just starting to come around at 22.  That’s not very good asset management.  Also, you are stating you want to add more firepower to our top 6, which implies that Athanasiou would provide that.  Athanasiou scored a total of 11 goals last year, Virtanen had 18.  So how are we “adding” more firepower to the lineup when you are getting rid of a guy who scored more goals last year than the guy you want to replace him with?

 

Like I said, we are better off keeping Virtanen and Juolevi versus replacing them with Athanasiou and Hamonic.  There is a reason why Athanasiou and Hamonic are currently unsigned.  And the contracts you proposed to give them aren’t even close to what they are going to get.  I’d be surprised if either player gets a new contract above $1.5 million. 

[KKnight]

On 10/27/2020 at 2:34 AM, King Heffy said:

I'd love to find a way to get Hamonic here.

He would take a lot of pressure off of Myers and Schmidt for the penalty kill. 

 

Saying that, I still rather give Rafferty a shot. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by KKnight

[babalu]

Vatanen and Grandlund on Galchenyuk type contracts would be a nice add.

[IBatch]

On 10/27/2020 at 5:03 AM, Drakrami said:

This is a $&!# ton of people still not signed yet, and the shocking thing is most of them wont get signed lol. Most teams are already at cap limit. How is Del Zotto just 30 years old lol.  Looks like Stecher made the right decision to take that low ball contract from Detriot. Hutton cant even find a job. 

By the way, we are over the caplimit. And our lineup's most pressing flaw is lack of defensive depth after our top 4. Imagine if 2 of them gets injured. 

Yep.   And want to say again that things will be even worse next season when another crop of UFAs look for work and another crop of RFAs are up for significant raises percentage wise to their salary.   It’s going to hit a crisis point as the model only works if the cap keeps climbing.   Even 10% on all the qualifying offers which is automatically built in is a huge amount of pressure.   Any teeny tiny amount of available cap space will become gold for teams next off season.   The league might have to step in with a temporary solution, otherwise a lot of NHLers will be looking for jobs elsewhere, and the ones that do sign will get a lot less then they hoped for.   Hate to say this but for our particular team this isn’t a bad thing necessarily, it could help both EP and QHs bridge or long term deals - and re-signing Edler at a bargain price too (like 3 years at 2 million or something).    For sure we will see a lot of bargains, it’s also why I wanted JB to let his expensive guys walk so we could get in on some weaponizing next off season.   Didn’t think he’d pull it off so soon.   There is opportunity to do it again next year as well, and then fill the remaining holes with 700k proven NHL vets. 

[mll]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Yep.   And want to say again that things will be even worse next season when another crop of UFAs look for work and another crop of RFAs are up for significant raises percentage wise to their salary.   It’s going to hit a crisis point as the model only works if the cap keeps climbing.   Even 10% on all the qualifying offers which is automatically built in is a huge amount of pressure.   Any teeny tiny amount of available cap space will become gold for teams next off season.   The league might have to step in with a temporary solution, otherwise a lot of NHLers will be looking for jobs elsewhere, and the ones that do sign will get a lot less then they hoped for.   Hate to say this but for our particular team this isn’t a bad thing necessarily, it could help both EP and QHs bridge or long term deals - and re-signing Edler at a bargain price too (like 3 years at 2 million or something).    For sure we will see a lot of bargains, it’s also why I wanted JB to let his expensive guys walk so we could get in on some weaponizing next off season.   Didn’t think he’d pull it off so soon.   There is opportunity to do it again next year as well, and then fill the remaining holes with 700k proven NHL vets. 

Seattle gets added to the league and their 81.5M in cap space.

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by mll

[JM_]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Yep.   And want to say again that things will be even worse next season when another crop of UFAs look for work and another crop of RFAs are up for significant raises percentage wise to their salary.   It’s going to hit a crisis point as the model only works if the cap keeps climbing.   Even 10% on all the qualifying offers which is automatically built in is a huge amount of pressure.   Any teeny tiny amount of available cap space will become gold for teams next off season.   The league might have to step in with a temporary solution, otherwise a lot of NHLers will be looking for jobs elsewhere, and the ones that do sign will get a lot less then they hoped for.   Hate to say this but for our particular team this isn’t a bad thing necessarily, it could help both EP and QHs bridge or long term deals - and re-signing Edler at a bargain price too (like 3 years at 2 million or something).    For sure we will see a lot of bargains, it’s also why I wanted JB to let his expensive guys walk so we could get in on some weaponizing next off season.   Didn’t think he’d pull it off so soon.   There is opportunity to do it again next year as well, and then fill the remaining holes with 700k proven NHL vets. 

I think he shocked a lot of people, including the vet's like Tanev. But anyone looking at cap friendly could see it coming if Loui and Baer couldn't be moved. Nice thing is we don't have a massive anchor going into the peak of the next rebuild and it doesn't look like Jim is itching to go out and get one.

 

It would have been nice to have been able to add one more F and one more D this year, but its not like its a crap group. I fully expect them to be competitive for a playoff spot. 

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I think he shocked a lot of people, including the vet's like Tanev. But anyone looking at cap friendly could see it coming if Loui and Baer couldn't be moved. Nice thing is we don't have a massive anchor going into the peak of the next rebuild and it doesn't look like Jim is itching to go out and get one.

 

It would have been nice to have been able to add one more F and one more D this year, but its not like its a crap group. I fully expect them to be competitive for a playoff spot. 

Yep.  Beagle and Sutter for sure did their jobs this playoffs and made an impact - Motte was a revelation...we have a pretty decent hockey club already - he knows it, knows it’s going to get better and that with smart cap management (as in no more placeholders) a massive Wack of cash coming his way at almost the ideal time, well in some ways exactly at the right time as few teams can win a cup with their young stars still on their ELCs.   We’ve already managed more then TO, EDM etc, AND still have one more crack at the bat this year.   Can respect how some fans are itching for one more top six and one more Schmidt now, but it’s simply way way too costly.   Better off being patient and letting it just shed.  Plus it allows JB to do it in two stages and assess what he has already on the way .. and better manage the ED.   IF we added another top six and another top four D one would be exposed right?

[JM_]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Yep.  Beagle and Sutter for sure did their jobs this playoffs and made an impact - Motte was a revelation...we have a pretty decent hockey club already - he knows it, knows it’s going to get better and that with smart cap management (as in no more placeholders) a massive Wack of cash coming his way at almost the ideal time, well in some ways exactly at the right time as few teams can win a cup with their young stars still on their ELCs.   We’ve already managed more then TO, EDM etc, AND still have one more crack at the bat this year.   Can respect how some fans are itching for one more top six and one more Schmidt now, but it’s simply way way too costly.   Better off being patient and letting it just shed.  Plus it allows JB to do it in two stages and assess what he has already on the way .. and better manage the ED.   IF we added another top six and another top four D one would be exposed right?

yup. We'll see how the TDL goes, I suspect Jim will add if its another hockey trade for a guy with term but if not thats fine too. Its going to be another weird year so I don't mind running this group out one more time to see what they can do. I do think they will do well and I really like the Holtby-Demko tandem a lot. 

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Jimmy McGill

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

yup. We'll see how the TDL goes, I suspect Jim will add if its another hockey trade for a guy with term but if not thats fine too. Its going to be another weird year so I don't mind running this group out one more time to see what they can do. I do think they will do well and I really like the Holtby-Demko tandem a lot. 

 

Me too.   Gives Demko the proper chance he needs without too much pressure.  TG would just play Markstrom as much as he could play - as would any coach in the same position - for them the stat that matters the most is the win/loss column.    For sure Holtby is a proper veteran goalie in this league - it should make for some healthy internal competition, especially after Demko’s stellar post season.   For me it was either Holtby or MAF, zero complaints especially with the cap hit.