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DarkIndianRises

[Proposal] Would the Canucks be a contender with another Top 6 Forwarded added to the group via UFA?

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1 hour ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

The only reason why we've been able to make moves like stealing Schmidt from Vegas is because we've been deliberate in how we've managed the cap space we have (regardless of past years' signings).  It's a lot harder to make those moves if we're already bent over a barrel, which is what the acquisition of Hoffman would result in.

 

No, we don't need him.  Certainly not for this year, and certainly not for a short-term (or any term length) hit.  Next.

 

(PS, it's obvious that this belongs in the proposals section instead of being in Canucks Talk, since the main thrust of your original post was to market Hoffman as the guy to get.)

In response to your PS, it doesn’t even have to be about Hoffman.   My main conceptual reasoning (and questioning) is as follows:

 

1) If a 2nd rounder is enough to get rid of Med Staal’s 5.7 million, then a 2021 1st should be enough to get rid of Sutter + Baertschi (about 7.6 million).

 

2) If 7.6 million - 1.5 million (the amount we’re over in cap right now) gets you to 6.1 million in extra cap space, then 6.1 could possibly land you both a top 6 forward and a serviceable RHD (maybe 4.5 for Hoffman and 1.5 for a guy like Hamonic).

 

3) Would it be worth it to get rid of a 2021 1st and clear up cap if it allowed us to sign a top 6 fwd and a serviceable RHD on one year contracts?    (Which would make us a 3rd round+ calibre team?)

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1 hour ago, janisahockeynut said:

Personally, I don't see the cost being that great...............

 

Sutter is almost a wash, meaning in a non covid year, he proabaly brings back a small return............Now.......Sutter + 2020 4th maybe Sutter and DiPietro

Baertschi to the minors saves $1,050,000 ......Benn to the Minors saves another $1,050,000.....$4,375,00 + $2,100,000 - $1,500,000 = $5,000,000

 

There is your $5,000,000 spend it wisely!

 

 

Benning has not been able to clear cap space despite all his efforts - the cost is too expensive and/or there is no interest regardless of the sweetener.

 

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Throwing away cap concerns, a 3rd line of Gaudette and Virtanen doesn't look too contender like. Both have offensive punch, but not really suitable for 3rd line duty when it needs to be done. We'll see... 

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1 hour ago, gurn said:

I'd like to save enough cap money this year so there is no bonus spillage.

This team needs as much cap space as they can get next year, to sign the players that matter  Petey and Quinn

plus either re-sign or replace  Edler, Pearson, Gaudette, and Sutter plus at least one other d spot for Benn being gone

 

They would need to operate all season long below the cap by the bonus amount that needs to be covered.  CapFriendly shows over 4.5M in potential bonuses (without Juolevi but with Rathbone).  

 

Pettersson and Hughes are likely to hit at least 1.7M again - ie to have 1.7M to cover the bonus they need to operate all season long 1.7M below the cap (or move about 7M or so in contracts out at the TDL) and avoid using LTIR.   LTIR automatically spells a bonus carry over as the team can't bank cap space.

 

 

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Some posters need to do the math by looking at CapFriendly.  With a few internal moves we can clear up to $3.3 million in cap space. 

 

Ferland on LTIR

Baertschi to Utica

Eriksson to Utica

 

That would free up $5.6 million right there.  If we are $1.5 million over the cap now then with those 3 moves it would put us $4.1 million under the cap.  We call up Hawryluk and Juolevi and send down Rathbone and we have $3.3 million with 21 players, 13 forwards and 6 defencemen.  

 

If we run with 22 players then all we need to do is sign one more player.  We could probably get a guy who can play in the top 6 for under $3 million, or pick up another right handed Dman.  If Ferland can actually play and we don’t put him on LTIR then he would be the guy playing in our top 6 with BO and Pearson.  

 

I’m sure Benning’s plan is to wait it out and see where Ferland is at over the next few weeks.  Whether Ferland will play next year will determine our next move I think.  Either way Benning has already traded last year’s 1st and 2nd round pick for Miller and a now departed Tofffoli, so I don’t see him trading future picks unless it is for a young player who can grow with this team, not to clear cap space to pick up a UFA who can help us for one year.  

LTIR could make it challenging cap wise to recall players from the AHL in case of injuries or add Podkolzin mid-season - performance bonuses need to be covered.   It also automatically creates a bonus carry over as it's not possible to bank cap space - not that they would have been able to anyways.  

 

Edited by mll
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1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Some posters need to do the math by looking at CapFriendly.  With a few internal moves we can clear up to $3.3 million in cap space. 

 

Ferland on LTIR

Baertschi to Utica

Eriksson to Utica

 

That would free up $5.6 million right there.  If we are $1.5 million over the cap now then with those 3 moves it would put us $4.1 million under the cap.  We call up Hawryluk and Juolevi and send down Rathbone and we have $3.3 million with 21 players, 13 forwards and 6 defencemen.  

 

If we run with 22 players then all we need to do is sign one more player.  We could probably get a guy who can play in the top 6 for under $3 million, or pick up another right handed Dman.  If Ferland can actually play and we don’t put him on LTIR then he would be the guy playing in our top 6 with BO and Pearson.  

 

I’m sure Benning’s plan is to wait it out and see where Ferland is at over the next few weeks.  Whether Ferland will play next year will determine our next move I think.  Either way Benning has already traded last year’s 1st and 2nd round pick for Miller and a now departed Tofffoli, so I don’t see him trading future picks unless it is for a young player who can grow with this team, not to clear cap space to pick up a UFA who can help us for one year.  

Excellent post.

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1 hour ago, mll said:

 

They would need to operate all season long below the cap by the bonus amount that needs to be covered.  CapFriendly shows over 4.5M in potential bonuses (without Juolevi but with Rathbone).  

 

Pettersson and Hughes are likely to hit at least 1.7M again - ie to have 1.7M to cover the bonus they need to operate all season long 1.7M below the cap (or move about 7M or so in contracts out at the TDL) and avoid using LTIR.   LTIR automatically spells a bonus carry over as the team can't bank cap space.

 

 

LTIR could make it challenging cap wise to recall players from the AHL in case of injuries or add Podkolzin mid-season - performance bonuses need to be covered.   It also automatically creates a bonus carry over as it's not possible to bank cap space - not that they would have been able to anyways.  

 

It’s pretty much guaranteed Juolevi will take one of the 7 spots on D this year, so we won’t have to worry about calling him up.  The only other player we’d have to worry about in regards to bonuses is Podkolzin.  Not sure how that would work if he does come over as he is not technically currently under contract.  If he signs an NHL contract with Vancouver in mid season and gets added to the big club I don’t think that would work the same as if he was sent down and then recalled from Utica.  But I could be wrong.  Is there any info out there in the CBA that talks about this scenario?

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No.

 

To be considered a contender (for the cup), you would have to ice a team that is capable of beating the last year's Stanley cup champs.

 

I'm not against adding Hoffman but that roster is not at that level with or without Hoffman. 

 

If instead of Hoffman, we add Mark Stone or David Pastrnak to that line up, then maybe. So I guess, you are right. Yes, we might be one top 6  top 3 forward away from being a contender... 

 

I hope we don't make moves that we are only going to regret in a year or two. When Hoglander, Podkolzin, Lind and all these guys make the jump, that's when our team will have a legitimate top 6 forward playing on a 3rd line. And similarly for OJ, Rathbone, Woo, Rafferty. When that time comes, we will be contenders. When that time comes, all of our bad cap will be off the book and hopefully EP and QH have reached the superstar levels of Kucherov/Point/Hedman. I think that's when we will contend. No one move is going to make us contender over night. 

 

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I'd say we're at least two years away from being a real contender. Time for Petey and Hughes to fill out a bit and be reaching towards their peak. Plus time for some our young D to gain NHL experience. It could be a little longer depending on young forwards making the team as well. Contenders don't tend to have a lot of first and second year player and that's what we'll be seeing over the next couple of seasons. Gaudette has a ways to go to be able to replace Sutter on the defensive side of being a 3C as well. 

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12 hours ago, khay said:

No.

 

To be considered a contender (for the cup), you would have to ice a team that is capable of beating the last year's Stanley cup champs.

 

I'm not against adding Hoffman but that roster is not at that level with or without Hoffman. 

 

If instead of Hoffman, we add Mark Stone or David Pastrnak to that line up, then maybe. So I guess, you are right. Yes, we might be one top 6  top 3 forward away from being a contender... 

 

I hope we don't make moves that we are only going to regret in a year or two. When Hoglander, Podkolzin, Lind and all these guys make the jump, that's when our team will have a legitimate top 6 forward playing on a 3rd line. And similarly for OJ, Rathbone, Woo, Rafferty. When that time comes, we will be contenders. When that time comes, all of our bad cap will be off the book and hopefully EP and QH have reached the superstar levels of Kucherov/Point/Hedman. I think that's when we will contend. No one move is going to make us contender over night. 

 

Khay, Those guys  you mentioned are all just "prospects" at this time, and not a "given" to be NHL stars, I don't understand why many are eager to give More 1st round players up to get rid of LE who is an NHL player,(albeit grossly over paid) . We are Not just 1 player from being a Presidents Cup team, we should hold on to our high picks, until we see what we have and add to our core. What if the prospects we have do not pan out like we hoped and we have traded away many or all of our top picks ? I agree with you in not rushing it. 

Edited by ba;;isticsports

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3 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

It’s pretty much guaranteed Juolevi will take one of the 7 spots on D this year, so we won’t have to worry about calling him up.  The only other player we’d have to worry about in regards to bonuses is Podkolzin.  Not sure how that would work if he does come over as he is not technically currently under contract.  If he signs an NHL contract with Vancouver in mid season and gets added to the big club I don’t think that would work the same as if he was sent down and then recalled from Utica.  But I could be wrong.  Is there any info out there in the CBA that talks about this scenario?

You need to keep room to be able to recall players from the AHL - there is no banked cap space so you need their full cap hit + performance bonus.  If you have 2 players injured/sick at the same time - you need to have room to add 2x their cap hit in full with performance bonus (if ELC recalls).  Typically teams can deal with those short term injuries/sickness through banked cap space but there is none in LTIR.  

 

A recall from the AHL or a mid-season add are treated the same way - the bonus needs to be covered.  The CBA talks of players added to the roster or replaced.  It's about cap space - it's the same accounting whether a recall or mid-season signing.  The signing bonus also gets marked up so it can be covered over the remaining length of the season.

 

Edited by mll
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14 hours ago, mll said:

Benning has not been able to clear cap space despite all his efforts - the cost is too expensive and/or there is no interest regardless of the sweetener.

 

man you'd think you'd be able to move Baer to Detroit for something less than a 1st so that the Canucks could stay out of LTIR. But Yzerman has Jim by the short ones so it is what it is.

 

 

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Another DIR sell the farm trade all the picks to get cap relief now for short term rentals 

 

 

if we are going to offload picks and potentially prospects, it better be for players that will grow with the core and not diminishing returns.
 

complain when we suck that we cannot win and sign inept players, complain when we win that we haven’t sold the farm for a one shot when we haven’t got all our ducks in a row, and probably also complain that because we have improved but are not contenders  that we should actually be sucking to get prospects we would then want to sell and go around in circles ad infinitum

 

Edited by UKNuck96

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12 hours ago, ba;;isticsports said:

Khay, Those guys  you mentioned are all just "prospects" at this time, and not a "given" to be NHL stars, I don't understand why many are eager to give More 1st round players up to get rid of LE who is an NHL player,(albeit grossly over paid) . We are Not just 1 player from being a Presidents Cup team, we should hold on to our high picks, until we see what we have and add to our core. What if the prospects we have do not pan out like we hoped and we have traded away many or all of our top picks ? I agree with you in not rushing it. 

Which is why, I feel Benning's choice to start competing was premature........it is not the pre-covid thought that the cap was going up, but the fact that we just are not there as a team, in terms of having enough matured players. It is not just the draft that prevents us from being a top 10 player, but the fact we do not have enough top end players.

 

And, most teams at the top end of the league have their cap under control and have enough ELC's maturing to keep the Cap under control. But even saying that, there is a point that your ELC's start needing to get paid, and as Tampa and Vegas, you get so tight, you either have to give away players, or maneuvering your roster in some way that weakens.

your team.

 

Bottom line.....sure I would love to improve the team, but we can't afford the cost.............stay the course, let the contracts run their course, and try to draft well. IMO, it is time to put Eriksson down in the minors, and keep Baertschi down.

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24 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

Which is why, I feel Benning's choice to start competing was premature........it is not the pre-covid thought that the cap was going up, but the fact that we just are not there as a team, in terms of having enough matured players. It is not just the draft that prevents us from being a top 10 player, but the fact we do not have enough top end players.

 

And, most teams at the top end of the league have their cap under control and have enough ELC's maturing to keep the Cap under control. But even saying that, there is a point that your ELC's start needing to get paid, and as Tampa and Vegas, you get so tight, you either have to give away players, or maneuvering your roster in some way that weakens.

your team.

 

Bottom line.....sure I would love to improve the team, but we can't afford the cost.............stay the course, let the contracts run their course, and try to draft well. IMO, it is time to put Eriksson down in the minors, and keep Baertschi down.

I agree with you Not sure how the cap will be and if we have better players to replace those 2 players, but we may be forced to play them if we are paying them. Baer may be given every opportunity to play, maybe even kept on how he performs, or traded and waived again as options

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1 hour ago, Robert Long said:

man you'd think you'd be able to move Baer to Detroit for something less than a 1st so that the Canucks could stay out of LTIR. But Yzerman has Jim by the short ones so it is what it is.

 

 

Well if you owned the wings would buy a pick for $3.7M?

 

Not during Covid that's for sure.

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5 minutes ago, Chris12345 said:

Well if you owned the wings would buy a pick for $3.7M?

 

Not during Covid that's for sure.

its 2.4 in real dollars. Jim would likely retain 1/2 for a 3rd or someone like Linus Karlsson. 

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18 hours ago, DarkIndianRises said:

We don't need a proven and consistent 25-30 goal scorer?                   

 

Psycho girlfriend or not, I wouldn't say 'next' to that.  

 

Bring in Hoffman for a year, put up with the pyscho girlfriend, make significant headway in the playoffs, and then part ways amicably in the off-season.  

NO !   Nice thought - bad idea.       We need to burn up two more years of bad contracts, deadwood and drifters still on this team - THEN - we make the move for two-three high talent players and in no way bring that Physco Bleach Blond (that is Hoffman's personal parasite) into the Canucks family.  Bleach Blond Physco's belong in Alberta where they are a native species.

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