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Knowing what you know now, what would you have done at the TDL if you were GM (Discussion)


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12 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

So, most people think the playoff experience was invaluable, but really, how much experience did we have going into the playoffs?

I would say, not much, and yet we did very good. So with saying that......I ask

 

1. How valuable was the teams veterans playoff experience? 

Truth was, it was Motte, Horvat, Demko, Hughes and Pettersson that most of the heavy lifting

 

JT Miller?

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14 hours ago, Horvat is a Boss said:

I would not have traded for Toffoli since he only ended playing 10 regular season games and 7 Playoff games for us. We won 2 rounds without him. Therefore we keep Madden, Schaller and our 2nd. 

 

Then this offseason, Madden and that 2nd could be used to offload a contract. Maybe attached to Eriksson or possibly Roussel or Beagle. 

 

So essentially we end up at the same point we are at now, but we shed one bad contract. 

Me too.   Even when he did it I felt it was questionable, Madden quickly went from Hobey Baker like to just a small body who’d never make it on the forum it was kind of hilarious.   The cost was fair - Coleman cost a late first or basically a second rounder given TB won a cup,  and most likely it would have been a late first regardless...I’d say what we gave up was like two seconds or a mid-round first.   Steeper, but we also got the better player.   It’s ok though.   He tried and who knew he’d end up injured, he sure played great for us in the regular season, with him at full health the entire Vegas series might have been the difference maker.   
 

Still I don’t think things could have worked out much better.  We tackled two of the best defensive teams in the league in MIN and St. Louis and overcame them, and TG our coached one of the better new coaches in the league as well.  Vegas was tough to watch but we did make it to game seven...

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1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

yes, 100% 

 

the growth in Petey's game in particular was worth it on its own, not to mention Bo learning to dominate a game from time to time, Boeser taking strides, Hughes, Demko, etc etc. 

 

Yes picks are great, and no one's saying they're not. But this team learned a ton about who they are as a team and as individuals. Look at what Chicago did once the core figured out what it took to win, e.g. 

 

Every championship team has to learn this on their own, you can't fantasy hockey in a winner just with picks. 

 

 

Absolutely 100%.

 

Very well said.

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I would or probably tried to shed a contract before COVID while it was marginally cheaper and when teams thought the cap was going up.  
 

Maybe wouldn’t of traded for Toffoli but hindsight is heavy there. Nobody predicted COVID and if we had to play all 82 his acquisition would of been more important. 

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whats done is done why ask now????

 

obviously not all would have done the same and some would have, least Benning showed if can can get help he would take the risk and at times that is better, specially since we needed some playoffs for the younger players

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21 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

yes, 100% 

 

the growth in Petey's game in particular was worth it on its own, not to mention Bo learning to dominate a game from time to time, Boeser taking strides, Hughes, Demko, etc etc. 

 

Yes picks are great, and no one's saying they're not. But this team learned a ton about who they are as a team and as individuals. Look at what Chicago did once the core figured out what it took to win, e.g. 

 

Every championship team has to learn this on their own, you can't fantasy hockey in a winner just with picks. 

 

 

Well said.   Check out the EDM dynasty and how old Messier/Gretzky were even the first time they went to the final.   They had several “lessons” on the way, and their story usually comes back to when they played MTL in the first round in 1981.  They finished with 74 points good for 14th overall, and had to play the still mighty Habs team, fresh off Conference title, division title and 103 points.   It was a coming of age moment, Wayne Gretzky’s and Messiers both for different reasons.   They swept them largely because of WGs heroics but also Messier standing up to Robinson who was starting to take liberties with their young stars and he wasn’t having it at all.   At the time they were not much older then EP and QHs are now,  and us beating St Louis isn’t a lot different either.  Two years later they made it to the final, three more they won their first cup.   EP and QHs would be 23-24 if somehow we manage a similar thing - but the point is - if three of the greatest players ever lace them up, plus four others who were just “average to very good” HHOFers, how many more years will it take us?  Not to mention back then there were 40% less teams around, or that WG turned pro at 17 ... and had already demolished the record books for 6 or so years - about how many Horvat has played now.  
 

Edit:  MTL 70’s dynasty and the NYI dynasty also have similar stories.  Wasn’t until Robinson arrived that they chased the PHI flu out of the dressing room and knocked them off their mantle,  and Potvin changed NYI from a chump to a legitimate team but took awhile for the rest of the parts to gather in.  
 

 

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I think the OP is vastly overestimating what the return would be for an injured Markstrom, an injured Leivo, an injury-prone Tanev, and an undersized bottom-pairing D-man.

 

And dealing all these guys and missing the playoffs would mean our 2021 1st rounder would be gone. Do we really want that over our heads next year? If our goalies falter it could be a lottery pick.

 

And lastly, I doubt Schmidt asks to come here if we don’t make a run and look like an up-and-coming team.

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1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Well said.   Check out the EDM dynasty and how old Messier/Gretzky were even the first time they went to the final.   They had several “lessons” on the way, and their story usually comes back to when they played MTL in the first round in 1981.  They finished with 74 points good for 14th overall, and had to play the still mighty Habs team, fresh off Conference title, division title and 103 points.   It was a coming of age moment, Wayne Gretzky’s and Messiers both for different reasons.   They swept them largely because of WGs heroics but also Messier standing up to Robinson who was starting to take liberties with their young stars and he wasn’t having it at all.   At the time they were not much older then EP and QHs are now,  and us beating St Louis isn’t a lot different either.  Two years later they made it to the final, three more they won their first cup.   EP and QHs would be 23-24 if somehow we manage a similar thing - but the point is - if three of the greatest players ever lace them up, plus four others who were just “average to very good” HHOFers, how many more years will it take us?  Not to mention back then there were 40% less teams around, or that WG turned pro at 17 ... and had already demolished the record books for 6 or so years - about how many Horvat has played now.  
 

Edit:  MTL 70’s dynasty and the NYI dynasty also have similar stories.  Wasn’t until Robinson arrived that they chased the PHI flu out of the dressing room and knocked them off their mantle,  and Potvin changed NYI from a chump to a legitimate team but took awhile for the rest of the parts to gather in.  
 

 

great examples. 

 

It was so much fun watching Petey discover mad/playoff Petey. He had one game near the start where he was looking to the ref's and either he or someone one the team helped him understand to not go that route its up to him and we saw his confidence grow. No way does that happen if the team tanks. 

 

And not every player figures this out. Look at Gaudreau e.g, the guy hasn't figured out the ref's aren't going to give you every call in the playoffs, not by a long shot. 

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On 11/2/2020 at 8:39 AM, janisahockeynut said:

This is strictly a discussion piece to take us further into November.........

 

But, knowing what you know now (today), what would you have done last TDL? Keep in mind, Markstrom, Tanev, Toffoli, Stecher, and Leivo have all signed somewhere else............

Knowing now and then, we were in a play off hunt?

 

We were never going to be sellers. At the time I was never for being a buyer.

 

\The Benning logic was with Boeser injured, Toff was going to get us in to the post season. Logic here; Benning was to asset manage. Re sign Toffoli & trade Boeser? JB was great when he made the trade. A failure when he failed to ink TT, land a D with BB. CDC...  

 

With hindsight Toffoli was injured in the post season and Boeser played?

 

I was proven right all along... :bigblush:

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As far as the TDL, if I had to do it there is not much different now.

Benning had already committed the team to an ALL or Nothing strategy.

Maybe knowing that they would add the extra 8 teams and Toffoli only play 10 games might have changed something.

 

I guess, keep the future intact and going forward, save the prospect and picks. Or use them to move a bad contract, addition by subtraction. Anyway another wasted opportunity which could be costly and hurt the future even more.

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On 11/7/2020 at 3:07 PM, Lazurus said:

As far as the TDL, if I had to do it there is not much different now.

Benning had already committed the team to an ALL or Nothing strategy.

Maybe knowing that they would add the extra 8 teams and Toffoli only play 10 games might have changed something.

 

I guess, keep the future intact and going forward, save the prospect and picks. Or use them to move a bad contract, addition by subtraction. Anyway another wasted opportunity which could be costly and hurt the future even more.

Yes we are surely done in now .... just another season that NHL 18-20 PlayStation GMs added Crosby, McKinnon and Kucherov for Sutter, JV and a second. 

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A lot of what we would've done is in hindsight.

 

At the start of the year I would have started to give Virtanen and Gaudette some PK time. Pair them with veterans. That way they are better players for it now and we have eventual PK replacements for Beagle/Sutter.

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20 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

A lot of what we would've done is in hindsight.

 

At the start of the year I would have started to give Virtanen and Gaudette some PK time. Pair them with veterans. That way they are better players for it now and we have eventual PK replacements for Beagle/Sutter.

I believe Sutter still has a place on this team if he’s willing to accept a much smaller paycheque...also feel he owes it to the team in a way having collected a lot more value then he’s been able to deliver - mostly due to injuries.   Would love to see him at 1.5 x 3 ... eventually replacing Beagle - who I’m not at all upset about ... he’s one of a few guys that doesn’t mind shoving and glove punching after the whistle.. and of course he’s an ace in the dot - plus starts all the time in our zone against the best in the world trying to regain possession.   
 

Edit: and BTW whenever I see your handle it reminds of very early Chelios...who Robinson and co aptly named “plays like a junkyard dog” all 5’11” of him ... willing to do anything and everything for his team and always gave his all which usually included a butt end stick in the ribs or a gloved punch to the face.  

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4 hours ago, IBatch said:

I believe Sutter still has a place on this team if he’s willing to accept a much smaller paycheque...also feel he owes it to the team in a way having collected a lot more value then he’s been able to deliver - mostly due to injuries.   Would love to see him at 1.5 x 3 ... eventually replacing Beagle - who I’m not at all upset about ... he’s one of a few guys that doesn’t mind shoving and glove punching after the whistle.. and of course he’s an ace in the dot - plus starts all the time in our zone against the best in the world trying to regain possession.   
 

Edit: and BTW whenever I see your handle it reminds of very early Chelios...who Robinson and co aptly named “plays like a junkyard dog” all 5’11” of him ... willing to do anything and everything for his team and always gave his all which usually included a butt end stick in the ribs or a gloved punch to the face.  

Sure we could keep Sutter but he'd have to take 1/4 of his current salary in cap. Also we'll still have Beagle after this year. Sutter's not bad as a 4th C but If we're looking to upgrade anywhere in the bottom 6 it would be at the 3rd C spot if Gaudette isn't a right fit. I would like a 3rd C that's responsible defensively and can provide good secondary scoring(score like Gaudette/Virtanen play D like Beagle/Sutter). A solid 3rd C is a little tough to find though.

 

Funny enough, similarly to how you mentioned Chelios, Junkyard Dog was a nickname I got playing basketball/hockey. I was always the one to go to the dirty areas in hockey being a bigger dude and got a lot of rebounds in basketball.  Got punished a lot more in hockey for it though but I got a scar on my chin taking a elbow to the face in basketball.

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2 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Sure we could keep Sutter but he'd have to take 1/4 of his current salary in cap. Also we'll still have Beagle after this year. Sutter's not bad as a 4th C but If we're looking to upgrade anywhere in the bottom 6 it would be at the 3rd C spot if Gaudette isn't a right fit. I would like a 3rd C that's responsible defensively and can provide good secondary scoring(score like Gaudette/Virtanen play D like Beagle/Sutter). A solid 3rd C is a little tough to find though.

 

Funny enough, similarly to how you mentioned Chelios, Junkyard Dog was a nickname I got playing basketball/hockey. I was always the one to go to the dirty areas in hockey being a bigger dude and got a lot of rebounds in basketball.  Got punished a lot more in hockey for it though but I got a scar on my chin taking a elbow to the face in basketball.

Wonder who came up with it and if it was a reference to Chelios (circa late 80’s, already invaluable but before he was in his prime CHI years, played a lot bigger then he really was for sure).   Cool handle anyways!   Yes I was thinking Sutter could stay on as Beagles eventual replacement- but at least then half his current salary if he’s willing ... not sure what he’s going to get after his contract is up but given how a lot of NHL journeyman are just trying to stay employed it’s not outside the realm of possibility that he’s going to take a lot less next time just to stay playing.   One could easily argue early 40’s Thornton offers more at the league minimum.  It’s entirely possible this could be he last year if he can’t stay healthy - at least until Covid blows over.  
 

Scissons is a great example of a responsible bottom six C on a good contract.   Not many of those guys around.   Typically it’s either your prospect pool earning their stripes or guys like Beagle playing that role.  AG had the desire to make it work, wants to be better and work on his game which would be the best possibility for us but he’s definitely not there yet (defensively anyways).    I like Sutter, and we need guys like him and Beagle.   Just not at their cap hit. 

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9 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Wonder who came up with it and if it was a reference to Chelios (circa late 80’s, already invaluable but before he was in his prime CHI years, played a lot bigger then he really was for sure).   Cool handle anyways!   Yes I was thinking Sutter could stay on as Beagles eventual replacement- but at least then half his current salary if he’s willing ... not sure what he’s going to get after his contract is up but given how a lot of NHL journeyman are just trying to stay employed it’s not outside the realm of possibility that he’s going to take a lot less next time just to stay playing.   One could easily argue early 40’s Thornton offers more at the league minimum.  It’s entirely possible this could be he last year if he can’t stay healthy - at least until Covid blows over.  
 

Scissons is a great example of a responsible bottom six C on a good contract.   Not many of those guys around.   Typically it’s either your prospect pool earning their stripes or guys like Beagle playing that role.  AG had the desire to make it work, wants to be better and work on his game which would be the best possibility for us but he’s definitely not there yet (defensively anyways).    I like Sutter, and we need guys like him and Beagle.   Just not at their cap hit. 

 

Yeah we could end up signing him or someone dirt cheap for a bottom 6 C contingency. It wouldn't surprise me given the Covid environment.

 

Right now I don't mind Gaudette even if he doesn't work out at C. He'd still make a good top 9 winger. We have the patience to wait and see how he pans out next year which is nice. 

 

Excited to see how this Hawryluk guy pans out. A year younger than Horvat/Motte. Hoping he can be a more feistier Motte.  Could be a replacement for Roussel. If he pans out we got a decent future with our bottom 6 wingers(Motte/Mac?/Hawryluk?).

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 11/1/2020 at 9:39 PM, janisahockeynut said:

This is strictly a discussion piece to take us further into November.........

 

But, knowing what you know now (today), what would you have done last TDL? Keep in mind, Markstrom, Tanev, Toffoli, Stecher, and Leivo have all signed somewhere else............

 

Personally, as much as I liked the playoffs , I looking back would have traded the lot, for picks.

 

IMO, we could have gotten a haul, and they may have not all landed in Calgary.......................

 

Imagine what 

 

Markstrom at 50% would return

Tanev at 50% would have returned

and Toffoli had returned at 50%

 

IMO, we would have secured some great draft picks , had a top 10 pick of our own, and most likely have traded Eriksson along with some of those picks, later in the year.............

 

Not to mention the freed up cap, that would have allowed us to sign a UFA on a cheap contract

 

In my opinion, it would have been a real pay forward moment!

 

 

I would have recognized what was staring me in the face.

There was no way to re-sign all the contracts coming up

I would have admitted to myself that next year would be a step back.

I would have taken that step and made it a large one and try to finish the rebuild

I would have traded as many UFA's as possible for as many draft picks in this superior drafting class as possible

There is nothing that prevents me from signing a FA even if it the same player just traded so with savings made at the TDL Markstrom, Tanev or whoever because Toffoli would not have been here, there would have been cap space to make more deals and the team would have been probably the same as now anyway.

 

Hindsight, not for me I was advocating to do these things since January when Gear was hired to run the team's finances.And that was before the covid crisis.

 

But Benning could not do that, his job was hanging by a playoff appearance and still is, I doubt he will get many phone calls offering up good players for a bag of pucks now and he can't make any trades and retain valuable assets. No team's want Sutter, Beagle, Roussel, Eriksson, Ferland, Baerstchi, they do want what this team needs to keep around, Miller, Horvat, Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes, Demko are all prime assets that would get a great deal in return.

 

This will be a weird season, the rivalries should become intense, Benning better get Tryamkin signed PDQ because there isn't anyone in Canada that will challenge him more than once and with the heat of a really good rivalry come the heat of emotions.Tryamkin can hurt you without trying and last time here he stood up for teammates even when he didn't understand some of the insults. His wrist shot was clocked around 140 km/hr or around 85 miles/hr

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