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OV hopes to end NHL career in Washington and then Russia

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3 minutes ago, Pears said:

129 games between 2005, 2012-13 and this season. Really makes you wonder where he’d be had those games been played. 

Especially when you consider he'd put up 339 goals in 553 games leading up to that lockout shortened season. He was well on his way to another 50 goal season last season. 

 

Ovi's scored 50 goals or more eight times, but he's also come within five goals of 50 on three other occasions. That's in the modern era, not the one Bossy or Gretzky played in. 

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1 hour ago, Pears said:

129 games between 2005, 2012-13 and this season. Really makes you wonder where he’d be had those games been played. 

Lets not forget Jagr.  If the lockout seasons never occurred and he stayed in the NHL instead of going off to Europe during his prime, he could have probably gotten another 120-150 goals.... putting him around Gretzky's record and being the only other player to score 2000 points.  

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5 hours ago, Lancaster said:

Lets not forget Jagr.  If the lockout seasons never occurred and he stayed in the NHL instead of going off to Europe during his prime, he could have probably gotten another 120-150 goals.... putting him around Gretzky's record and being the only other player to score 2000 points.  

If Mario Lemieux didn't have cancer, and had to take 3 seasons off. Pretty sure he'd easily have over 2000 points. Wayne has so many records if he loses a couple of them it won't matter. 

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17 hours ago, Rubik said:

class act. I like it when people think like that. I didn't like him when he was younger, but he matured a lot... not everybody does though.

 

do you mean the 2017-18 Capitals? you know, when they actually won the cup... :P

Felt the same about Jagr early in his career. 

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11 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Ovechkin>>>McDiver.  Ovechkin plays tougher, is more physical, is consistent as hell with insane durability for the style he brings, and is an actual leader in the room.  Plus he has a cup, which McNugget won't ever get until he goes to an actual NHL team and starts being a team player.

 

Ovechkin doesn't get nearly the respect he deserves.

Not sure which you'd be pulling for in the Olympics or Canada Cup type tourney ?

Let's Not forget how many times Ovi team was favoured to win a Cup (33 yrs old) and tournaments and he was blamed as not being a leader

 

I think that if Dale Hawerchuk could say this about McDavid “He skates like Bobby Orr. He has the vision of Wayne Gretzky. And he handles the puck like Mario Lemieux.” and his peers vote him the best player, there is no need to belittle his talent. 

Maybe just appreciate being able to witness both of their greatness and excitement they bring to the game as a fan of hockey

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1 hour ago, ba;;isticsports said:

Not sure which you'd be pulling for in the Olympics or Canada Cup type tourney?

Not relevant, and you're barking up the wrong tree altogether as I've personally traveled overseas to support Team Canada.  People would have a lot more respect for Ovechkin if he was born in Kingston though.

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4 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Not relevant, and you're barking up the wrong tree altogether as I've personally traveled overseas to support Team Canada.  People would have a lot more respect for Ovechkin if he was born in Kingston though.

No barking up any tree, just stating it is okay to appreciate both, without slamming another, The game is better with both of them in it

I think that people do respect Ovi now more than ever before, he changed peoples perception of him, much  like George Forman did as well from when he was younger too

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23 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Ovechkin>>>McDiver.  Ovechkin plays tougher, is more physical, is consistent as hell with insane durability for the style he brings, and is an actual leader in the room.  Plus he has a cup, which McNugget won't ever get until he goes to an actual NHL team and starts being a team player.

 

Ovechkin doesn't get nearly the respect he deserves.

McDiver? what the &^@# is this... stay with the Ovechin topic.  

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On 11/5/2020 at 10:50 PM, Pears said:

129 games between 2005, 2012-13 and this season. Really makes you wonder where he’d be had those games been played. 

At least Ovechkin has been insanely durable to compensate for the lockouts and shortened seasons. He's only missed 32 career games (an average of 2 games every season). Dude is a machine in more ways than one.

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On 11/6/2020 at 1:38 AM, Coconuts said:

McDavid like? Gonna have to disagree with you there. There's no question that McDavid has talent, but he's nowhere near the pure goalscorer Ovi is and has been. 

 

McDavid's a helluva player, but he's a different player whereas Ovi's always been about goals. He's arguably the greatest goalscorer of all time regardless of whether he breaks Gretsky's record or not. 

I’d argue Bossy and Gretzky are better...both players didn’t rely on shot quantities to score goals - Brett Hull and Ovi are similar talents.    Ovi still playing great at 35 is something though, Gretzky goal scoring dried up around then, but the way he scored goals - faking goalie’s and picking corners, or stick handling or whatever- was at another level entirely for a decade or so.    Even if you adjust 10% for save percentage changes.    Bossy GPG won’t likely ever be broken.   

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9 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Just grinds my gears to see Ovi put at a level below given the career he's had.  I have him in the echelon right below Gretzky, Orr, and Mario, and about equal to Howe, Richard, Crosby.

Me too...except add Bossy to that list.   Maybe Hull, father and son Hull’s.   
 

Gretzky, Orr, Mario...Howe and Ovi are similar for sure, both extremely durable - if Ovi plays as well as Howe did when he was 40, that would be his career season (no other superstar, star or anyone actually, had a career season at 40, but if anyone could do it - maybe Ovi can).   Howe and Ovi are excellent comparable’s really - for a decade or so it was Richard and Howe as the two greatest ever - much like Crosby and Ovi have been for this generation of fans, Mario and WG for the previous ones.   
 

My only thing about Ovi is he relies heavily on shots.   Leading the league in them most of his career...not as exciting to watch as say Bure was - to me him and Brett Hull are good comparable’s except Hulls peak wasn’t as long.   And before WG came along most kids wanted to grow up and be Esposito, who for five or six years was about as dominant as any five year period for any player ever other then the top three.   
 

If you were to make an all-time four line team, Ovi would be on most teams top L wing spot.   All-time there haven’t been many Hart or Pearson/Lyndsay winners from that side - at this point Robataille and Lyndsay himself would take a back seat to Ovi, the best Left winger already in the history of the game...

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31 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I’d argue Bossy and Gretzky are better...both players didn’t rely on shot quantities to score goals - Brett Hull and Ovi are similar talents.    Ovi still playing great at 35 is something though, Gretzky goal scoring dried up around then, but the way he scored goals - faking goalie’s and picking corners, or stick handling or whatever- was at another level entirely for a decade or so.    Even if you adjust 10% for save percentage changes.    Bossy GPG won’t likely ever be broken.   

And that's fine, arguing the best when it comes to sports is rarely a consensus. I mean, even Wayne isn't a consensus. You've got people who will argue Mario til they die. 

 

Era's are tough to compare, but him playing in the modern era as compared to Gretzky and Bossy isn't meant so much as a slight to either player as a "holy crap Ovi". Goalies are better than they ever were, so are D, arguably coaches, the way guys train and are conditioned. Ovi's obviously benefited as well fro these things as an individual player, but he's playing against arguably tougher competition. The key word again, being arguably. The players back then were still the best in the world in their day, and we've got plenty of legends to look back on. 

 

Despite all that, yeah, Bossy won't be caught. What he did was nuts. 

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On 11/6/2020 at 1:50 AM, Pears said:

129 games between 2005, 2012-13 and this season. Really makes you wonder where he’d be had those games been played. 

A lot of guys saw their stats take a hit that played through all three lockouts ... like losing two full years, and for quite a few it was during their prime - or ended their career’s.   WG was on pace for another 120 ish points the year Lindros won the Hart (95?), and was still in his late prime which was like regular folks peak prime.   Still managed two consecutive 90 point seasons before his last one where he finally came down to earth - plus of course the dead puck era wasn’t kind to anyone.   
 

Ovi hasn’t had to play through any of the stuff some others did, no red line etc - but it wouldn’t have mattered- in fact he would have excelled no matter when he played - built like a freight train and not afraid to use it.   Howe is for sure his best comparable, he just plays the other wing.   Would love to see him play in the NHL until he’s 40, and think if he does he will walk away as the leagues all-time leading goal scorer.   Is he the best goal scorer?  Maybe.    I’d have him in the top five as of right now if he never played another game...in this order:

 

1. Wayne Gretzky.   Have an old tape called Gretzky’s top 50 goals from the very early 90’s...my favourite is probably watching him snap a puck off a face-off, through five bodies and the goalie top corner.    And there were 49 other ones that were just as impressive.   Nobody ever - ever - was better at faking a goalie from 20-30 feet out with a feinted shot, moved the goalie one way, then blasted it post and in or five hole or glove hand or wherever.   Just for fun watch some of his goals.    And of course was great and dekes too.

 

2. Mario.   Almost would say 1a and 1b.   Mario in his prime is the only other player I’ve seen match WG in his prime.  Both made hyperbole seems understated as it applies to their goal scoring and playmaking abilities.   Off the charts.   The difference between the two players was he went right into the thick of it and scored half his goals with someone draped all over him.   Don’t believe me?  Go watch his highlights.  Incredible.

 

3.  Bossy.   For any player who played 800-900 games...Nobody but the above two guys scored more goals them him over that span.  Owns the goals per game record at .75, retired before any regression.   WG over the same many games was quite a bit better...just goes to show how awesome all three of these guys were.   Elite snipers ... wow what a shot.

 

4.  Ovi.   This is where he should be right now, ahead of both Hulls.  Ahead of Espo and Richard.  And Howe.   
 

5.  Bure.   Still my favourite player to watch on this list.   The best goal scorer from start to finish during his era.. Mario and Jagr have a case too - but his speed was just too exciting to deny.   On one knee in the middle of the dead puck era - he was still a dominant force.   In today’s game with no redline, he’d score 70 easily each year.    He’d be higher on the list if it wasn’t for games played. 
 

Honourable mentions:

 

Early 70’s Espo...before Wayne Gretzky kids played street hockey pretending they were Phil....I’m old enough to remember that.

 

Rocket.   How didn’t he make this list?  Well I guess I’m not that old, and preferred to see Bure make the list ha ha.   That said he’d be just as good a swap. 
 

Hull Sr.   Ok WHA and the NHL had to play each other in a court settlement...guess what?  The WHA was absolutely legit.   Just as good.   Add his goals from there and his NHL goals what do you have?  913...in about the exact same number of games as WG played.   Often overlooked.  And he was clocked at 120mph slap shot, and still considered one of the top ten fastest skaters all-time.    He was an animal.

 

Hull Jr.   What he did when he won the Hart was simply incredible.  Only WG and Mario managed a similar season..the Hull and Oats show was the best one in the world for a couple years.   After that it was just down to earth 50 goal seasons.   Over a five year period few players scored as often as he did, 339 times ... think about that for a minute..   One of the most elite and accurate shots I’ve ever seen.    The dead puck era for sure took some shine off.   Otherwise he’d be in the top five.  

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27 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

And that's fine, arguing the best when it comes to sports is rarely a consensus. I mean, even Wayne isn't a consensus. You've got people who will argue Mario til they die. 

 

Era's are tough to compare, but him playing in the modern era as compared to Gretzky and Bossy isn't meant so much as a slight to either player as a "holy crap Ovi". Goalies are better than they ever were, so are D, arguably coaches, the way guys train and are conditioned. Ovi's obviously benefited as well fro these things as an individual player, but he's playing against arguably tougher competition. The key word again, being arguably. The players back then were still the best in the world in their day, and we've got plenty of legends to look back on. 

 

Despite all that, yeah, Bossy won't be caught. What he did was nuts. 

Fortunately you can go all the way back until when Shore was patrolling the blue line and compare stars from different eras just using logic.   If WG at 35 can outproduce the next crop of stars in their peak prime that played until 2010+, or Jagr or Yzerman or whomever it’s pretty easy to match up who was better era too era.  Iginla did play against these guys - and was arguably the best in the 2000’s... or if you prefer Lidstrom couldn’t win a Norris until he was 30 and Borque, Coffey, Chelios, Mcinnis etc were almost or already done.   If you weren’t around in the 80’s ... well you wouldn’t know that weight training and fitness were a massive thing during that period.   Just go look at some of the athletes without shirts on from that day - most of them were shredded (ripped)..  so sorry don’t buy too much into this idea that athletes are in way better shape now.   Also the league was smaller.   21 teams doesn’t offer nearly as many jobs as 32 does.   Imagine how good the league would be now if we removed all the fourth liners?  
 

Also imagine what those guys back then could do with no red line?  WG and Mario’s stats would be way better even if goaltending was on par.   And on goaltending.   Add leather pads to these guys and half the protection and make them stand up and see how they do.   Those goalies were incredible athletes in top shape too.   The butterfly (Roy) was a game changer - as was bigger and lighter equipment and plus size goalies.  Better?  Nah.   Just better systems.   Vernon all 5’7” of him against Markstrom and 6’6” of him with space age equipment... 

 

And on that.  If what is the percentage  difference between .895 and .910 anyways?   Ten percent would take .895 to .9845. ... people don’t get math.   Yes the 70-80’s were high scoring.   But maybe it was because those guys were a lot better then we have now.   Jagr and Iginla played in the 90’s, 2000’s and 2010’s after all.   
 

Personally I feel the rule changes have helped the game a lot.   But can’t help but wonder if under the same rules with a 21 team league if the product would rival what is now referred to as the “golden era” of the NHL which was the late 70’s to 1995.    Maybe the players were way better back then.   And maybe if right now we had a 21 league no cap league it would rival that.   But it doesn’t and it can’t.   I doubt any fan who wasn’t around for a much rougher and tougher league would say now is better.  It’s not. 
 

And you can compare any new star with and old star and trace it back.   Yes goalies are 5% more efficient now.  Whoophie.  I’m sure they’d be just as good back then if they dropped to the ice every time a person was in a shooting position too.  After all 9 out of 10 shots were scored along the ice back then.    
 

And if we want to go back further Howe was once analyzed by the best sports dr in the business at the time - and after checking his body mass, conditioning etc said that he was above the level of a world champion boxer.   Yes the fourth line isn’t full of goons/enforcers anymore, yes the game is faster.   Yes the goalies are bigger then ever.   No the current NHLers would stand a chance against the best of the 80-90’s. 

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