Safe to say Hughes is on the same level as Dahlin now?

[GB5]

This is kind of an apples and oranges discussion isn't it?

 

Hughes, Dahlin and Makar are all great players in their own right. Hard to say who is better but they all are great players.

[D.B Cooper]

19 hours ago, Crabby said:

Idk about that. Maybe not as hard? ..

Yeah. So RD’s is better. Like I said. 

 

19 hours ago, Crabby said:

 

Dmen are suppose to get puck on the net and look for deflections and I think Quinn is as good at that as the best of them, and his elite skating ability allows him easier access to good shooting lanes. Accurate>Hardest shot imho

Hedman had a 9 goal rookie season, and puts up points as well.  
It’s ok to say someone has some better attributes than certain Canucks.   It doesn’t take away from our player. 

19 hours ago, Crabby said:

 

I cant think of anything Quinn isn't good at either,

Heavy shots.  Checking. Clearing the net. 
 

19 hours ago, Crabby said:

 

and feel he is already top 10 and could most defiently see him being top 3, or even #1 in a few years. I see 2+ future Norris trophies for him.

Sure.  Maybe

[MoneypuckOverlord]

Makar and Hughes is on another level of Dhalin.  both are far more dynamic.  Dhalin has the height but he's struggled defensively in his first year.  2nd year massive improvement but he was still not utizlied as a top pairing dman. 

[Junkyard Dog]

1 hour ago, MoneypuckOverlord said:

Makar and Hughes is on another level of Dhalin.  both are far more dynamic.  Dhalin has the height but he's struggled defensively in his first year.  2nd year massive improvement but he was still not utizlied as a top pairing dman. 

That could change in the future. Dahlin has a higher ceiling than Makar/Hughes. Dahlin was producing at a similar rate(per 60) as Hughes last year despite playing on a worse team. I also wouldn't say they're both far more dynamic than Dahlin either.

 

An advantage Makar/Hughes will always have is handling the puck in tight and being harder to check. That's how being small helps if you can skate and have good hands. Just like Barzal/P.Kane. It's a big reason why their possession numbers are so good.  If Dahlin continues to improve at D though he'll likely be the better player overall while still producing at a high rate. Hughes and Makar are limited with their size, their skating helps but it can only help so much. Size helps you defensively, especially if you can skate(and have smarts) which is what Dahlin has.

 

It'll take a few years to see how it all unfolds though. Hopefully Buffalo can climb out of disparity. Eichel was able to reach his potential there so there's hope for Dahlin. Hate to see a talent like Dahlin go to waste.

 

Should be exciting to watch.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Junkyard Dog

[Jack in the box]

 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Gassy Jack

[Baratheon]

I think this thread will disappear and then be bumped later.  Probably several times.

 

For now I answered yes to both but it wouldn't surprise me at all if Dahlin took a big step forward in his game and changed the discussion.

[IBatch]

Who’s better?

 

Potvin, Coffey, Borque, Lidstrom or Larry Robinson? 

 

If I could only have one I’d take Potvin.   If I could pick two it would be much harder.   Going with the all around best player first is usually the best choice.   Then it becomes more of a team thing.   Borque and Lidstrom were great right until they retired but Coffey’s peak is hard to ignore, plus he proved he was great no matter where he played.  Robinson was very quick for a big man and had skills galore to match his impressive physical style.   Hedman would be a good comparable in today’s game - except think Hedman with fists like Brashear. 
 

Hopefully one day, at least one of these guys will join some of the other tier HHOFers out there, like Housley, Pronger, Niedermayer, etc.   I also hope that only 30 EK can have a second half of his career that’s almost as good as his first half - if so he will be the first D to break 1000 career points in some time.  
 

Potvin’s 15 years might have been as good as any defenseman ever.   Back then 20 year olds were drafted - and he completely changed the NYI his first season and never looked back.   Always in the discussion for the Norris with some very stiff competition with Orr still around, plus Park and Larry Robinson and later the superstars of the mid 80’s...

 

Harvey and Shore were way before my time but both were the best at it for a very long time.   Hockey historians would have Shore with ten plus Norris trophies to go with his multiple Harts had they existed back then.   Also with he usually ranks pretty high whenever a good source does that sort of thing.  
 

Wonder where guys like Keith, Weber, Chara and Burns will end up later ... the current old dogs ...  sure the HHOF will eventually include all four of them.   Just happy to see such an amazing group of D’s come into the league close to the same time again ..

[Baggins]

On 11/19/2020 at 4:50 PM, IBatch said:

Who’s better?

 

Potvin, Coffey, Borque, Lidstrom or Larry Robinson? 

 

If I could only have one I’d take Potvin.   If I could pick two it would be much harder.   Going with the all around best player first is usually the best choice.   Then it becomes more of a team thing.   Borque and Lidstrom were great right until they retired but Coffey’s peak is hard to ignore, plus he proved he was great no matter where he played.  Robinson was very quick for a big man and had skills galore to match his impressive physical style.   Hedman would be a good comparable in today’s game - except think Hedman with fists like Brashear. 
 

Hopefully one day, at least one of these guys will join some of the other tier HHOFers out there, like Housley, Pronger, Niedermayer, etc.   I also hope that only 30 EK can have a second half of his career that’s almost as good as his first half - if so he will be the first D to break 1000 career points in some time.  
 

Potvin’s 15 years might have been as good as any defenseman ever.   Back then 20 year olds were drafted - and he completely changed the NYI his first season and never looked back.   Always in the discussion for the Norris with some very stiff competition with Orr still around, plus Park and Larry Robinson and later the superstars of the mid 80’s...

 

Harvey and Shore were way before my time but both were the best at it for a very long time.   Hockey historians would have Shore with ten plus Norris trophies to go with his multiple Harts had they existed back then.   Also with he usually ranks pretty high whenever a good source does that sort of thing.  
 

Wonder where guys like Keith, Weber, Chara and Burns will end up later ... the current old dogs ...  sure the HHOF will eventually include all four of them.   Just happy to see such an amazing group of D’s come into the league close to the same time again ..

I agree with you. Although I'd go with Bourque. Loved both Bourque and Potvin but having watched both when playing in Vancouver Bourque really blew me away a little more. As to Hughes versus Dahlin, I don't really care. Both are going to be elite d-men in this league for years to come. Much like Bourque versus Potvin, I'm absolutely thrilled to have one of them regardless of which is perceived to be better.

[warrchief]

On 11/11/2020 at 12:07 PM, khay said:

Right now, yes. The three players, Dahlin, Hughes, and Makar are all on the same tier.

 

But IMO, Dahlin has the potential to be at another tier on his own in 5 years or so.

 

 

 

 

 

I'd add Heiskanen to that small list.

[MikeyD]

On 11/11/2020 at 1:58 PM, -AJ- said:

I'm not sure the quickness to one's prime is a great measure of future success, but regardless, I do agree with much of this. I've always been extremely hesitant to use the term generational, as I reserve it for only the very best, but both Hughes and Makar touched nearly uncharted territory as rookie defensemen last year. I am, however, curious to see if we're just entering a new era of offensive defensemen (akin to the offensive boom of the late 60s) or if Makar and Hughes are alone in their feats.

I wondered that too but this years' draft I think would state otherwise. A really weak year for offensive defensemen in my opinion. Drysdale is the only one capable of putting up huge numbers but he does this at the cost of defense, unlike Makar and Hughes. 

[IBatch]

On 11/11/2020 at 9:12 PM, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I wonder what it would take.  The list of defensemen who have scored 100 points is as short as the list of forwards who have scored 150.

Just reviewing some of this stuff from last month... yeah 100 seems like an impossible thing, we’d need a generational game changer like Orr or Coffey to come into the NHL again, AND land on a decent-good team.   Others managed it too (Potvin, Leetch) but it’s a tiny list.   Lidstrom didn’t even get into the top 50 most productive seasons ever ...it also says something about EK (who has a few in their - top 50), playing on mediocre Ottawa teams and leading his team in scoring year after year - as well as joining Orr, Potvin and Coffey as the only other players in NHL history to be top ten three times...Cook “accidentally on purpose” cutting his Achilles’ tendon in half probably halted what could have been a very special “generational” career for him.   On a better or at least equal team now .... and should be in his prime prime right now and for the next 3 maybe 4 years.   Most excellent D’s play their best hockey 28-34.   Burns did.   Carlson is now.    IF he’s truly 100%, I wonder if we will see a resurgence back to near or the top of the pile from him, and hope he does (as long as they don’t beat us ha ha).  
 

I pray expansion is over.   32 teams really spreads the talent around a lot more then 12-21 teams.   Expansion did play a role in the 80’s high scoring...but so did Gretzky, Coffey, Mario, Stastny, Hawerchuk, Yzerman et al.    Still managed fine in the dead puck era playing against the future stars of the 2000’s right?   Coffey on pace for a 100 point season in 95, his 15th season case in point.   
 

QHs is exceptional for today’s game, hope he adds goal scoring to his repertoire and think he will.   One game against Vegas they couldn’t contain him and we won.   Do think we need a big nasty on our fourth line or third pairing to keep teams honest (for EP too), barring injuries can see QHs having a career similar to Ovi - as in absolutely feasting on the PP and if it’s long enough 1000 points.   Makar and Heiskanen too.   Doubt we will ever see that much talent in the league again (80’s), at least in my lifetime, but without further expansion eventually thing’s will catch up and guys currently on the fourth lines will be in the AHL, third liners on the fourth etc.  
 

Some of those 80’s teams sent many guys to the all-star game for a reason.   EDM sent 10 one year.   Goalies didn’t have a chance against them ... and save percentage’s were only 3.5% or so better overall.    To me that’s the biggest difference today with the cap - teams can’t load up like they used to before salary disclosure even... 5/7 core guys and that’s it. 

[IBatch]

On 11/11/2020 at 3:58 PM, -AJ- said:

I'm not sure the quickness to one's prime is a great measure of future success, but regardless, I do agree with much of this. I've always been extremely hesitant to use the term generational, as I reserve it for only the very best, but both Hughes and Makar touched nearly uncharted territory as rookie defensemen last year. I am, however, curious to see if we're just entering a new era of offensive defensemen (akin to the offensive boom of the late 60s) or if Makar and Hughes are alone in their feats.

Bingo.   Good call AJ.   I too believe things are cyclical, all decades are definitely not created equal.   Expansion and the WHA was a game changer.   Each decade after including the 70’s had a different flavour with each decade blending a bit of flavours too.  Rough and tumble 70’s, Uber tough and gloriously violent remained right into the early 90’s...instigator and bench clearing brawls eventually changed things.   Imagine if anyone could just grab EP and rag doll him (or QHs for that matter), and then just go sit in the box for five minutes.   How effective would they be after that?   
 

The 80’s fire wagon hockey peaked - but it was also already there in the 70’s - aka the blending, and continued right into 93-94.   And the clutching and grabbing crept into the game in the late 80’s and just got worse and worse.  The 90’s had two distinctive parts.   Another crop of fabulous players in Lindros, Sundin, Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Bure, Federov, Lidstrom, Leetch, Modano, Mogilny, Selanne etc - got a taste of fire wagon hockey but it didn’t last long unfortunately.   Of course the butterfly changed as did size of goalies and equipment... but as I keep pointing out it was only a few percentage points.   The trap and legal holding etc created an entire different game, not the leagues brightest hour.

 

The early 2000’s the stars from the mid 80’s were almost done but still doing it (Yzerman, Francis,Chelios etc) but most of them were done.   The stars of the 90’s still managed fine for the most part but several were also almost done (Bure,Lindros).    Personally I feel a massive amount of talent left the league up to and around the lockout 2004ish.   Which lead to a pretty flavourless and boring decade.  
 

Fortunately things picked up near the end with Crosby, Kane, Ovi, Toews, Malkin etc joining the league - plus a bevy of excellent D’s over a short period of time - Burns, Keith, Doughty, EK, Weber, Bouwmeester, Phanuef, Suter, Byfuglien, Carlson and in 2009, Hedman.   
 

Which brings back to the cyclic comment.   It seems like every now and then (late 70’s early 80’s, mid - late 2000’s) a very deep and talented group of D’s comes into the league seemingly all at once.   Currently we have Heiskanen, Dahlin, Hughes and Makar...but we also have Ty Smith, Dobson, Boqvist, Bouchard etc in the wings, all of which have varying degrees of slam dunk in them and very highly ranked/touted prospects.   Some don’t work out of course (There was talk of who was the better pick - Doughty or Bogasian, same as we recently had with Dobson or Bouchard), and some come out of the woodwork and blow everyone away - EK for example.  
 

It’s definitely an exciting time to be a fan.  And the 2010’s also had its own “flavour” as well.   No center line and very little obstruction has put this game back on track and into the skilled players hands - which we had before with the use proper use of enforcers in the 80’s (the ones that could actually play hockey too like Williams, Probert and McSorely) - the league had actually finally managed to do a great job of regulating goons out of the game, and they won’t ever be back.   IMO we’ve entered a new golden era of hockey for elite level talent to shine.    We’ve seen that the last couple of years given how many incredibly talented guys have come in and are still here from the last group.  Scoring is up - and save percentages are creeping down again.  Get enough talent together and that’s also cyclic,  Imagine that.  Sorry for the wall of text.   Really found your post insightful and already felt the same - wanted to extrapolate. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by IBatch

[kloubek]

Hughes was better as soon as he stepped on NHL ice. Maker too.

[J-P]

If I were to guess I'd say in a few years Dahlin will be dominant on both O and D and the ranking will be:

 

1) Dahlin

2) QH

3) Makar

 

I do think that regardless of this, the things QH brings are more vital to the Canucks than what the other players bring. That's not an unimportant part of this discussion. I believe the things Dahlin will provide for the Sabres that QH can't can be solved by committee, while being the dynamo offensively that QH is is more important to our team both short term and long term.

[Dats hockey]

Safe to say Hughes has always been on another level because of his hockey IQ and Skating.

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, Dats hockey said:

Safe to say Hughes has always been on another level because of his hockey IQ and Skating.

Housley is now becoming a pretty good comp.   QHs is shooting the puck more too, some of those are going to start finding the back of the net more often.   His shot re-direction by Pearson was brilliant (by both players).   Is he leading the league in assists yet?   If he keeps it up, and manages to get his plus minus around zero or a little above - his first Norris trophy is coming a lot faster then anyone anticipated.    Honestly like Housley felt the best he could manage is a perrenial top five sort of guy.   His game requires out scoring the opposition, EK in his prime did that but also was a game changer and could manage very well on both sides of the puck - that part of his game needs a lot of improvement before he will win any hardware.   He's a special player - that much is for sure.  

[Provost]

I think it is too tough to compare them as they are too different.

 

Dahlin is a better all around D, he could be Hedman like as he develops.  I think of Hughes more like an Erik Karlsson/Phil Housely  at their prime.... highly offensive oriented guys who are average defensively.

 

That isn’t trying to undersell offensive D, heck Hughes had decent defensive numbers last year mainly because our side always kept control of the puck most of the time when he was on the ice.

 

Given the choice of a re-do today... I still pick Dahlin over Hughes, but am glad we have someone in that conversation because we have never had that.  My all time favourite Canucks have mostly been D... Ohlund, Lumme, Salo... Hughes has a ceiling so far above those guys it is amazing to consider.  Having a guy who will likely be getting a lot of Norris votes most years in the next decade is great...

Edited February 19, 2021 by Provost

[Johnny Torts]

Hughes and Makar over Dahlin

[Junkyard Dog]

Thread was way too early back then and it is still way too early now.

[appleboy]

Hughes and Maker  I think it is these two who will be on top of the league for the next few years. I do not feel Dahlin is at the same level . 

 

As a home it is Hughes all the way .