Best All-Round Defenseman Round 6

[King Heffy]

12 minutes ago, Herberts Vasiljevs said:

Robinson 100%. He should be in everyones top-5. 

Robison and Potvin both should be off the board already.  Voting for Robinson, nominating Fetisov.

[Herberts Vasiljevs]

8 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Robison and Potvin both should be off the board already.  Voting for Robinson, nominating Fetisov.

1. Robinson

2. Potvin

3. Shore

4. MacInnis

[J.I.A.H.N]

5 hours ago, -AJ- said:

One of the things about these lists is I often end up getting stuck voting for a guy high up on my list and miss arguing for others I liked. Potvin is a good example, as I think he might sometimes be underrated, but I can't vote for him over Shore, so I never get a chance to vote for Potvin and defend him (assuming he wins this round).

I think by the time his career is over Hedman is going to be up there too.

 

The trouble with Hedman is that he is so quiet, while dominating, it just a thud, then turn over, then headman the puck...he just does it at such a consistent level.

You never notice him, until you look at the stat sheet..................and I am not meaning as a player, but as a super star..............IMO, he is probably the most dominant Dman

in the game today, in all categories........just does it so quietly

 

He is kind of like Lindstrom in that regard.........but if I was pick Dmen, I would probably pick him first, today!

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, HomeBrew said:

Disagree. When there is a lot less to be relative towards, it's seems less significant imo. We are talking about a 100 year difference here. In my mind, it's equivalent to being a high school hero.

So most on this site have been around to watch Lidstrom, a fairly recent player who was almost universally ranked two. Yet he couldn’t win a Norris until Leetch, Bourque, Coffey, Chelios and MacInnis were long in the tooth or almost done.   Orr would have continued his reign if it wasn’t for his  knee’s issue - but Potvin and Robinson were there (and Park) to take up the slack and it’s not like they were chumps later in their career’s against Bourque, Coffey and Chelios etc.  It’s naive to think the game is only about speed and that athletes are that much better today.   Even with SP evened out, it wasn’t that much of a difference - and ask any current goalie today to play standing up with smaller leather equipment that gained as much as 30lbs of water weight over a game and don’t expect they’d do any better - especially if you make the nets bigger to make up for the size difference ... 

 

Howe scored how many points his last season at over 50?   You can trace it all the way back if you like.   Watching grainy footage doesn’t do it much Justice.   Just for fun go and watch some Robinson footage/highlights.   Maybe, just maybe the players were so good back then because there wasn’t so many teams. 
 

And finally 100 years ago players had their sweaters and skates.   I wonder what EP and QHs would look like with no pads...assumptions.  I will take those that were around for its word for it - Shore was voted 10th best all-time in 1998 (any position)  by those that were alive to see him play still.   Sure one day you will be singing Bure’s praises - or if your too young say Crosby’s praises to some folks when your much older say in 2060 or so.  And they will be saying the same thing that you are now.  

Edited November 27, 2020 by IBatch

[IBatch]

48 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Robison and Potvin both should be off the board already.  Voting for Robinson, nominating Fetisov.

Yep.    That’s ok.  Still fun ... personally after Orr there is a small group at an entirely different level then the rest and both Potvin and Robinson are in that range.  

[Nave]

Robinson. Although I was very close to voting for Potvin. Would be okay with either winning this round.
While Potvin was more offensive along with being a rugged body checker, Robinson was just so steady, and mobile for his size. 

[HomeBrew]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

So most on this site have been around to watch Lidstrom, a fairly recent player who was almost universally ranked two. Yet he couldn’t win a Norris until Leetch, Bourque, Coffey, Chelios and MacInnis were long in the tooth or almost done.   Orr would have continued his reign if it wasn’t for his  knee’s issue - but Potvin and Robinson were there (and Park) to take up the slack and it’s not like they were chumps later in their career’s against Bourque, Coffey and Chelios etc.  It’s naive to think the game is only about speed and that athletes are that much better today.   Even with SP evened out, it wasn’t that much of a difference - and ask any current goalie today to play standing up with smaller leather equipment that gained as much as 30lbs of water weight over a game and don’t expect they’d do any better - especially if you make the nets bigger to make up for the size difference ... 

 

Howe scored how many points his last season at over 50?   You can trace it all the way back if you like.   Watching grainy footage doesn’t do it much Justice.   Just for fun go and watch some Robinson footage/highlights.   Maybe, just maybe the players were so good back then because there wasn’t so many teams. 
 

And finally 100 years ago players had their sweaters and skates.   I wonder what EP and QHs would look like with no pads...assumptions.  I will take those that were around for its word for it - Shore was voted 10th best all-time in 1998 (any position)  by those that were alive to see him play still.   Sure one day you will be singing Bure’s praises - or if your too young say Crosby’s praises to some folks when your much older say in 2060 or so.  And they will be saying the same thing that you are now.  

I’m not saying that players are just simply better relatively as time has gone (note that I voted Potvin the last two rounds). What I am inferring is that not all decades of hockey are created equal. Some have far more gifted players, and thus more relative competition, than others. I believe we are about enter another era of great defensemen with already established D such as Hedman, Carlson and Josi, but also a plethora of young star defence including Hughes, Makar, Heiskanen, Dahlen, etc. that are about to change the game.

 

Lidstrom didn’t revolutionize the game the way some other had, I also feel that he is over rated. He was great. Don’t get me wrong, but he wasn’t THAT great. He dominated the defensive awards in an era where there was a gluttony of mediocre defensemen. His only competition was a second half of their careers Niedermeyer and Pronger. Take 07-08 for example: his best competition (based on top Norris award voting) included Dan Boyle (4), Kimmo Timonen (5), Dion Phaneuf (6), Sergei Conchar (7)... etc. Tom Preissing and even Keith frickin Carney were even in the top 20. 
 

For what it’s worth, hockey didn’t even really matter until 1970 anyways. 

Edited November 27, 2020 by HomeBrew

[Canuck Surfer]

Potvin! 

 

I wont argue if Robinson wins.

 

As a lad, Randy Carlisle was a customer of mine in Winnipeg. Super nice dude! Amazing, and a v good hockey player.

 

Cannot say I would rather play against him instead of of Hedman if I was a forward? Its not the same scale.   

 

Have to nominate Hedman being objective!

[IBatch]

6 hours ago, HomeBrew said:

I’m not saying that players are just simply better relatively as time has gone (note that I voted Potvin the last two rounds). What I am inferring is that not all decades of hockey are created equal. Some have far more gifted players, and thus more relative competition, than others. I believe we are about enter another era of great defensemen with already established D such as Hedman, Carlson and Josi, but also a plethora of young star defence including Hughes, Makar, Heiskanen, Dahlen, etc. that are about to change the game.

 

Lidstrom didn’t revolutionize the game the way some other had, I also feel that he is over rated. He was great. Don’t get me wrong, but he wasn’t THAT great. He dominated the defensive awards in an era where there was a gluttony of mediocre defensemen. His only competition was a second half of their careers Niedermeyer and Pronger. Take 07-08 for example: his best competition (based on top Norris award voting) included Dan Boyle (4), Kimmo Timonen (5), Dion Phaneuf (6), Sergei Conchar (7)... etc. Tom Preissing and even Keith frickin Carney were even in the top 20. 
 

For what it’s worth, hockey didn’t even really matter until 1970 anyways. 
 

Yes all decades weren’t created equal...and I’ve been beating that bush for awhile on the lack of truly high-end D’s in the 2000’s... it’s nice to see what looks like full circle and another generation of high skilled D’s come in at one time (have compared it Bourque and the early 80’s a little - Bourque, Coffey, Housley, Murphy) but we will have to wait and see at least a year or so to find out more.   The fact they came in and were that good right away is encouraging for sure...sure would be neat to see a D get over 90 points again. 

[Kevin Biestra]

5 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Potvin! 

 

I wont argue if Robinson wins.

 

As a lad, Randy Carlisle was a customer of mine in Winnipeg. Super nice dude! Amazing, and a v good hockey player.

 

Cannot say I would rather play against him instead of of Hedman if I was a forward? Its not the same scale.   

 

Have to nominate Hedman being objective!

 

We talking about Belinda's older brother?

 

Was there sentimentality involved in nominating Randy Carlyle?  Maybe yes...  But the guy was a Norris Trophy winner that always played for bad teams and like J.C. Tremblay who I also named earlier, deserves substantially more HOF consideration than he gets.

 

If he had been on the Oilers, I think he would have been the 3rd defenseman in NHL history to score 100 points.

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[Silky mitts]

For the guys saying robinson how old are you guys? Just curious, a lot of us are too young to have even seen him and a lot of others on this list. I am 28 btw.

[Kevin Biestra]

1 hour ago, Silky mitts said:

For the guys saying robinson how old are you guys? Just curious, a lot of us are too young to have even seen him and a lot of others on this list. I am 28 btw.

 

To be fair, Robinson was still playing four years after Denis Potvin retired.  He was on the Kings with Gretzky, the year right before they went to the Final.  Robinson and Potvin really are a photo finish in the rankings.

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[Kevin Biestra]

9 hours ago, HomeBrew said:

I’m not saying that players are just simply better relatively as time has gone (note that I voted Potvin the last two rounds). What I am inferring is that not all decades of hockey are created equal. Some have far more gifted players, and thus more relative competition, than others. I believe we are about enter another era of great defensemen with already established D such as Hedman, Carlson and Josi, but also a plethora of young star defence including Hughes, Makar, Heiskanen, Dahlen, etc. that are about to change the game.

 

Lidstrom didn’t revolutionize the game the way some other had, I also feel that he is over rated. He was great. Don’t get me wrong, but he wasn’t THAT great. He dominated the defensive awards in an era where there was a gluttony of mediocre defensemen. His only competition was a second half of their careers Niedermeyer and Pronger. Take 07-08 for example: his best competition (based on top Norris award voting) included Dan Boyle (4), Kimmo Timonen (5), Dion Phaneuf (6), Sergei Conchar (7)... etc. Tom Preissing and even Keith frickin Carney were even in the top 20. 
 

For what it’s worth, hockey didn’t even really matter until 1970 anyways. 

 

Good post about Lidstrom being slightly overrated and why, though I think Sergei Gonchar is a very respectable guy to have at 7th place.

[-AJ-]

2 hours ago, Silky mitts said:

For the guys saying robinson how old are you guys? Just curious, a lot of us are too young to have even seen him and a lot of others on this list. I am 28 btw.

Lots of folks well into their 50s and beyond on the forums. It's great to have a nice diversity in age for conversations like these.

[Canuck Surfer]

3 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

Belinda's older brother

Belinda? Belinda???

 

That was like injecting bleach. Fake News!  This will always be the real deal...

 

 An it ain't close...

[Kevin Biestra]

11 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Belinda? Belinda???

 

That was like injecting bleach. Fake News!  This will always be the real deal...

 

 An it ain't close...

 

Bro, Venus was Bananarama.  Belinda Carlisle was the Go-Gos.

[CaptKirk888]

Voted Robinson, no nomination the list is long enough 

[Canuck Surfer]

1 minute ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Bro, Venus was Bananarama.  Belinda Carlisle was the Go-Gos.

Oii, I caught myself with that.  Knew I was going to cop it...