Best All-Time Defenseman Round 8

[IBatch]

For those that are following this thought I’d speed it up a little.   Congratulations Potvin and Robinson, as for those that watched them it’s like splitting hairs ... who would you really want on your team?  Well BOTH for sure ha ha.   That said Potvin edged Robinson by one vote, democracy has spoken despite the small sample size. 
 

Potvin and number six, and Robinson at number seven.   Both guys absolutely deserving to be in that range.   Living legends both of them. 
 

A re-cap;

 

1. Orr

2. Lidstrom 

3. Bourque

4. Harvey

5. Coffey 

6. Potvin

7. Robinson 

 

Imagine that all playing together at once. Scary. 
 

Don’t forget to nominate someone.   And thanks for playing. 
 

Now that the shenanigans are over ... it’s time to put Shore on the list.  FYI the Bible of rankings, from 1998 had him before Bourque and Shore as the greatest defenseman after Orr that ever played for Boston .... number 10 of any player at the time all-time. 
 

That said Al Mac... well he deserves serious consideration.  Still nominate Zubov.  

Edited November 27, 2020 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

Vote for Eddie Shore.

 

Nominate Belinda's older brother Randy Carlyle again.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[CaptKirk888]

Voted Murphy 

[c00kies]

Vote for Fetisov (didn't notice this wasn't NHL specific)

 

Nominate Borje Salming

[-AJ-]

Voting for Shore, nominating Hedman.

[Rick Blight]

Voted Shore and nominate Shea Weber.

[Kevin Biestra]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

1. Orr

2. Lidstrom 

3. Bourque

4. Harvey

5. Coffey 

6. Potvin

7. Robinson 

 

Imagine that all playing together at once. Scary.

 

Well, we did have Bourque, Coffey, Potvin and Robinson all in prime form or close to it at the same time.  Plus, at the same time, Chelios, Housley, MacInnis, Stevens, Babych, Lowe, Huddy, Howe, Murphy, McCrimmon, Langway, Carlyle, Wilson, Ramage, Reinhart, Lidster, Beck, Patrick, Salming, Reed Larson, Doug Crossman, plus whoever I am forgetting.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[Herberts Vasiljevs]

Gotta go with Shore. May had been in the 30's, but 4 Hart trophies speaks for itself. Next up is MacInnis - who had an incredibly underrated career.

 

Tough not to nominate Hedman here as I think he's a top-5 player in the league, but I'll go with Rob Blake for now. Arguably the best D-man from the dead puck era not named Lidstrom (both were OVR 93 in NHL 04 ).

Edited November 27, 2020 by Herberts Vasiljevs

[smithers joe]

i picked neidermayer.

nominate paul reinhart. best pure passer i’ve seen and elite puck mover. excellent on the power play. smart player. 

[-Vintage Canuck-]

Eddie Shore.

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, Herberts Vasiljevs said:

Gotta go with Shore. May had been in the 30's, but 4 Hart trophies speaks for itself. Next up is MacInnis - who had an incredibly underrated career.

 

Tough not to nominate Hedman here as I think he's a top-5 player in the league, but I'll go with Rob Blake for now. Arguably the best D-man from the dead puck era not named Lidstrom (both were OVR 93 in NHL 04 ).

Blake was a beast in right from the get go.  A punishing hitter and great at standing guys up at the blue-line.   Watched every game in 93 playoffs, for sure that was his coming out party year. Was happy for him getting his cup although Bourque certainly overshadowed it.    At the time he’d have been one of the early picks off anyone’s list if they could build a team around anyone.   Hit like a tank - Stevens and Blake were for sure two of the best at it. Big dude - and played his entire prime in the dead puck era. 
 

.. Won the Norris in 98 as well as the first team all star...and second team all-star three consecutive years in the deepest part of the dead puck era 2000,2001,2002.      Pronger, MacInnis  and Lidstrom at that point were his steepest competition. 
 

Edit:  and FYI the only NHL game I’ve ever played was one from 93-94...a Nintendo game - I always played Detroit and my bro Vancouver...Paul Yserbaert was my secret weapon - had a glitch if I came done the wing with him and shot at the goal line he was unstoppable ha ha. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by IBatch

[Herberts Vasiljevs]

21 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Blake was a beast in right from the get go.  A punishing hitter and great at standing guys up at the blue-line.   Watched every game in 93 playoffs, for sure that was his coming out party year. Was happy for him getting his cup although Bourque certainly overshadowed it.    At the time he’d have been one of the early picks off anyone’s list if they could build a team around anyone.   Hit like a tank - Stevens and Blake were for sure two of the best at it. Big dude - and played his entire prime in the dead puck era. 
 

.. Won the Norris in 98 as well as the first team all star...and second team all-star three consecutive years in the deepest part of the dead puck era 2000,2001,2002.      Pronger, MacInnis  and Lidstrom at that point were his steepest competition. 

Surprised he hasn't been mentioned yet.

[Coconuts]

Voted Neidermeyer

 

Nominating Zubov 

[IBatch]

25 minutes ago, Herberts Vasiljevs said:

Surprised he hasn't been mentioned yet.

A few times early on mentioned him in passing as in who else isn’t nominated yet...in today’s game Weber wouldn’t be a bad comparison - aside that Weber hasn’t won a Norris or a cup (does have his gold medal though).    Different players for sure, but both at or near the top of their classes for a long time - and always play against the other teams top competition.    Blake was a monster punisher - like Adam Foote in his own zone but much better at the other stuff.  For a five year period during his peak - he was right at or near the top.    Old reliable.   We used to laugh at him when he first came in - all 6’4” of goofy looking good old potatoe farmer Rob Blake ... then he’d stand up a guy like Stevens (Kevin) at the blue line and we were like - “holy f!ck!!”  - “did you see that!”  .... came in like a seasoned pro.  Much deserving of the HHOF and I’d have him on my team before a few already on the list for sure. 

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Well, we did have Bourque, Coffey, Potvin and Robinson all in prime form or close to it at the same time.  Plus, at the same time, Chelios, Housley, MacInnis, Stevens, Babych, Lowe, Huddy, Howe, Murphy, McCrimmon, Langway, Carlyle, Wilson, Ramage, Reinhart, Lidster, Beck, Patrick, Salming, Reed Larson, Doug Crossman, plus whoever I am forgetting.

Babych was the 7th highest scoring defenseman of the 80’s, around some very big names, 4th in assists.  
 

Robinson and Carlyle were 12th and 11th for some perspective.   And Coffey was almost 200 points ahead of Ray Bourque....283, 669 and 952 points in 733 games... 

 

Regardless of better goalies for some and the lock-out and rule changes, in the 2000’s Lidstrom led the group with 550 points in 719 games, followed by Gonchar with 500 points in 627 games and Rafalski with 435 points in 695 games.   Babych scored more then all these guys in the 80’s. 
 

To make a complete mockery of the record books Gretzky scored more then Howes entire career in the 80’s with 1842 points ha ha.    And Coffey over 100 points more then Joe Thornton did as the leading scorer of the 2000’s.  And over 150 more then the leading scorer Patrick Kane did in the 2010’s....and based on goals alone he’d be the 6th  highest scorer the past decade (Coffey). 

 

Edit:  Back to Gretzky.  His 90’s PGP was second to Mario’s for the decade, and nobody else has come close to that since over a ten year period or over a career...even his second half where he became somewhat mortal, and half during the dead puck era, Crosby and Ovi can’t touch him. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by IBatch

[King Heffy]

Voting Shore, nominating Blake.    He was absolutely unreal in his own zone, and no slouch offensively. 

[GB5]

Vote Howe, nominate Blake

[Bad_BOI_pete]

i do agree that these players dominated during thier time period, but for alot of the older players the reason it seems so drastic is that thier competition was really bad. todays average nhler if brought back in time would be an all star player in the 70's. not because of talent but because of how well they would play positionally, and the amount of effort they work on thier deficiencies. that being said i do think all of the older players would be all stars if given the same coaching and were playing currently, they just wouldnt dominate like the did in thier era.

 

case in point.

 

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, Petey_BOI said:

i do agree that these players dominated during thier time period, but for alot of the older players the reason it seems so drastic is that thier competition was really bad. todays average nhler if brought back in time would be an all star player in the 70's. not because of talent but because of how well they would play positionally, and the amount of effort they work on thier deficiencies. that being said i do think all of the older players would be all stars if given the same coaching and were playing currently, they just wouldnt dominate like the did in thier era.

 

case in point.

 

Could you add Lidstrom’s Cloutier goal too please?    The average NHLer today in the 70’s might also wilt like a daisy in a drought.   There is more to hockey then speed.    Bourque is a legend an infallible.   Was better then 90% of the D’s in the league his last year, including the next crop of stars that went on to gulp...” break barriers “ with half a decade of no red-line only ...Lidstrom, Gonchar and Rafalski led the group of guys scoring 450ish-550ish points in the 2000’s...Coffey more then doubled that in the 80’s.   And almost won the Hart playing against some of the future stars of the 2000’s plus the Norris in his 15th season.

 

  Maybe it has more to do with expansion and talent level going the other way ... Bobby Hull is still considered one of the top ten fastest skaters all-time and was radared gunned at 120mph slap shot with a wooden stick.   Al Mac didn’t need a composite for that either - same with Al Ifrate.    By the 80’s conditioning and fitness was all the rage ... those guys were in great shape.   And had to fight for every inch of ice.   Howe was evaluated by the best pro sports doctor at the time and his results were the same as a championship boxer.  I suppose Liston and Ali were out of shape too right?  Or Foreman...
 

Id say the biggest difference is that fourth lines have reversed back to what they used to be pre-expansion.   When fight leaders were in the 4-6 range per season (aside from Ferguson who was around 10 most years) and four lines were rolled.   It’s sped the game up for sure, as has no redline - hard to gain a head of speed with that extra pass or deke added.  
 

Gartner’s all-star lap still hasn’t been beat ... an extra step plus a narrower lap had taken care of that so we will never really know (unless they revert back to how it used to be timed).  McDavid and McKinnon are the current speed demons - and for sure there are quite a few - but Bure is still considered the fastest ever with the puck.   Can say the game is faster - couldn’t imagine how WG and Mario would have done with no redline, or Orr for that matter.    Suggest watching some Robinson highlights...that guy wasn’t slow.   And incredibly gifted.   And for sure not out of shape.    Lafluer ... well some guys smoked yes.   Even Probert did.   Didn’t seem to matter when the gloves came off did it?  4 minute fight with McSorely...wow. 

Edited November 29, 2020 by IBatch

[Bad_BOI_pete]

im just saying the elite of the past had different level of competition as compared the competition of now, especially when it comes to defense. its also said you cant teach a man offensive prowess, which is why these players were so good.

 

it wont take me very long to prove my case, ill start with this. you can obviously see goalies had a harder time keeping the puck out of the net in the past, it largely due to the equipment. but comparing a guys point totals in the 70's - 80's point totals is a little disengenous. 

 

2019-20	NHL	1082	3.02	0.60	2.97	20.03	79.97	31.3	28.4	.910	2.82
2	2018-19	NHL	1271	3.01	0.58	2.92	19.78	80.22	31.3	28.5	.910	2.81
3	2017-18	NHL	1271	2.97	0.61	3.04	20.18	79.82	31.8	29.0	.912	2.78
4	2016-17	NHL	1230	2.77	0.57	2.99	19.10	80.90	30.1	27.5	.913	2.59
5	2015-16	NHL	1230	2.71	0.58	3.11	18.66	81.34	29.6	27.1	.915	2.51
6	2014-15	NHL	1230	2.73	0.57	3.06	18.66	81.34	29.8	27.3	.915	2.52
7	2013-14	NHL	1230	2.74	0.59	3.27	17.89	82.11	30.0	27.4	.914	2.56
8	2012-13	NHL	720	2.72	0.61	3.32	18.22	81.78	29.0	26.5	.912	2.54
9	2011-12	NHL	1230	2.73	0.57	3.31	17.31	82.69	29.7	27.1	.914	2.54
10	2010-11	NHL	1230	2.79	0.64	3.54	18.02	81.98	30.3	27.7	.913	2.61
11	2009-10	NHL	1230	2.84	0.68	3.71	18.23	81.77	30.2	27.5	.911	2.66
12	2008-09	NHL	1230	2.91	0.79	4.16	18.95	81.05	30.1	27.4	.908	2.73
13	2007-08	NHL	1230	2.78	0.76	4.28	17.75	82.25	29.0	26.3	.909	2.61
14	2006-07	NHL	1230	2.95	0.85	4.85	17.58	82.42	29.5	26.7	.905	2.77
15	2005-06	NHL	1230	3.08	1.03	5.85	17.68	82.32	29.9	27.0	.901	2.92
16	2003-04	NHL	1230	2.57	0.70	4.24	16.46	83.54	28.0	25.5	.911	2.46
17	2002-03	NHL	1230	2.65	0.73	4.42	16.43	83.57	28.3	25.7	.909	2.54
18	2001-02	NHL	1230	2.62	0.65	4.13	15.77	84.23	27.5	25.0	.908	2.51
19	2000-01	NHL	1230	2.76	0.76	4.59	16.64	83.36	27.6	25.0	.903	2.65
20	1999-00	NHL	1148	2.75	0.65	4.03	16.15	83.85	27.9	25.2	.904	2.64
Rk	Season	Lg	GP	G	PP	PPO	PP%	PK%	SA	SV	SV%	GAA
21	1998-99	NHL	1107	2.63	0.69	4.38	15.81	84.19	27.8	25.2	.908	2.56
22	1997-98	NHL	1066	2.64	0.70	4.64	15.08	84.92	27.3	24.7	.906	2.53
23	1996-97	NHL	1066	2.92	0.67	4.10	16.27	83.73	29.7	26.9	.905	2.80
24	1995-96	NHL	1066	3.14	0.90	5.04	17.93	82.07	30.2	27.1	.898	3.04
25	1994-95	NHL	624	2.99	0.77	4.36	17.73	82.27	29.3	26.4	.901	2.89
26	1993-94	NHL	1092	3.24	0.90	4.85	18.64	81.36	30.2	27.1	.895	3.14
27	1992-93	NHL	1008	3.63	1.03	5.28	19.57	80.43	30.9	27.4	.885	3.53
28	1991-92	NHL	880	3.48	0.97	5.02	19.24	80.76	30.4	27.0	.888	3.37
29	1990-91	NHL	840	3.46	0.89	4.57	19.44	80.56	29.7	26.4	.886	3.35
30	1989-90	NHL	840	3.68	0.95	4.58	20.77	79.23	30.2	26.6	.881	3.56
31	1988-89	NHL	840	3.74	1.06	5.04	20.99	79.01	30.3	26.6	.879	3.63
32	1987-88	NHL	840	3.71	1.11	5.46	20.29	79.71	30.4	26.8	.880	3.62
33	1986-87	NHL	840	3.67	0.90	4.30	20.98	79.02	29.9	26.3	.880	3.56
34	1985-86	NHL	840	3.97	1.02	4.62	22.08	77.92	31.0	27.1	.874	3.87
35	1984-85	NHL	840	3.89	0.89	4.01	22.20	77.80	30.5	26.7	.875	3.79
36	1983-84	NHL	840	3.94	0.92	4.20	21.91	78.09	30.5	26.7	.873	3.84
37	1982-83	NHL	840	3.86	0.89	3.87	22.92	77.08	30.5	26.7	.875	3.80
38	1981-82	NHL	840	4.01	0.91	4.00	22.85	77.15	31.1	27.1	.873	3.95
39	1980-81	NHL	840	3.84	0.96	4.25	22.53	77.47	30.4	26.7	.876	3.78
40	1979-80	NHL	840	3.51	0.77	3.50	21.86	78.14	29.3	25.9	.882	3.46
Rk	Season	Lg	GP	G	PP	PPO	PP%	PK%	SA	SV	SV%	GAA
41	1978-79	NHL	680	3.50	0.77	3.38	22.72	77.28	29.3	25.9	.883	3.45
42	1977-78	NHL	720	3.30	0.67	3.19	21.15	78.85	29.2	26.0	.889	3.26
43	1976-77	NHL	720	3.32	0.66	3.31	19.83	80.17	30.0	26.7	.891	3.28
44	1975-76	NHL	720	3.41	0.82	4.01	20.54	79.46	30.6	27.2	.890	3.37
45	1974-75	NHL	720	3.43	0.80	3.95	20.33	79.67	30.7	27.4	.890	3.38
46	1973-74	NHL	624	3.20	0.63	3.30	19.09	80.91	30.3	27.2	.896	3.16
47	1972-73	NHL	624	3.28	0.63	3.34	18.71	81.29	31.1	27.8	.896	3.24
48	1971-72	NHL	546	3.07	0.67	3.45	19.38	80.62	30.9	27.9	.903	3.02
49