All-Time top Ten Defenseman

[IBatch]

Polls over folks.   Topped off with good old wooden stick all-star power hitter Al MacInnis at number 10 (and for sure deserving of the honours).   Thanks for playing everyone, was fun.   Going to stop here (for now).  
 

Anyone who wants to make a list and compare my personal one would be something like this (not favourite - so far that’s still Coffey but admit he wasn’t the best). 
 

1.  Orr.

 

Then in no particular order:

 

Harvey, Shore, Potvin, Robinson, Bourque and Coffey

 

MacInnis, Lidstrom, Leetch, Park. 
 

HM:  Chelios and Pronger. 

[Kevin Biestra]

I wouldn't argue much with of that except I'd try to get Pilote and Kelly in there somewhere.  And I'd personally have Pronger below some guys not named like Stevens, probably Niedermayer, it sickens me to say it but possibly Duncan Keith, and I would have to consider Housley and Murphy just based on massive points disparity (over 1200 each vs. just short of 700 for Pronger).

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[-AJ-]

Thanks for running! This was fun.

 

A comparison of CDC's list and mine:

 

	CDC	My List
1	Bobby Orr	Bobby Orr
2	Nicklas Lidstrom	Eddie Shore
3	Ray Bourque	Ray Bourque
4	Doug Harvey	Nicklas Lidstrom
5	Paul Coffey	Doug Harvey
6	Denis Potvin	Denis Potvin
7	Larry Robinson	Red Kelly
8	Eddie Shore	Larry Robinson
9	Scott Niedermayer	Al MacInnis
10	Al MacInnis	Paul Coffey

 

 

My honourable mentions: Pierre Pilote and Chris Chelios

 

All in all, fairly close to my list in a sense. The order was shifted around a fair bit, but only one player on my top 10 didn't get in (Red Kelly). Niedermayer was a big difference from mine, as I had him down at 17th. I know Brad Park had a lot of steam in that last one as well, he was 13th for me. I was nominating Hedman a lot during the list creation--I had him at 18th. The first guy not best known for his NHL game was Fetisov who was 20th for me.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

I wouldn't argue much with of that except I'd try to get Pilote and Kelly in there somewhere.  And I'd personally have Pronger below some guys not named like Stevens, probably Niedermayer, it sickens me to say it but possibly Duncan Keith, and I would have to consider Housley and Murphy just based on massive points disparity (over 1200 each vs. just short of 700 for Pronger).

 

Only have Pronger in there because when he was at his peak was just that good.   EDM had no business going to the final, and for 1/2 the game he was there to keep them moving forward  ... (and wasn’t particularly my favourite player either - but couldn’t help but take notice at the time) but yes Stevens, Housley, Niedermayer, Murphy and possibly Keith have arguments for being before him for sure.   Maybe a few others too.   Points for sure wasn’t his game (Pronger) although he managed quite a few of those too. 
 

Chara and Langway too.   Of the guys playing right now Keith and Chara are locks for the HHOF, probably Doughty, maybe Burns and maybe EK if his second half is half as good as his first ... and Hedman.   

Edited December 1, 2020 by IBatch

[IBatch]

7 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

Thanks for running! This was fun.

 

A comparison of CDC's list and mine:

 

	CDC	My List
1	Bobby Orr	Bobby Orr
2	Nicklas Lidstrom	Eddie Shore
3	Ray Bourque	Ray Bourque
4	Doug Harvey	Nicklas Lidstrom
5	Paul Coffey	Doug Harvey
6	Denis Potvin	Denis Potvin
7	Larry Robinson	Red Kelly
8	Eddie Shore	Larry Robinson
9	Scott Niedermayer	Al MacInnis
10	Al MacInnis	Paul Coffey

 

 

My honourable mentions: Pierre Pilote and Chris Chelios

 

All in all, fairly close to my list in a sense. The order was shifted around a fair bit, but only one player on my top 10 didn't get in (Red Kelly). Niedermayer was a big difference from mine, as I had him down at 17th. I know Brad Park had a lot of steam in that last one as well, he was 13th for me. I was nominating Hedman a lot during the list creation--I had him at 18th. The first guy not best known for his NHL game was Fetisov who was 20th for me.

To me there for sure is a small list of guys below Orr and ahead of the rest - all those guys made both the top CDC’s and your top ten.   Always appreciate your input.   Thinks it’s fitting with the new crop of amazing your D’s coming into to the league right now, and was fun.  Liked your Hedman nomination - he would of for sure made it in next round - and I’m sure one day be in the HHOF. 

[Coconuts]

21 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Only have Pronger in there because when he was at his peak was just that good.   EDM had no business going to the final, and for 1/2 the game he was there to keep them moving forward  ... (and wasn’t particularly my favourite player either - but couldn’t help but take notice at the time) but yes Stevens, Housley, Niedermayer, Murphy and possibly Keith have arguments for being before him for sure.   Maybe a few others too.   Points for sure wasn’t his game (Pronger) although he managed quite a few of those too. 
 

Chara and Langway too.   Of the guys playing right now Keith and Chara are locks for the HHOF, probably Doughty, maybe Burns and maybe EK if his second half is half as good as his first ... and Hedman.   

If you mention Burns and Karlsson, where would you have Weber? He's about 120 points behind Burns but he's also 123 games behind him. I'm just curious really, as I see Weber effectively playing out the remainder of his contract. 

[IBatch]

31 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

If you mention Burns and Karlsson, where would you have Weber? He's about 120 points behind Burns but he's also 123 games behind him. I'm just curious really, as I see Weber effectively playing out the remainder of his contract. 

I’d actually have him right in there with them.   Never won a Norris - but in the conversation often and always plays against the league’s top players night in, night out since almost at the start.  From Keith - EK/Carlson a lot of excellent D’s also came into the league within a five year or so time.   Some flamed out after hot starts (Phanuef), some didn’t make it to close where folks thought they would (Bogasian)... Suter, Bowmeester and AP too.   I’m a huge Weber fan, to me he’s exactly what you hope to have on your team.    He’s a bubble player for sure (HHOFer), and might have a better chance then EK at this point.  

Edited December 1, 2020 by IBatch

[Coconuts]

5 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I’d actually have him right in there with them.   Never won a Norris - but in the conversation often and always plays against the league’s top players night in, night out since almost at the start.  From Keith - EK/Carlson a lot of excellent D’s also came into the league within a five year or so time.   Some flamed out after hot starts (Phanuef), some didn’t make it to close where folks thought they would (Bogasian)... Suter, Bowmeester and AP too.   I’m a huge Weber fan, to me he’s exactly what you hope to have on your team.    He’s a bubble player for sure (HHOFer), and might have a better chance then EK at this point.  

I'd be surprised if Bouwmeester doesn't make it, as a triple gold member he's won about as much as you can at the highest pro level. Suter hasn't won the same way, but he's got similar numbers to Weber with more games played. Petro should be a hall of famer by the time he's said and done, he'll get every opportunity to pile on in Vegas. 

 

And I agree on Weber for sure. I wonder if perhaps the standards for what makes a hall of famer have to be looked at differently than in decades past. Particularly for D. Most D, even the great ones, don't pile on pointwise the way guys did way back when. 

 

I mean, go back twenty years and the Sedins making the HOF would likely be laughed at by some, but I consider them surefire hall of famers. 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

I'd be surprised if Bouwmeester doesn't make it, as a triple gold member he's won about as much as you can at the highest pro level. Suter hasn't won the same way, but he's got similar numbers to Weber with more games played. Petro should be a hall of famer by the time he's said and done, he'll get every opportunity to pile on in Vegas. 

 

And I agree on Weber for sure. I wonder if perhaps the standards for what makes a hall of famer have to be looked at differently than in decades past. Particularly for D. Most D, even the great ones, don't pile on pointwise the way guys did way back when. 

 

I mean, go back twenty years and the Sedins making the HOF would likely be laughed at by some, but I consider them surefire hall of famers. 

Yes for sure.    Read an article about a year after QHs was drafted talking about all the young D talent coming in (not just Dahlin, Heiskanen, Makar - but Boqvist, Bouchard, Dobson,  Byram, Fox plus plus) and how lacklustre things have been since Lidstrom hung them up  ....  only Chara and Keith were considered sure fire HHOFer, and maybe Burns, EK and Doughty...no mention of anyone else but you’d have to figure at least a couple might make the cut - Weber being one of them for sure.    It was about how hopeful and high they were on the next crop of young D’s  (and so far definitely aren’t disappointing)...

 

.   Was a THN prospect article...  those Suter’s are/were pretty darn good too.  Not sure how they will determine it.   Not all Norris/Harts are created equal either. 
 

Personally feel that EKs achievement of becoming the 4th D all time to be in the top ten in league wide scoring three times might get lost in what happens next ... and that Chara, Keith, Hedman and Weber will all make it in for sure ... Doughty, Burns probably too. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by IBatch

[Coconuts]

4 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yes for sure.    Read an article about a year after QHs was drafted talking about all the young D talent coming in (not just Dahlin, Heiskanen, Makar - but Boqvist, Bouchard, Dobson,  Byram, Fox plus plus) and how lacklustre things have been since Lidstrom hung them up  ....  only Chara and Keith were considered sure fire HHOFer, and maybe Burns, EK and Doughty...no mention of anyone else but you’d have to figure at least a couple might make the cut - Weber being one of them for sure.    It was about how hopeful and high they were on the next crop of young D’s  (and so far definitely aren’t disappointing)...

 

.   Was a THN prospect article...  those Suter’s are/were pretty darn good too.  Not sure how they will determine it.   Not all Norris/Harts are created equal either. 

You'd think so, it'd be wild to go an entire era with only a small handful of Dmen making the HOF from it. This coming group of youth, we'll see, it's so early. But yeah, things have been pretty dismal since Lidstrom called it quits. 

 

I always thought Weber should have won one at his peak, he was really one of the best, if not the best during some of his time in Nashville. 

[IBatch]

2 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

You'd think so, it'd be wild to go an entire era with only a small handful of Dmen making the HOF from it. This coming group of youth, we'll see, it's so early. But yeah, things have been pretty dismal since Lidstrom called it quits. 

 

I always thought Weber should have won one at his peak, he was really one of the best, if not the best during some of his time in Nashville. 

Yes he most definitely was, and still is pretty darn good now.   I like him even more because he’d excel in any era and he’s the protypical definition of a number one defenseman. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by IBatch

[Ballisticsports.]

That was entertaining, Thanks

 

I wouldn't have MacInnis  in my top 10  though (He is just outside it)

 

What would be fun is if one made a all time top  list of RD,LD,RW,LW,C, G    and made a team of them,

put #1 on the 1st lines, #2  on the 2nd lines

( but no playing a guy out of his posted position, doesn't matter if he was a great centre, no moving to wing etc)

 

[Coconuts]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Yes he most definitely was, and still is pretty darn good now.   I like him even more because he’d excel in any era and he’s the protypical definition of a number one defenseman. 

Yeah, he's actually held up pretty well in Montreal

 

They definitely won that trade in retrospect, Subban hasn't been the same the last number of years 

 

And he is, I always wanted him, he would have put us over the top 

 

But of course he'd have cost a ton 

[Goat James]

10 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Thanks for running! This was fun.

 

A comparison of CDC's list and mine:

 

	CDC	My List
1	Bobby Orr	Bobby Orr
2	Nicklas Lidstrom	Eddie Shore
3	Ray Bourque	Ray Bourque
4	Doug Harvey	Nicklas Lidstrom
5	Paul Coffey	Doug Harvey
6	Denis Potvin	Denis Potvin
7	Larry Robinson	Red Kelly
8	Eddie Shore	Larry Robinson
9	Scott Niedermayer	Al MacInnis
10	Al MacInnis	Paul Coffey

 

 

My honourable mentions: Pierre Pilote and Chris Chelios

 

All in all, fairly close to my list in a sense. The order was shifted around a fair bit, but only one player on my top 10 didn't get in (Red Kelly). Niedermayer was a big difference from mine, as I had him down at 17th. I know Brad Park had a lot of steam in that last one as well, he was 13th for me. I was nominating Hedman a lot during the list creation--I had him at 18th. The first guy not best known for his NHL game was Fetisov who was 20th for me.

 

 

Not having Lidström in your top two should be considered a federal felony. 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Goat James said:

 

 

Not having Lidström in your top two should be considered a federal felony. 

Bourque was a first or second team all-star a record 17 years in a row - and 19 times total (13 first all-star teams), including against much better competition part of which was Lidstrom’s first decade or so of play.   More then any other player in the history of the game including Wayne Gretzky.   11th in games played, first in points, on much worse teams, higher plus minus too.    And not all Norris are created equal .. a minus 2 his last one, it was an embarrassing life achievement award to set him up to tie Harvey.   Against “killers “ like Gonchar and Rafalski and a young Phanuef.   There is a reason Lidstrom didn’t win one until he was 30, and it wasn’t because he just kept getting better with age.   He was great already, but there were greater players still in the game.   Bourque was a first team all-star in 2001... what year did he win a cup again and retire? 

[Goat James]

7 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Bourque was a first or second team all-star a record 17 years in a row - and 19 times total (13 first all-star teams), including against much better competition part of which was Lidstrom’s first decade or so of play.   More then any other player in the history of the game including Wayne Gretzky.   11th in games played, first in points, on much worse teams, higher plus minus too.    And not all Norris are created equal .. a minus 2 his last one, it was an embarrassing life achievement award to set him up to tie Harvey.   Against “killers “ like Gonchar and Rafalski and a young Phanuef.   There is a reason Lidstrom didn’t win one until he was 30, and it wasn’t because he just kept getting better with age.   He was great already, but there were greater players still in the game.   Bourque was a first team all-star in 2001... what year did he win a cup again and retire? 

 

Nicklas would have won the Norris in his 20s had been named Lindsay instead of Lidström and born in Abbotsford instead of Avesta. It's crazy to think that he managed to win seven Norrises when he got his first at age 30. He was a trail blazer in a way Bourque never was; he the first European to captain his team to a Cup and the first European to win the Conn Smythe. Bourque is 10 years older than Lidström, so when you're talking about his 2001 season (first team all star), you've gotta compare it to Lidström's 2011 season, where he won the Norris (you can of course make the case that he didn't deserve to win it that year, but at least he wasn't miles worse than Bourque at the same age.)

 

 Lidström won four Stanley Cups to Bourque's one, you can argue that he had better teams, but then again, he managed to win with them. He's also a member of the Trippel Gold Club, something Bourque is not. Ray played during a much higher scoring era, that explains his better counting stats. 

 

Lidström >> Bourque. 

[IBatch]

20 minutes ago, Goat James said:

 

Nicklas would have won the Norris in his 20s had been named Lindsay instead of Lidström and born in Abbotsford instead of Avesta. It's crazy to think that he managed to win seven Norrises when he got his first at age 30. He was a trail blazer in a way Bourque never was; he the first European to captain his team to a Cup and the first European to win the Conn Smythe. Bourque is 10 years older than Lidström, so when you're talking about his 2001 season (first team all star), you've gotta compare it to Lidström's 2011 season, where he won the Norris (you can of course make the case that he didn't deserve to win it that year, but at least he wasn't miles worse than Bourque at the same age.)

 

 Lidström won four Stanley Cups to Bourque's one, you can argue that he had better teams, but then again, he managed to win with them. He's also a member of the Trippel Gold Club, something Bourque is not. Ray played during a much higher scoring era, that explains his better counting stats. 

 

Lidström >> Bourque. 

Having watched them both I’d have Bourque ahead of Lidstrom.   Lidstrom wasn’t even the best on his own team right away, when Bourque became so right off the hop ... and if a 35 year old Coffey can also outperform Lidstrom and almost win the Hart I stick to my guns that the competition wore very thin and there was a void of elite D’s in the 2000’s.   Can’t say the goalies were half as good in the 80’s...because the leading scorer’s literally lapped the field of the 2000’s.  Sp don’t lie.   2-3% better that’s it. 
 

  Bourque was way more physical and could control the game the same way, and put up more points (era’s are just that and a ten year older Bourque did just fine playing on some very bad Bruins teams at points in the 90’s against Lidstrom....

 

your welcome to your opinion of course - and he’s deserving of a top five ranking...but not ahead of Bourque, and possibly not Potvin either... or Coffey...or Robinson.   He is part of a small group of guys ahead of the rest of the best and below Orr.     If Coffey can take a lesser team in 95 and almost win the Hart and on pace for yet another 100 plus point year his 15th season in...why couldn’t Lidstrom beat these guys, even at their late primes?   MacInnis and Leetch also deserve some recognition as well.    To say it’s foolish not to have Lidstrom at number two is like saying why isn’t Thornton number two all-time C.   Because you actually saw how good he was.   And can’t believe that there could be better.   
 

Edit:  To be perfectly fair, Lidstrom was recently added to THN all-time defenseman list at 3.   Ahead of Bourque.   So what do I know ha ha.   Apparently it caused quite the  internal jousting with that group because he’s the last great D that hadn’t retired or soon about to retire in 98 (and they won’t mess with any of that list it’s their holy Bible of rankings - incredible the hockey guys they got to make it for them)... the younger staff voted him very high for the most part (quite a few 2’s), the older staff for the most part had him in the top five area but not as high.   Even the one they made ten years ago he wasn’t as high which is what bugs me the most ... almost retired but one more season puts him up three or four spots?   That’s their decision and now that he’s on it he won’t be moving unless a new D comes in and bumps him out.   
 

The CDC also voted him as number 2, no big surprise there.   You’ve got lots of support.  

Edited December 1, 2020 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

13 hours ago, Coconuts said:

I'd be surprised if Bouwmeester doesn't make it, as a triple gold member he's won about as much as you can at the highest pro level. Suter hasn't won the same way, but he's got similar numbers to Weber with more games played. Petro should be a hall of famer by the time he's said and done, he'll get every opportunity to pile on in Vegas. 

 

And I agree on Weber for sure. I wonder if perhaps the standards for what makes a hall of famer have to be looked at differently than in decades past. Particularly for D. Most D, even the great ones, don't pile on pointwise the way guys did way back when. 

 

I mean, go back twenty years and the Sedins making the HOF would likely be laughed at by some, but I consider them surefire hall of famers. 

 

I could be out of touch, but I never really thought of Bouwmeester as seriously in the conversation for the HOF.  The highest he ever got was 11th place for the Norris and only registered any votes at all in three seasons (with the others further down than 11th).

 

Hell of a player, but when I think of his career as a counterpart to D-men from different eras, I think of guys like Ron Greschner, James Patrick.  Maybe slightly higher on a good day around the level of Brad McCrimmon, Charlie Huddy, Kevin Hatcher or Paul Reinhart.

 

I think of him as below Gary Suter on the waiting list, and Suter hasn't got in and also doesn't even get talked about.

 

But maybe I'm underappreciating Bouwmeester, I dunno.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[-AJ-]

4 hours ago, Goat James said:

 

 

Not having Lidström in your top two should be considered a federal felony. 

I've always considered Lidstrom to be on the overrated side a little. He's obviously incredible, but I don't think his all-around game was as strong as Bourque's and he won precisely 0 Hart trophies in stark contrast to Shore's four. Funny enough, as someone who watched mostly from the early 2000s onward, you'd think I'd be biased in Lidstrom's favour, but I think digging a lot into history has helped to nullify my generational bias somewhat.

[IBatch]

29 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I could be out of touch, but I never really thought of Bouwmeester as seriously in the conversation for the HOF.  The highest he ever got was 11th place for the Norris and only registered any votes at all in three seasons (with the others further down than 11th).

 

Hell of a player, but when I think of his career as a counterpart to D-men from different eras, I think of guys like Ron Greschner, James Patrick.  Maybe slightly higher around the level of Brad McCrimmon, Charlie Huddy or Paul Reinhart.

 

I think of him as below Gary Suter on the waiting list, and Suter hasn't got in and also doesn't even get talked about.

 

But maybe I'm underappreciating Bouwmeester, I dunno.

Pretty much nailed it.   Rob Ramage too.   Just a solid guy for a long time, Edler isn’t a bad comparable either really, just spent too much of his career on bad teams.    Suter  is one of a few guys in the top 25 for single seasons (23 at 91 points) and one of a very select few to manage that feet.   Lidstrom didn’t make the top 50.... couldn’t help but add that ha ha.   He’s legacy has increased tenfold since his retirement.    Bouwmeester is just one of the incredible group of D’s that came around within a five year period or so which is why I initially brought it up.   It’s a phase in hockey that doesn’t compare to the early 80’s crop, but for sure deserves some due.   Green/Keith/Phanuef/Weber/Suter/Bouwmeester/ Doughty/Bogasian (he was very highly touted just didn’t work out)/ Burns/Byfuglien/EK/AP/ Hedman and maybe stretched out to Carlson too.   
 

Quite the impressive group.  For sure doesn’t line up with the early 80’s drafts (several are considered in the top five all-time), but still the last time something like that’s happened until right now.