All-Time top Ten Defenseman

[Coconuts]

6 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Yeah, barring big changes, I don't see 150 in the reasonably soon future. It is exciting to me that we had Kucherov with 128 points last year and Draisaitl was on pace for 127 points this year before the pause. I honestly had doubts we'd ever seen 120 again, but it seems like now that we're getting a least one player a year capable of that number. McDavid was on pace for 122 points in 2018-19 and 125 points this past year. It's such a shame that injuries and COVID have prevented him from actually getting past the 120-point mark so far.

Yeah, I was surprised by Draisaitl tbh. Kucherov had lightning in a bottle, but that whole Tampa team was a monster. Didn't expect it from an Oiler. Hopefully if another player reaches those heights he's not from Alberta, but alas. Gotta wonder if scoring's on the uptick, or if these players are just anomalies? Hard to say, who knows when we'll have an 82 game season again. 

34 minutes ago, IBatch said:

MTL for sure won that trade, even with injuries.   A few million less in cap hit,  and Subban for sure isn’t played against the best every shift - stats back that up big time.   Even with his injuries he’s been a solid guy for them.   Imagine if both him and Suter stayed in Nashville?  Add Josi, Ellis and Ekholm etc to that group they’d be incredible on D (and still aren’t too bad).   Cap changed everything. 

The cap really did, sometimes I wonder what the last threeish decades would have looked like without it. And Nashville was really hurting after that, those were huge losses. But yeah, he's done really well in Montreal. It's almost a shame Subban's' fallen off the way he has, he was fun to watch at one point. 

[King Heffy]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

MTL for sure won that trade, even with injuries.   A few million less in cap hit,  and Subban for sure isn’t played against the best every shift - stats back that up big time.   Even with his injuries he’s been a solid guy for them.   Imagine if both him and Suter stayed in Nashville?  Add Josi, Ellis and Ekholm etc to that group they’d be incredible on D (and still aren’t too bad).   Cap changed everything. 

Seth Jones too.  They did get a decent return for him, but I definitely think they lost that trade.  That being said, the cap is the reason they've been able to ice a competitive lineup; they came very close to moving not so long ago.  Weber's already a lock for the HHOF in my book; he's the last great one of the old-school Pronger, Stevens type. 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, King Heffy said:

Seth Jones too.  They did get a decent return for him, but I definitely think they lost that trade.  That being said, the cap is the reason they've been able to ice a competitive lineup; they came very close to moving not so long ago.  Weber's already a lock for the HHOF in my book; he's the last great one of the old-school Pronger, Stevens type. 

Yep.   Be hard pressed not to pick him near the top with anyone available now including the new crop of kids if you could start a franchise with anyone playing now when they were 18.   Hedman too.   Weber has all the tools you want for a guy running your first pairing.  

[IBatch]

8 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Yeah, I was surprised by Draisaitl tbh. Kucherov had lightning in a bottle, but that whole Tampa team was a monster. Didn't expect it from an Oiler. Hopefully if another player reaches those heights he's not from Alberta, but alas. Gotta wonder if scoring's on the uptick, or if these players are just anomalies? Hard to say, who knows when we'll have an 82 game season again. 

The cap really did, sometimes I wonder what the last threeish decades would have looked like without it. And Nashville was really hurting after that, those were huge losses. But yeah, he's done really well in Montreal. It's almost a shame Subban's' fallen off the way he has, he was fun to watch at one point. 

Seems like scoring is has been creeping up ever since McDavid, Eichel and Mathews etc came into the league...between them and the older guys still doing, McKinnon exploding into the etc the league is looking very promising at the moment.   A lot of great talent all at once does that.   Point... Kane, Crosby and Ovi still doing it.   Really great time to be a fan ... 

[Coconuts]

4 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Seems like scoring is has been creeping up ever since McDavid, Eichel and Mathews etc came into the league...between them and the older guys still doing, McKinnon exploding into the etc the league is looking very promising at the moment.   A lot of great talent all at once does that.   Point... Kane, Crosby and Ovi still doing it.   Really great time to be a fan ... 

I'm still baffled by the fact that Mac hasn't won any major hardware, he's been absolutely ridiculous these last few seasons. But yeah, lot of talent. I think the supposed parity makes top players pop all the more. You don't usually get too many of them on one team nowadays. Kane, Crosby, and Ovi will likely be productive until they decide to retire, they're all just that talented. 

[IBatch]

48 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

I'm still baffled by the fact that Mac hasn't won any major hardware, he's been absolutely ridiculous these last few seasons. But yeah, lot of talent. I think the supposed parity makes top players pop all the more. You don't usually get too many of them on one team nowadays. Kane, Crosby, and Ovi will likely be productive until they decide to retire, they're all just that talented. 

Think things are a little cyclic, and even with the league getting as large as it is, the talent level has caught up.   Generational players come around just like that word suggests - and right now we have a couple of the older players still elite enough to get it done (three years ago I’d say Ovi wouldn’t have the slightest chance of breaking Gretzky’s goal record .... now I’m pretty sure he could if he played with the same durability until he’s 40) ... Crosby is still Crosby ... Kane manage’s to keep it up year after year .... and now the defense is also looking incredibly promising too.  
 

The 2000’s were a bit of a let down until the lock-out and the rule changes.   Since then it’s been slowly moving the needle away from 2-1 games into a more exciting 5-4 firebrand of hockey again.  Last season we saw more blowouts per game then I can remember in a long, long time.   Don’t feel bad for the goalies one bit - they’ve had it too easy for way too long.     The game has opened up and accepted a lot of PMDs too.   It should only further this trend.    
 

 

93-94 was the last year we saw so many guys break 100 points ... don’t know if things will get back to those heights but could see quite a few get there, and quite a few score 50 next time we have a full season.   McDavid, Drasaitl, Kucherov (and maybe Point too), Panarin, McKinnon, Pastrnak, Ovi, Mathews, maybe Eichel or a couple others too.    And a whole bunch 80 or more.    EP?  Well he’s a heck of a player and rapidly climbing the ranks.  Svecknikov and Aho too.   Great time to be a fan that’s for sure. 

[IBatch]

Wanted to add one more thing about the new crop of young guys.   THN has an article in their new yearbook and they continue to be very bullish in their projections of these guys.   Two of them were compared to top ten all-time guys (Lidstrom and Potvin), and one bubble top ten guy and best US D ever in Leetch.    Probably not hard to figure out who’s who of those guys.   It’s crazy what a few short years can do to a team and a league even. 

[Davathor]

Pronger deserves that honorable mention just for the epic, playoff face slash of his own captain

[IBatch]

On 11/30/2020 at 8:54 PM, -AJ- said:

Thanks for running! This was fun.

 

A comparison of CDC's list and mine:

 

	CDC	My List
1	Bobby Orr	Bobby Orr
2	Nicklas Lidstrom	Eddie Shore
3	Ray Bourque	Ray Bourque
4	Doug Harvey	Nicklas Lidstrom
5	Paul Coffey	Doug Harvey
6	Denis Potvin	Denis Potvin
7	Larry Robinson	Red Kelly
8	Eddie Shore	Larry Robinson
9	Scott Niedermayer	Al MacInnis
10	Al MacInnis	Paul Coffey

 

 

My honourable mentions: Pierre Pilote and Chris Chelios

 

All in all, fairly close to my list in a sense. The order was shifted around a fair bit, but only one player on my top 10 didn't get in (Red Kelly). Niedermayer was a big difference from mine, as I had him down at 17th. I know Brad Park had a lot of steam in that last one as well, he was 13th for me. I was nominating Hedman a lot during the list creation--I had him at 18th. The first guy not best known for his NHL game was Fetisov who was 20th for me.

Like your list... but Coffey is a tad low.   Only Messier has more PIMS (in 347 more games) then Coffey of the top 25 scorers all-time - and he had more Gordie Howe hat-tricks then, well Gordie Howe with 9.  For reference only 9 players have ten or more, and the active leaders are Joe Thornton and Zdeno Chara with 5 each (wow!).   I think that he gets a bit of a bum rap as too one dimensional when he really wasn’t.
 

  In 87 when the chips were down in a close game against USSR against the Red Army’s best team ever - it was Coffey that broke up the 2-1 and started the play up the ice that would become iconic.    I like that you had Red Kelly - but really Coffey was barely second to Orr on one side of the puck - and I bet if advanced stats existed back then, he’d be equally as dominant in those areas too.   One of how many guys to get a Norris on two different teams?    3 Norries trophies - one 15 seasons after his first one against Lidstrom and some of the guys on the list ahead of him too...he was a very special player IMO only Borque, Potvin and maybe Harvey should be considered above him.   No matter what method of points adjusted - his stats would be eye popping in today’s standards.   And is considered by all pro rankings as a top ten skater all-time.   Without a redline and extra pass in today’s game he’d easily get 100 points in his prime on a mediocre team.    Only player I’ve seen game a lot of speed while gliding.   In his own words “I look back at old games they’re showing these days and yeah, I had a pretty decent stride “..   like Gretzky modest to a fault.   You don’t score 48 goals in a season in the NHL as a defenseman - regardless of era- without having some sick skills.   He was for awhile at least, the second coming of Orr.   Back then it seemed like more would come.   Funny thing.... not yet.   And sorry Lidstrom, you might be the perfect human, but no way would I pick Lidstrom before Coffey (having watched them both).   Coffey scored more points in one decade then anyone else ... more then anyone in the 2000’s, and almost twice as many as Lidstrom the leading scorer for D’s in the 2000’s.   I’m glad a lot of folks on here got to see Lidstrom.   Because they know what a top ten guy should look like.    But I’m not that sure many folks who’ve been around to see the best of the 70-90’s would put him ahead of Coffey, Borque and Potvin ... but I get that they would - because when you see greatness it’s hard to imagine that better players existed.   Which you’ve for sure done as well with Red Kelly and Shore.   
 

Id have a tough choice between Al Mac and Lidstrom personally.   If I had to pick one who to choose.   

[-AJ-]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Like your list... but Coffey is a tad low.   Only Messier has more PIMS (in 347 more games) then Coffey of the top 25 scorers all-time - and he had more Gordie Howe hat-tricks then, well Gordie Howe with 9.  For reference only 9 players have ten or more, and the active leaders are Joe Thornton and Zdeno Chara with 5 each (wow!).   I think that he gets a bit of a bum rap as too one dimensional when he really wasn’t.
 

  In 87 when the chips were down in a close game against USSR against the Red Army’s best team ever - it was Coffey that broke up the 2-1 and started the play up the ice that would become iconic.    I like that you had Red Kelly - but really Coffey was barely second to Orr on one side of the puck - and I bet if advanced stats existed back then, he’d be equally as dominant in those areas too.   One of how many guys to get a Norris on two different teams?    3 Norries trophies - one 15 seasons after his first one against Lidstrom and some of the guys on the list ahead of him too...he was a very special player IMO only Borque, Potvin and maybe Harvey should be considered above him.   No matter what method of points adjusted - his stats would be eye popping in today’s standards.   And is considered by all pro rankings as a top ten skater all-time.   Without a redline and extra pass in today’s game he’d easily get 100 points in his prime on a mediocre team.    Only player I’ve seen game a lot of speed while gliding.   In his own words “I look back at old games they’re showing these days and yeah, I had a pretty decent stride “..   like Gretzky modest to a fault.   You don’t score 48 goals in a season in the NHL as a defenseman - regardless of era- without having some sick skills.   He was for awhile at least, the second coming of Orr.   Back then it seemed like more would come.   Funny thing.... not yet.   And sorry Lidstrom, you might be the perfect human, but no way would I pick Lidstrom before Coffey (having watched them both).   Coffey scored more points in one decade then anyone else ... more then anyone in the 2000’s, and almost twice as many as Lidstrom the leading scorer for D’s in the 2000’s.   I’m glad a lot of folks on here got to see Lidstrom.   Because they know what a top ten guy should look like.    But I’m not that sure many folks who’ve been around to see the best of the 70-90’s would put him ahead of Coffey, Borque and Potvin ... but I get that they would - because when you see greatness it’s hard to imagine that better players existed.   Which you’ve for sure done as well with Red Kelly and Shore.   
 

Id have a tough choice between Al Mac and Lidstrom personally.   If I had to pick one who to choose.   

I think as a young'un, I used to value penalty minutes as a positive stat, but I now feel that it's a metric for the bad side of what we like about guys who take penalties, physicality. I find some of the better metrics to find tough guys are things like number of fighting majors, hits, and penalties drawn (making the opponents take penalties).

 

That aside, I thought I'd mention that I think Potvin would at least tie or if not even beat Lidstrom on my list if he'd played as long as Lidstrom. It's truly a shame he had to retire so early with such incredible numbers. I'm just glad he made it to 1000 games unlike Orr.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, -AJ- said:

I think has a young'un, I used to value penalty minutes as a positive stat, but I now feel that it's a metric for the bad side of what we like about guys who take penalties, physicality. I find some of the better metrics to find tough guys are things like number of fighting majors, hits, and penalties drawn (making the opponents take penalties).

 

That aside, I thought I'd mention that I think Potvin would at least tie or if not even beat Lidstrom on my list if he'd played as long as Lidstrom. It's truly a shame he had to retire so early with such incredible numbers. I'm just glad he made it to 1000 games unlike Orr.

Hey no worries.  After Orr it’s splitting hairs with Lidstrom, Coffey, Borque, Potvin, Harvey and  Robinson ... Potvin didn’t start until he was 20 because of the draft rules back then, and after 15 years plus a few seasons of playoff hockey (record 19 consecutive series, plus plus) he was done which is understandable.  For sure he’d have added another 160 or so games if he started at 18 which he would have definitely been capable of given the instant impact he had on his club and the league his first year.    Lidstrom’s longevity had a lot to do with how he played the game - pretty much as perfectly as you could do it.   No he didn’t shine as bright as others but he did it for a long time at an elite level — and belongs in a small group of guys after Orr.   For me it’s more about who was better of those against their peers at the same time that deserves the most recognition.   Potvin and Robinson carried the Orr torch - Coffey, Borque took of from there -Leetch,  Chelios, Blake, MacInnis in the mix until Lidstrom got his turn with Pronger and Niedermayer,  still in the mix.  

[RUPERTKBD]

On 11/30/2020 at 4:23 PM, IBatch said:

Polls over folks.   Topped off with good old wooden stick all-star power hitter Al MacInnis at number 10 (and for sure deserving of the honours).   Thanks for playing everyone, was fun.   Going to stop here (for now).  
 

Anyone who wants to make a list and compare my personal one would be something like this (not favourite - so far that’s still Coffey but admit he wasn’t the best). 
 

1.  Orr.

 

Then in no particular order:

 

Harvey, Shore, Potvin, Robinson, Bourque and Coffey

 

MacInnis, Lidstrom, Leetch, Park. 
 

HM:  Chelios and Pronger. 

I like the list, but I would add Slava Fetisov in the second echelon...

[IBatch]

On 12/26/2020 at 8:06 PM, RUPERTKBD said:

I like the list, but I would add Slava Fetisov in the second echelon...

I wish I had more to go off other then 87 Canada cup and his time in NJ and especially late in his career in Detroit.   But for sure he’s a legend.    His best teammate’s that finished their careers in the NHL was definitely a time worthy of discussion.   The Red Army for sure produced some of the best athletes ever.   And I’m glad Vancouver tapped into that well with Larionov and Bure.    Also a lot of history between USSR and Russia and Canada ....  culminating in what can only be called a rumble irruption with Fluery at the WJ’s ... Krutov was a dud - but Larionov wasn’t ... and two generations down at least let the western world see how truly amazing these guys really were with Bure, Federov and Mogilny.    It’s definitely  possible  if Fetisov spent his entire career in the NHL that he’d be up there in that echelon just below Orr too. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by IBatch

[RUPERTKBD]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

I wish I had more to go off other then 87 Canada cup and his time in NJ and especially late in his career in Detroit.   But for sure he’s a legend.    His best teammate’s that finished their careers in the NHL was definitely a time worthy of discussion.   The Red Army for sure produced some of the best athletes ever.   And I’m glad Vancouver tapped into that well with Larionov and Bure.    Also a lot of history between USSR and Russia and Canada ....  culminating in what can only be called a rumble irruption with Fluery at the WJ’s ... Makarov was a dud - but Larionov wasn’t ... and two generations down at least let the western world see how truly amazing these guys really were with Bure, Federov and Mogilny.    It’s definitely  possible  if Fetisov spent his entire career in the NHL that he’d be up there in that echelon just below Orr too. 

Fetisov played in the NHL as well. 11 seasons for the Devils and the Red Wings. At 37 years old, he played 69 games, scored 42 points and was plus 37 in Detroit.

 

Not only was Fetisov underrated, Igor Larionov says that his full time defense partner, Alexei Kasatonov was almost as good and belongs in the same category as Fetisov. It's just that he kind of lived and played in the shadow of his more famous partner. (Sort of the Brad Park of Russia)

 

BTW: Makarov wasn't really a bust. He had some good seasons in Calgary. Vladimir Krutov was the bust. Basically, he was used the the military style in Russia of being told when and what to eat, when to go to bed, etc....Once he got to North America and discovered hot dogs, it was all over....

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Fetisov played in the NHL as well. 11 seasons for the Devils and the Red Wings. At 37 years old, he played 69 games, scored 42 points and was plus 37 in Detroit.

 

Not only was Fetisov underrated, Igor Larionov says that his full time defense partner, Alexei Kasatonov was almost as good and belongs in the same category as Fetisov. It's just that he kind of lived and played in the shadow of his more famous partner. (Sort of the Brad Park of Russia)

 

BTW: Makarov wasn't really a bust. He had some good seasons in Calgary. Vladimir Krutov was the bust. Basically, he was used the the military style in Russia of being told when and what to eat, when to go to bed, etc....Once he got to North America and discovered hot dogs, it was all over....

Sorry yes Krutov was who I meant to say - Makarov won the Calder if I remember and was an incredible leader in SJ in his thirties.  I think you misunderstood my post.   I only have memories of Fetisov in his international play before he joined the devils - and later especially in Detroit.   And the guy your talking about was Konstantinov - a viscous checker (think Peca but on defense), and incredible two-way defenseman ahead of Lidstrom in their depth chart at the time.   He was part of made the famous Russian five in Detroit - and were ruthless and tough to play against - I remember that much.    Basically one line of Russians with Kozlov and Larianov, Federov making their Detroit’s top six unbelievable at the time.    Basically coached themselves in practice.    To be clearer I don’t know much about Fetisov before 87 - his red army years other then what I can read about him.   But I do know that the Big Red Machine made three or four generations of amazing players - and he’s at the tippy - top of their D’s.   Losing Konstantinov was a huge blow for the Wings. 
 

Paraphrased from Shanny “ that 2002 was for sure loaded.   But they had better have beat the 97-98 teams in four or they’d be limping and broken in seven...those were some mean teams.  Used to pick one star on the other team - and knock them out of the series...Vlady...we’d be up 6-1 in nothing regular season game and with a few minutes left he’d stand up their star and knock him up and instead of drinking the beer we’d be icing out knuckle’s...meanest team I’ve ever played on” 

[RUPERTKBD]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Sorry yes Krutov was who I meant to say - Makarov won the Calder if I remember and was an incredible leader in SJ in his thirties.  I think you misunderstood my post.   I only have memories of Fetisov in his international play before he joined the devils - and later especially in Detroit.   And the guy your talking about was Konstantinov - a viscous checker (think Peca but on defense), and incredible two-way defenseman ahead of Lidstrom in their depth chart at the time.   He was part of made the famous Russian five in Detroit - and were ruthless and tough to play against - I remember that much.    Basically one line of Russians with Kozlov and Larianov, Federov making their Detroit’s top six unbelievable at the time.    Basically coached themselves in practice.    To be clearer I don’t know much about Fetisov before 87 - his red army years other then what I can read about him.   But I do know that the Big Red Machine made three or four generations of amazing players - and he’s at the tippy - top of their D’s.   Losing Konstantinov was a huge blow for the Wings. 
 

Paraphrased from Shanny “ that 2002 was for sure loaded.   But they had better have beat the 97-98 teams in four or they’d be limping and broken in seven...those were some mean teams.  Used to pick one star on the other team - and knock them out of the series...Vlady...we’d be up 6-1 in nothing regular season game and with a few minutes left he’d stand up their star and knock him up and instead of drinking the beer we’d be icing out knuckle’s...meanest team I’ve ever played on” 

Actually, it's not.

 

Kasatonov, was Fetisov's defense partner on the Red Army team (AKA CSKA Moscow) and a great player in his own right.

 

The Russians deployed a five man unit in those days, and the line of Larionov, Makarov, Krutov at forward, with Fetisov and Kasatonov on defense, was nicknamed the "Green Unit". (because they wore green sweaters in practice) It was Kasatonov, as the defacto #2 defender on that unit who Larionov thought was completely underrated.

 

The three forwards were called the KLM line and because in NA we don't generally use 5 man units, this eventually overshadowed the Green Unit nickname.

 

The "Russian Five" was a different thing altogether. It was the 5 guys you mentioned, when they were deployed as a unit in Detroit.

[IBatch]

23 hours ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Actually, it's not.

 

Kasatonov, was Fetisov's defense partner on the Red Army team (AKA CSKA Moscow) and a great player in his own right.

 

The Russians deployed a five man unit in those days, and the line of Larionov, Makarov, Krutov at forward, with Fetisov and Kasatonov on defense, was nicknamed the "Green Unit". (because they wore green sweaters in practice) It was Kasatonov, as the defacto #2 defender on that unit who Larionov thought was completely underrated.

 

The three forwards were called the KLM line and because in NA we don't generally use 5 man units, this eventually overshadowed the Green Unit nickname.

 

The "Russian Five" was a different thing altogether. It was the 5 guys you mentioned, when they were deployed as a unit in Detroit.

Gotcha.   Thought you were talking about Fetisov in Detroit with the Russian five ... Konstantinov was the Norris runner up the year his career ended, and top four the year before.    Like I said, aside from the Canada Cup 87 and NHL time later I don’t have much to go with Fetisov aside from that.    Fetisov and Borque were listed as the MVP defender’s.. I’m sure Larionov comments are accurate but don’t have a reference so can’t comment.    Lidstrom took over as Detroit’s best D after the accident and the rest is history.    Listed as THN 101 best D all-time ... no mention of Kasatonov in there, probably should be though. 
 

Edit:  Found a quote from Ken Holland about Konstantinov “it took a couple of years but with our run to the cup final in 95 and winning the cup in 97, people were starting to recognize that he was one of the top defenseman in the world.  I think he could have been regarded as the best defenseman in the NHL for a long time, his status in the NHL at the time was beyond Nick Lidstrom’s”....

Edited December 28, 2020 by IBatch