Jump to content
The Official Site of the Vancouver Canucks
Canucks Community

Coronavirus outbreak


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Simulation said:

@thedestroyerofworlds if what you're saying is none of the vaccines skipped any processes, then genuinely asking - why are they all labelled as "emergency use"?

respectfully, the only processes truly skipped are the red tape that normally holds something up for years.  The term "emergency use" is also on every seasonal flu shot as well.

 

He is right.  Anecdotal evidence is not in fact evidence.  More people will die from peanut related allergies this month in canada than will die or succumb to side effects from the world wide administration of the combined covid vaccine treatments.

 

Edit*. Also, keep in mind I am anti needle.  Not anti vaxx, like a severe crippling phobia of needles yet I will still get one when our time slot is available

Edited by Warhippy
  • Hydration 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Simulation said:

@thedestroyerofworlds if what you're saying is none of the vaccines skipped any processes, then genuinely asking - why are they all labelled as "emergency use"?

You can argue that with the high infection rates we are seeing, we are sort of in an emergency.  We've administered millions upon millions of doses of each kind.  The number of deaths from these doses are infinitesimally small.  People take all kinds of drugs for hypertension, diabetes which have much worse side effects yet they don't think twice.  The issue is that while those drugs are personal to the individual, vaccines only work if the majority of the population takes them.  Don't overthink things.  Remember we are all in this together.  

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

respectfully, the only processes truly skipped are the red tape that normally holds something up for years.  The term "emergency use" is also on every seasonal flu shot as well.

 

He is right.  Anecdotal evidence is not in fact evidence.  More people will die from peanut related allergies this month in canada than will die or succumb to side effects from the world wide administration of the combined covid vaccine treatments.


sorry but I have to disagree with you undermining the scientific process and standards by calling it “red tape”. This isn’t some spellcheck red tape, it’s for long term effects which has been the norm for vaccines. Same response to what @thedestroyerofworlds said about having tested on animals, having tested in under a year and shutting the door by no historic standards means all stones have been left unturned. It went from step 1 to 2 to 3 to 10. There’s no way that sort of “red tape” means you’ve figured out long term effects - it’s actually been completely ignored/skipped for better/worse.

 

and also @Warhippy comparing the flu to COVID is pretty whacko wouldn’t you say?

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Yes there is.

 

Beauracracy  or however it is spelled

 

Feds by the vaccine.  Distribute it to provinces.  provinces distribute it to regional health boards.  regiuonal health boards distribute to hospitals and pharmacies.  none of which are equipped to handle the storage.  all of which have different and varying rules.

 

It's kind of a mess

It's got nothing to do with how the distribution is set up, it's simply because we are not a vaccine producing country.  Therefore we have to wait for vaccines to get to us.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Simulation said:


sorry but I have to disagree with you undermining the scientific process and standards by calling it “red tape”. This isn’t some spellcheck red tape, it’s for long term effects which has been the norm for vaccines. Same response to what @thedestroyerofworlds said about having tested on animals, having tested in under a year and shutting the door by no historic standards means all stones have been left unturned. It went from step 1 to 2 to 3 to 10. There’s no way that sort of “red tape” means you’ve figured out long term effects - it’s actually been completely ignored/skipped for better/worse.

 

and also @Warhippy comparing the flu to COVID is pretty whacko wouldn’t you say?

This has been so thoroughly debunked it's not worth the argument

  • Thanks 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, stawns said:

This has been so thoroughly debunked it's not worth the argument

Haven’t been here for any of that but I’ll just say the SARS covid outbreak of 2003 disagree(their vaccine attempts)

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll try not to be disparaging in my remarks but the last paragraph in your original post pretty much tells me everything I need to know about how you feel about this virus.  First of all, you say you've looked at the numbers and percentages and have come to the conclusion that Covid isn't as serious as you first thought it was.  You do realize that mortality stats on Covid are the result of unprecedented worldwide restrictions used to combat this virus don't you?.  You don't want to see the true picture if nothing was done.

 

Also you are concerned with the possible long term effects of vaccines.  You do know that a portion of the people who had been infected with Covid have what we call "long hauler syndrome"  right?  

 

Lastly, you say you are young and relatively healthy and convinced that you can survive or not be affected by getting Covid.  Perhaps, but are you willing to bet your life on that?  When you hear about perfectly fit and healthy athletes dying from Covid are you willing to take that chance?  How many of the half a million people that have died in the US said exactly the same thing?  These new variants don't play the age game.  The longer we are in this, the greater the possibility that more lethal variants show up.  Not trying to convince you either way but please note that your are preaching to the wrong crowd here.

 

Edited by coho8888
  • Hydration 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, coho8888 said:

I'll try not to be disparaging in my remarks but the last paragraph in your original post pretty much tells me everything I need to know about how you feel about this virus.  First of all, you say you've looked at the numbers and percentages and have come to the conclusion that Covid isn't as serious as you first thought it was.  You do realize that mortality stats on Covid are the result of unprecedented worldwide restrictions used to combat this virus don't you?.  You don't want to see the true picture if nothing was done.

 

Also you are concerned with the possible long term effects of vaccines.  You do know that a portion of the people who had been infected with Covid have what we call "long hauler syndrome"  right?  

 

Lastly, you say you are young and relatively healthy and convinced that you can survive or not be affect by getting Covid.  Perhaps, but are you willing to bet your life on that?  When you hear about perfectly fit and healthy athletes dying from Covid are you willing to take that chance?  How many of the half a million people that have died in the US said exactly the same thing?  These new variants don't play the age game.  The longer we are in this, the greater the possibility that more lethal variants show up.  Not trying to convince you either way but please note that your are preaching to the wrong crowd here.

 

I’m respectful of you (and the others) for the civil dialogue shown, not disparaging at all!

 

Bolded 1 - hypothetical game. One can say for all the cases not confirmed/tested which haven’t been taken into account. Also, restrictions(lockdowns) more or less not being able to stop the inevitable when comparing places that are open to not. & I do acknowledge New Zealand’s early and impressive plan, that’s the way most places should have done it from the get go. As a result, there’s virtually too many loose ends to capture with this subjectiveness in opening/closing things every couple weeks.

 

2nd paragraph - yes I do and they say most of the those symptoms apply to people with underlying or chronic medical conditions.

 

Yes there are “athletes” that suffer from covid whether it be effects or a very unlikely death. When it comes to athletes, there’s no hard data showing why perfectly “fit” athletes tend to be down under the weather. A lot of early predictions have been made that just b/c they are athletes or fit doesn’t mean they’re necessarily healthy. Physically yes but internally/immune system/underlying conditions, that can’t be overlooked simply due to the fact they are “athletes”. Also, that’s their livelihoods. When in playing season, they are literally playing to the point of exhaustion and not well rested depending on the ground of their schedules. The data’s not there but maybe there’s some sort of correlation to be made with covid and it’s effects when it enters an “athlete” when they’re nowhere near in a fully recovered state. Yes I’m sure there are those that get effected when fully fit/recovered, that’s just how things are in the world. That’s why some people have adverse reactions to vaccines or to the virus itself. I can also say why these same “perfectly fit” athletes are having to take days off and be away from their teams after having received their vaccine dose. It’s just the reality of things but not the norm. Said athletes feeling the effects of covid isn’t the norm amongst all professional athletes, just as it isn’t for what, 98 or 99% of the global population. It’s life, it’s just the odds, and it really sucks for those who don’t have fortune on their side at those times for whatever reason(even if they are healthy and all). Yes I’m aware diff variants reportedly hit and effect people differently compared to other strains. And yep acknowledged - I’m not trying to preach or convince anyone either, just sharing my personal reasons and thoughts :]

  • Hydration 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Simulation said:


sorry but I have to disagree with you undermining the scientific process and standards by calling it “red tape”. This isn’t some spellcheck red tape, it’s for long term effects which has been the norm for vaccines. Same response to what @thedestroyerofworlds said about having tested on animals, having tested in under a year and shutting the door by no historic standards means all stones have been left unturned. It went from step 1 to 2 to 3 to 10. There’s no way that sort of “red tape” means you’ve figured out long term effects - it’s actually been completely ignored/skipped for better/worse.

 

and also @Warhippy comparing the flu to COVID is pretty whacko wouldn’t you say?

You obviously have no idea what levels of nonsense red tape are existing in the standard creation of and implementation of medical trials.  A specific form of medicine can be ready for clinical trials but literally be held up for years while they get simple signatures from government officials and health boards to distribute.

 

When you have EVERY single lab in the world plus unlimited money and a green light things happen very VERY fast.

 

Also, as for the bolded...see below.

2 hours ago, Warhippy said:

The term "emergency use" is also on every seasonal flu shot as well.

 

He is right.  Anecdotal evidence is not in fact evidence.  More people will die from peanut related allergies this month in canada than will die or succumb to side effects from the world wide administration of the combined covid vaccine treatments.

YOU mentioned the term "emergency use"

 

I simply stated that even your every day seasonal flu shot deliveries say "emergency use only"

 

There is no comparison so you can stow the dramatic jump to conclusions please.  I'll end by once again saying, anecdotal evidence and opinion are not in fact scientific proof or fact.

  • Thanks 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Simulation said:

just sharing my personal reasons and thoughts :]

Still not proof or evidence.

 

Viral infections and influenza attack and affect everyone differently.  New variants are proving to have far more severe effects on younger individuals than the original Cov-SARS 19 virus.  The P1 variant seems to affect people in a 40 and under category while the south African strain is showing evidence towards long term cardiovascular damage.  Both new variants have higher infection rates than the original strain and are seeming to travel equally as well in warmer weather as the original strain did in colder weather which negates the belief of a recession as the temperatures climb.

 

You are entitled to say no to having a vaccine you do not desire.

 

But,

 

Please understand that as private business and national points of entry in foreign nations start requiring you to produce a health passport verifying proof of vaccination that it is entirely your choice to not be allowed to utilize those businesses or visit those nations.  You are well within your rights to avoid having a shot as it is your personal choice.  But these countries and businesses also have a right to deny you access; s does the government at all levels to withhold or disallow you from services and locations without having said proof.

Edited by Warhippy
  • Thanks 2
  • Hydration 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Still not proof or evidence.

 

Please understand that as private business and national points of entry in foreign nations start requiring you to produce a health passport verifying proof of vaccination that it is entirely your choice to not be allowed to utilize those businesses or visit those nations.  You are well within your rights to avoid having a shot as it is your personal choice.  But these countries and businesses also have a right to deny you access.

Proof or evidence of what exactly?

 

Yes I do. Lots of places are requesting a negative COVID test which would be fine with me. These vaccine “passports” I hope don’t become a thing, at least permanently (wouldn’t care if it’s just for the short term future in certain places, I’d gladly just not go). Eery sci-fi film vibes, and it’s usually never a good thing in those movies haha. It’s quite funny to think certain places would want a proof of vaccination over a negative covid result considering the latter could be positive even if you do get the vaccine.  

  • RoughGame 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Simulation said:

Proof or evidence of what exactly?

 

Yes I do. Lots of places are requesting a negative COVID test which would be fine with me. These vaccine “passports” I hope don’t become a thing, at least permanently (wouldn’t care if it’s just for the short term future in certain places, I’d gladly just not go). Eery sci-fi film vibes, and it’s usually never a good thing in those movies haha. It’s quite funny to think certain places would want a proof of vaccination over a negative covid result considering the latter could be positive even if you do get the vaccine.  

i was revising and editing my post.  

 

These passports ARE in fact a thing and have been for some time.  If you have children in BC you have a health passport for them already, it is not new.  

 

It also will not be short term, we're looking at the next 5-10 years minimum.  Businesses and nations, as well as government institutions requiring you to produce or prove proof of vaccination to utilize them.

 

Yes there can still be transmission with the vaccine.  My wife and I used contraceptives.  Me condoms, her birth control still had a child.  But still frigging used them regardless.  It's really that simple.

  • Hydration 2
  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Warhippy said:

i was revising and editing my post.  

 

These passports ARE in fact a thing and have been for some time.  If you have children in BC you have a health passport for them already, it is not new.  

 

It also will not be short term, we're looking at the next 5-10 years minimum.  Businesses and nations, as well as government institutions requiring you to produce or prove proof of vaccination to utilize them.

 

Yes there can still be transmission with the vaccine.  My wife and I used contraceptives.  Me condoms, her birth control still had a child.  But still frigging used them regardless.  It's really as simple as that, even IF there's a small chance you still protect yourself and your loved ones.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

One of my wife's coworker got Covid-19.  He expanded his bubble during spring break.  We knew he was quarantined at home but just learned recently that it got bad enough for him to be sent to the hospital. 

 

:(

  • Sad 2
  • Huggy Bear 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, I told @Simulationthat all viewpoints are welcomed here, but it doesn't mean that they're not up for debate.

 

When you try and make the case that a worldwide pandemic that has killed almost 3 million people (so far) is not all that serious, you'd best be prepared for some pushback.

  • Upvote 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Sister-in-law coworker is a registered nurse.  She got Covid-19 when she was pregnant.  She got over it and everyone assumed the baby would have immunity to Covid-19.  She gave birth recently but the newborn has Covid-19. 

 

:sadno:

  • Sad 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Although the news media do their daily dance of flip flopping, this is some food for thought: 

 

Quote

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/canada-s-vaccine-hoarding-will-prolong-the-pandemic-globally-experts-say-1.5387855

Canada's vaccine hoarding will prolong the pandemic globally, experts say

TORONTO -- As frustration in Canada grows over a slow vaccine rollout, there are countries around the world that have yet to administer a single dose.

 

Canadians may look with envy at the U.S., U.K. and Israel, where large portions of the populations have been able to get their first dose of the vaccine, but there are at least 49 countries where less than one per cent of the population have received their first dose, and more who are reporting no vaccine data at all, according to data collected by OurWorldinData.org.

 

Experts worry that with so few countries approaching herd immunity by mass vaccination, COVID-19 might be here to stay and could give way to variants that could evade our current vaccines.

 

On a global scale, Canada ranks in the top 40 for the percentage of the population that has received their first dose, and that’s not so bad, says one expert.

 

“We’re actually doing very well if you put it in the global perspective,” Alison Thompson, a public health ethicist at the University of Toronto, told CTVNews.ca in a phone interview on Wednesday.

And globally, countries shouldn’t want to battle it out for the top spot.

 

“I wouldn’t want to be doing the best at it right now, because that would mean that you are behaving in a way that is so nationalistic that it’s just sidelining everybody else,” she added.

On the one hand, she said, it would be difficult for politicians to convince Canadians to give up their doses to lower-income countries, but that’s not the only issue.

“The other problem is that we have just primarily treated this as a problem for markets to solve,” she said. And, you know, just said ‘let's just do business as usual’, and allocate vaccines based on the ability to pay.”

 

THE PROBLEM WITH COVAX

 

COVAX was put in place to ensure equitable rollout of vaccines. Higher-income countries funded COVAX to help get vaccines to 92 lower-income countries around the world. Canada put $440 million towards the program, half to secure doses for countries in need and half to secure doses for Canadian citizens.

 

Canada drew backlash for drawing upon COVAX for 1.9 million AstraZeneca doses in the program's first allotment of vaccines. Some political leaders and experts called the decision unethical 

 

At the time of the COVAX controversy, Canada had provided first doses to more than 2 per cent of its population. As of April 13, the entire continent of Africa has provided first doses to 0.69 per cent of the 1.2 billion people living in African countries.

“This is a good example of vaccine nationalism,” said Thompson.

 

She said that despite helping fund COVAX, withdrawing from it erodes the government’s message of vaccine equity.

“I feel like that's undermined by the fact that we're now drawing from the correct supply to vaccinate our own citizens, so it's a bit of a mixed messaging in terms of where our priorities are,” she added.

 

The premise of a program such as COVAX is that every life is of equal value, but rich countries buying up millions of doses are not behaving in that way, Thompson said.

In many of the countries waiting on COVID-19 vaccines, they’re also facing other public health crises like Ebola, tuberculosis and HIV.

 

“That also speaks to the legacy of colonialism and racism and these structural inequities that are really, really impacting global health,” she added.

 

This could have been an opportunity for global governance in the vaccine rollout, said Thompson.

 

“With the exception of COVAX and just leaving it up to individual countries to determine how philanthropic they want to be, we really failed in terms of having any kind of global governance over the distribution, and even the manufacturing of vaccines,” she said.

The World Health Organization may seem like the natural home for this type of program, but Thompson said they no longer have the pull that they once held.

 

“They’ve had some black eyes recently,” said Thomspon. “With Trump saying that he’s pulling out of the WHO, they really kind of lack the clout anymore to be able to pull that off.

“This points to a real gap in terms of global governance and the authority of the WHO to sort of control this kind of situation, and obviously that has a lot to do with the power of international pharmaceutical companies as well.”

 

VACCINE HOARDING

 

Even with a program like COVAX in place, rich countries, like Canada are buying up doses.

 

“The truth is, 10 of the richest countries in the world have really hoarded about 80 per cent of the vaccines,” Dr. Ivar Mendez, Provincial Head of Surgery at theUniversity of Saskatchewan and Saskatchewan Health Authority, told CTVNews.ca in a phone interview on Wednesday.

 

He said that the rate of vaccination in high-income countries is one in four or five, whereas in lower-income countries, like Bolivia where he is doing COVID-19 work, the rate is one in 500.

 

“We haven’t resolved this issue at a global level,” he said. “Part of the resolution is a more equitable distribution of vaccines around the world, because what is hindering us in the variants and those will be coming from the low-resource countries.”

Mendez said that when vaccine rollouts hit a snag in high-income countries, doses meant for low-income countries are often redirected to make up for the shortages.

 

Lower-income countries are also relying on vaccines that haven’t faced the same rigorous trials as those approved for emergency use by Health Canada. In Bolivia, they’re using the Chinese Sinopharm vaccine and Russia's Sputnik V.

 

“Poor countries are being pushed to vaccines that have not met the standards that are demanded by rich countries,” he said. “When in poor countries, there is absolutely no vaccine and you will take anything, rather than nothing, you know, high-resource countries have the luxury of choosing.”

 

Countries including Denmark and even Canada are able to pause use of the AstraZeneca vaccine without causing too many issues for their vaccine rollout because they can choose to purchase more doses of a different vaccine.

 

“Again, this is inequity. High resource countries choose the vaccine that they want, poor countries may be left with the vaccines that may not be as effective, and where the scientific data is yet to be seen, and they get hit harder and harder every time.”

 

With variants spreading globally, and vaccine rollouts chugging along, there’s the risk that more variants and mutations will take hold and be able to evade the current vaccines.

 

“Without equity on vaccination, we won’t be able to get out of this pandemic,” he said.

“If COVID-19 continues to rampage through the global south unchecked by mass vaccination, this radically increases the likelihood of yet more variants of concern emerging. There's always the possibility that the existing vaccines will not provide sufficient protection against future variants,” Bianca Dahl, a medical anthropologist with the University of Toronto, told CTVNews.ca in an email on Wednesday.

 

It doesn’t help that some countries are hoarding doses.

 

“Despite how slow Canada's vaccine rollout has been compared to the US, UK, Israel, and other countries, we are the single worst culprit of vaccine hoarding worldwide -- having ordered enough vaccines to inoculate our population five times over,” said Dahl.

Mendez said that this behaviour is self-defeating, since new variants will spread quickly in countries with fewer people inoculated, and borders won’t stop them from spreading.

 

For Dahl, inequitable vaccine rollouts around the world are largely leaving people of colour unvaccinated.

 

“When experts talk about vaccine apartheid, this isn't just a metaphor. It's a description of what amounts to racial segregation in access to and uptake of the vaccines, on both a global and local scale. If vaccine apartheid is not aggressively combatted, the COVID-19 pandemic will continue morphing into a disease primarily targeting people of colour across the globe,” said Dahl.

Canada has said it will donate its extra doses to countries in need, but there is currently no clear timeline on when that will happen. But, it’s not as simple as giving doses to other countries.

 

“This isn't just a question of simply getting doses to those countries, either. South Africa reportedly paid over twice as much as the European Union for the AstraZeneca vaccine. This adds to the inequities and the burden of this disease worldwide,” Dahl added.

In Canada, the vaccine rollout is targeting those who are most vulnerable to COVID-19 first, and for Dahl, this is how a global vaccination effort should work as well.

 

“We should be ensuring that all people worldwide who are most vulnerable are protected first,” she said. “The rapid spread of this pandemic has clearly demonstrated how interconnected the world is. Leaving the most vulnerable populations and countries to languish is in nobody's best interest.”

 

PHARMACEUTICAL FIRMS' ROLE

 

Part of the problem is that these vaccines are patented, preventing other companies from manufacturing them to boost supply around the world.

 

“A crucial first step is that we need to eliminate the intellectual property rights limitations on the manufacture of vaccines and on other scientific knowledge about COVID-19,” she said.

 

Until we can boost manufacturing of the vaccine, supply will struggle to keep up with global demand.

 

“We know from the HIV/AIDS epidemic that protecting pharmaceutical companies' intellectual property rights results in a body count: we need to mobilize all possible resources to manufacture and distribute these vaccines,” said Dahl.

Lower-income countries are calling for the ability to make the vaccines themselves, but patents are preventing that from happening.

 

“There's a call by the poorer countries to make the manufacturing process available to everybody, rather than being just secrets hidden from different companies,” said Mendez.

This stems from a deeper issue of how governments allow pharmaceutical companies to work.

 

“This is symptomatic of a much bigger problem with how we treat pharmaceutical products as private commodities instead of global public goods,” said Thompson. “That is the legacy of colonialism, and market failures and neoliberal policies around how we let these huge corporations behave.”

 

EQUITABLE VACCINE ROLLOUTS

 

Experts agree that the only way to end this pandemic is by achieving herd immunity through vaccination, but vaccine rollouts need a global lens.

 

“By definition a pandemic is a global event, and global events need global solutions,” Mendez said.

By prioritizing one population over another, countries are putting higher value on those lives.

 

“At the end of the day we are saying that Canadian lives are more important than the lives of other people in other countries where they can't access vaccines,” said Thompson.

 

With enough doses to vaccinate 154 million people having been ordered, Canada is directly contributing to the issue.

 

“The lower-income countries that are most harmed by vaccine nationalism and vaccine apartheid are also disproportionately the places that have been harmed by the legacies of colonialism and predatory structural adjustment policies,” said Dahl. “We in Canada are morally complicit in this problem.”

Gives some inclination to think twice before you start complaining that the vaccine roll-out is too slow.

Edited by KoreanHockeyFan
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...