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10 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

Yeah, it’s amazing how well China has done during this pandemic, or at least that is what they are telling us.

But they sure &^@#ed up the rest of us, I don’t think this should be forgotten.

Especially how CCP has acted during this crisis.

Agreed. And how they screwed over their own people as well. Kept them in the dark. Hopefully brave people like Li Wenliang are never forgotten either for what they tried to do, and the price they paid for doing so.

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20 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Of course, the vile CCP that brought this pandemic to the rest of the world would mock a neighboring country's suffering due to it. 

 

Hopefully once the worst of this horrible pandemic passes, the governments of the world remember how Jinping and his disgusting political party acted, including failing to warn other countries of the impending danger. Even going as far as silencing Chinese citizens (shocker!) who attempted to let others know. 

They don't care. You can shout all your want.   They have the hammer. That's why we have two Canadians held hostage for doing a stupid favor for trump.  

 

The only way forward is to improve dialog. For global biosecurity, things can improve by focusing on more transparent warning systems, having foreigners working in China with wild life trade surveillance, share data etc. Attacking them on Xinjiang, HK or Taiwan will go no where. They value national (party) security over human rights. 

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2 minutes ago, Jaimito said:

They don't care. You can shout all your want.   They have the hammer. That's why we have two Canadians held hostage for doing a stupid favor for trump.  

 

The only way forward is to improve dialog. For global biosecurity, things can improve by focusing on more transparent warning systems, having foreigners working in China with wild life trade surveillance, share data etc. Attacking them on Xinjiang, HK or Taiwan will go no where. They value national (party) security over human rights. 

Well aware of how the CCP operates and their initiatives and intended outcomes. They aren't impervious though, especially when they betray their own people. Improving dialog is one tool, but it's quite evident in it's "relationship" with Australia, how the CCP seeks to control the dialog and subvert it to meet only it's needs. So "improving" dialog is really a mere bandaid solution when dealing with this sociopathic regime, and not the whole of the solution. 

 

Those transparent warning systems were supposed to be in place and functional after the SARS outbreak years ago. Clearly that wasn't implemented to the degree that it should have been. Sharing data only works when all the data is shared. 

 

They do value national security over human rights, I agree. It reminds me of another national socialist party who did so before. The CCP have rounded up millions of their own citizens and placed them in "re-education" camps, to what end it still to be determined.  

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17 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

Yeah, it’s amazing how well China has done during this pandemic, or at least that is what they are telling us.

But they sure &^@#ed up the rest of us, I don’t think this should be forgotten.

Especially how CCP has acted during this crisis.

They didn't learn from their mistake in 2003 SARS.   So unfortunate. They invested millions into virus and wildlife research. Published many good and important research on coronaviruses. Banned wild life trade for short time.  But in the end, it was still political failure that led to delayed action, cover-up and delayed dissemination of actual epidemiological data to the world to sound the alarm.  Their subsequent actions in Wuhan lockdown and country wide measures were effective and should be a model for future pandemics. But many other countries dismissed it as authoritarian. But in reality, they showed how a highly transmissable respiratory virus can be contained then eradicated in a country of 1.4 billion.  

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4 minutes ago, Jaimito said:

But in reality, they showed how a highly transmissable respiratory virus can be contained then eradicated in a country of 1.4 billion.  

Fear of being  sent away to " education" camps, or shot or run over by tanks can really get citizens to do what their told.

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9 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Well aware of how the CCP operates and their initiatives and intended outcomes. They aren't impervious though, especially when they betray their own people. Improving dialog is one tool, but it's quite evident in it's "relationship" with Australia, how the CCP seeks to control the dialog and subvert it to meet only it's needs. So "improving" dialog is really a mere bandaid solution when dealing with this sociopathic regime, and not the whole of the solution. 

 

Those transparent warning systems were supposed to be in place and functional after the SARS outbreak years ago. Clearly that wasn't implemented to the degree that it should have been. Sharing data only works when all the data is shared. 

 

They do value national security over human rights, I agree. It reminds me of another national socialist party who did so before. The CCP have rounded up millions of their own citizens and placed them in "re-education" camps, to what end it still to be determined.  

Agree.  

 

Although you wonder had US not pull out their cdc advisors in China months before the pandemic in 2019, if things would be different.  What ifs...

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-cdc-exclusiv-idUSKBN21910S

 

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11 minutes ago, gurn said:

Fear of being  sent away to " education" camps, or shot or run over by tanks can really get citizens to do what their told.

Yes. But on the ground most people do that because they believe it to be good for the society.  Not everyone are coerced to do the right thing. The political party was able to manipulate the messaging (despite screwing it up initially) and galvanize nationalism to fight the virus as the enemy. 

 

The failure of Trump response was not uniting Americans to fight the virus. They fought eachother instead. The timing couldn't be worse, with trump impeachment in progress in Jan 2020.  The proof of failed leadership is self evident. Highest death tolls are in US, Brazil and India.  UK not much better. All letters who thought the virus was no big deal. 

 

US is approx 8.6x Canadian pop, but 24x deaths so far.   As bad as Canadian response seems now, they still did far better than the US.  Lot of room for improvement for sure, eg protecting long term care homes. 

Edited by Jaimito
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Just now, Jaimito said:

Agree.  

 

Although you wonder had US not pull out their cdc advisors in China months before the pandemic in 2019, if things would be different.  What ifs...

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-cdc-exclusiv-idUSKBN21910S

 

While Linda Quick was embedded within the system over there, her capacity was as a trainer for epidemiologists. What her clearances were over there isn't mentioned in the article, therefore there is really no proof that her presence over there would have helped the situation at all. 

 

"Other sources told Reuters that Dr Quick was in an ideal position to be the eyes and ears on the ground for the US and other countries on the coronavirus outbreak, and might have alerted them to the growing threat weeks earlier.

 

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4 minutes ago, Jaimito said:

Yes. But on the ground most people do that because they believe it to be good for the society.

Just as here, in N.America, most people will do the right thing voluntarily, but over there those that don't follow the rules are dealt with a lot more harshly than a small monetary fine.

 

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1 minute ago, PhillipBlunt said:

While Linda Quick was embedded within the system over there, her capacity was as a trainer for epidemiologists. What her clearances were over there isn't mentioned in the article, therefore there is really no proof that her presence over there would have helped the situation at all. 

 

"Other sources told Reuters that Dr Quick was in an ideal position to be the eyes and ears on the ground for the US and other countries on the coronavirus outbreak, and might have alerted them to the growing threat weeks earlier.

 

Y, I think the official position from US is that it didn't matter.  But a better relations with China (US was and still is in a trade war with China), would have helped. 

 

Looking at what Taiwan did, I think having someone locally inside China was valuable. They didn't trust the official government reports and acted right away by sending a team of experts on an investigative mission to China in early January, 2020. 

 

"And despite poor relations with Beijing, Taiwan asked and received permission to send a team of experts to the mainland on a fact-finding mission Jan. 12.

 

“They didn’t let us see what they didn’t want us to see, but our experts sensed the situation was not optimistic,” government spokesperson Kolas Yotaka told NBC News."

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/what-taiwan-can-teach-world-fighting-coronavirus-n1153826

 

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1 minute ago, Jaimito said:

Y, I think the official position from US is that it didn't matter.  But a better relations with China (US was and still is in a trade war with China), would have helped. 

 

Looking at what Taiwan did, I think having someone locally inside China was valuable. They didn't trust the official government reports and acted right away by sending a team of experts on an investigative mission to China in early January, 2020. 

 

"And despite poor relations with Beijing, Taiwan asked and received permission to send a team of experts to the mainland on a fact-finding mission Jan. 12.

 

“They didn’t let us see what they didn’t want us to see, but our experts sensed the situation was not optimistic,” government spokesperson Kolas Yotaka told NBC News."

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/what-taiwan-can-teach-world-fighting-coronavirus-n1153826

 

I think the official US position was that they believed in the maturity of the program and that China had displayed excellent technical capability.

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42 minutes ago, Jaimito said:

They didn't learn from their mistake in 2003 SARS.   So unfortunate. They invested millions into virus and wildlife research. Published many good and important research on coronaviruses. Banned wild life trade for short time.  But in the end, it was still political failure that led to delayed action, cover-up and delayed dissemination of actual epidemiological data to the world to sound the alarm.  Their subsequent actions in Wuhan lockdown and country wide measures were effective and should be a model for future pandemics. But many other countries dismissed it as authoritarian. But in reality, they showed how a highly transmissable respiratory virus can be contained then eradicated in a country of 1.4 billion.  

I agree that their measures were very effective, but in Canada, U.S, Western Europe, Australia etc. those measures could never be implemented. Fortunately or unfortunately, we are not playing on same leveled field, as China does.

 

Few years before I was born, in March of 1972, pilgrim that went to Hajj brought back small pox to Yugoslavia.

As soon as disease started to spread and it killed 35 people, special measures were applied.

 

Martial law was declared, all borders sealed, travel stopped, gatherings and meetings banned.

Those that would break these risked spending years in prison or shot by the border guards.

In 2 months, entire population of 18 million was vaccinated, and by May outbreak has been stopped.

 

Even WHO described the reaction of the government, as one of the best ever in terms of disease outbreak.

But as with China, repercussions of not following orders were pretty severe.

 

 

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1 hour ago, gurn said:

Fear of being  sent away to " education" camps, or shot or run over by tanks can really get citizens to do what their told.

as opposed to the "kenney approach" where you spend years preaching a mistrust of government and then act suprised when the people you have been indoctrinating for years show mistrust in your own government.

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OK I registered weeks ago and still haven't got an appointment, what gives?  I followed the same steps as I did with my dad and he got an appointment after four days.

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Just now, Tre Mac said:

OK I registered weeks ago and still haven't got an appointment, what gives?  I followed the same steps as I did with my dad and he got an appointment after four days.

for the AZ?

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5 minutes ago, stawns said:

for the AZ?

Any, had a friend say they could smuggle me in for a Pfizer jab but I don't to jump the que even though I am pretty sure I am eligible for one (41yo)

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2 minutes ago, Tre Mac said:

Any, had a friend say they could smuggle me in for a Pfizer jab but I don't to jump the que even though I am pretty sure I am eligible for one (41yo)

at 41, you'll likely wait another couple of weeks I think.  Look for pop up clinics for the AZ.....Shopper's had one in Vernon on the weekend and my gf got hers that way.  No age restrictions or appointments necessary, just show up in time.

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1 hour ago, Tre Mac said:

Any, had a friend say they could smuggle me in for a Pfizer jab but I don't to jump the que even though I am pretty sure I am eligible for one (41yo)

You in BC?  I think they are still booking 50+ this Thursday. Hang in there, likely in a week or so. 

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56 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

I agree that their measures were very effective, but in Canada, U.S, Western Europe, Australia etc. those measures could never be implemented. Fortunately or unfortunately, we are not playing on same leveled field, as China does.

 

Few years before I was born, in March of 1972, pilgrim that went to Hajj brought back small pox to Yugoslavia.

As soon as disease started to spread and it killed 35 people, special measures were applied.

 

Martial law was declared, all borders sealed, travel stopped, gatherings and meetings banned.

Those that would break these risked spending years in prison or shot by the border guards.

In 2 months, entire population of 18 million was vaccinated, and by May outbreak has been stopped.

 

Even WHO described the reaction of the government, as one of the best ever in terms of disease outbreak.

But as with China, repercussions of not following orders were pretty severe.

 

 

For sure, some of the measures will not fly in democracies. But many things can be implemented, digital contact tracing, mass testing of entire city if needed, strict quarantine rules and travel etc. 

 

Australia did a pretty good job after some initial struggles. Now virtually covid zero.  NZ too.  Vietnam is a non island country that did well too. Singapore, South Korea. 

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