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On 6/22/2021 at 4:49 PM, PhillipBlunt said:

I think that had a hand in the spread, but the virus itself was much worse than Covid. Consider that there are over three times the amount of humans on Earth now, and that with transportation being omnipresent, the spread was far, far greater with Covid due to travel. 

I've heard from a reputable source that Spanish Influenza is estimated to have been only slightly more deadly than COVID. The difference is medical treatment. This becomes apparent when the medical system gets overwhelmed in a particular location (like Italy at the beginning of the pandemic, and India most recently), and deaths rise dramatically.

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With cases dropping and more and more people being fully vaccinated, we're left with the "vaccine hesitant" crowd, who might be prime targets for new variants....

 

It'll be a hard lesson, but the reliance of some on "herd immunity" might just lead to a bit of a culling of the herd....

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Normally I think the National Post is a garbage source, but seeing as this article isn't about politics, I think it might clear some things up:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/pfizer-is-not-superior-to-moderna-and-its-perfectly-okay-to-mix-covid-vaccines-experts-say/ar-AALnS96?li=AAggNb9
 

Quote

 

Dr. Fahad Razak was pulling into a Toronto vaccine centre last weekend when a woman, clearly frustrated about something, gestured for him to roll down his window. “They don’t have Pfizer,” the exasperated woman said. “They only have Moderna.”

Razak was puzzled by his encounter with the perfect stranger. “I’m surprised, and intrigued and curious about why there has been such a popular imagination, a fixation, on Pfizer as being superior to Moderna, when there is no evidence that I, or any scientist that I work with — and we’ve looked extensively — can find to support even the smallest claim that one is better than the other.”

 

While health authorities are reassuring Canadians that it’s safe to mix COVID-19 vaccines doses, and that doing so may even produce a more robust immune response, some appear to be rejecting Moderna for Pfizer.

Ontario pharmacies are reporting cancellations, walkouts, no-shows and lack of interest for Moderna, after Ontario and other provinces scaled up Moderna doses this week because of stalled Pfizer shipments. Not every pharmacy is struggling, but “we know that there is supply sitting still in pharmacies for Moderna,” Justin Bates, CEO of the Ontario Pharmacists Association said Wednesday.

 

Ontario has now received this week’s delayed Pfizer doses, and allocations are being sent to public health units, but with more Pfizer shipments expected to lag Moderna in coming weeks, Bates and others are calling for stronger public health messaging to clear up confusion about vaccine “interchangeability,” preferred brands and whether there is any downside to getting a second dose sooner than expected.

 

Razak, an internal medicine specialist at St. Michael’s Hospital in Toronto, is hopeful that only a small minority of the public views Pfizer as superior to Moderna. “There may be some brand recognition and recall happening,” he said. “I don’t know if that has influenced people’s perception.” His wife received AstraZeneca for her first dose, and, this past weekend, Moderna for her second. “I certainly would not be saying this publicly and doing something different for my family,” Razak said.

 

The no-shows and walkaways for Moderna don’t appear to be having a wide impact, infectious diseases physician Dr. Isaac Bogoch, a member of the province’s COVID-19 vaccine distribution task force, tweeted Tuesday. More than 207,800 COVID shots were administered in Ontario on Tuesday alone; most (88 per cent) were second doses.

But the brand shopping has health authorities across the country concerned about any reluctance to swap. The formulas may not be identical, but they are “extremely similar and it’s perfectly okay to get one dose of each,” Dr. Deena Hinshaw, Alberta’s chief medical officer of health, said in a series of tweets Monday. “We will do our best to make sure that we have both products available at our clinics, but sometimes that simply isn’t possible,” Dr. Bonnie Henry, British Columbia’s provincial health officer said.

It’s also crucial that anyone considering only one dose of any vaccine knows that one dose doesn’t quite cut it.

Early results from a Canadian study based on nearly 6,000 dried blood spot samples collected from Feb. 8 to May 17 show a “high degree of variability” in the level of antibodies produced by just a single shot of a COVID vaccine.

 

Approximately 10 per cent of people who reported being vaccinated with a single dose of an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna), and 30 per cent of those vaccinated with Oxford-AstraZeneca did not show signs of antibody levels “above thresholds differentiating them from the population at large,” meaning the unvaccinated, Dr. Philip Awadala, national scientific director of CanPath, which led the study, said in a statement.

A single dose of Pfizer or Moderna produced short-term antibody levels more than one-and-a-half times greater than those produced by AstraZeneca. Antibody levels in people with two doses of Pfizer or Moderna were almost twice as high as those after the first dose.

The early results don’t include people who received two doses of AstraZeneca.

 

In Quebec, people still need to wait eight weeks at least between doses, regardless of the vaccine.

In Ontario, people must wait a minimum of eight weeks after a first dose of AstraZeneca, but only a minimum of 28 days after a first dose of Pfizer of Moderna.

Pfizer and Moderna were formally authorized for use 21 and 28 days apart, respectively. But the choice of three weeks or four “wasn’t based on decades of vaccinology,” said McMaster University immunologist Dawn Bowdish. “It was based on, what’s the minimal amount of time you can squish doses together to get everyone protected?”

“Pilot data coming out says, yes, actually, if you wait a little longer between doses you get a little bit of a bump in your immune response,” Bowdish said. In March, Canada’s vaccine advisors said doses could be spaced up to four months apart. With growing vaccine supplies, and the Delta variant spreading, the advisory panel now says second doses should be given as soon as possible.

 

The risk with Delta is that it can sneak under, and partially dodge the immune response in people dosed only once. As of June 22, 67 per cent of Canada’s population had received one dose of a COVID vaccine, but just 20.7 per cent had two. The gap, Razak said, needs to be narrowed

“We need to go hard and fast” on vaccinations, agreed Bowdish, who is a Moderna times two recipient, and who would have been just as happy to have had a Moderna/Pfizer mix. “And I would remind people that every flu shot you’ve ever got, you’ve never known the manufacturer.” Booster shots are highly likely in the future, “and I suspect in the long term we will not care so much. Whatever one your local pharmacy is offering is the one you’ll probably get.”

 

TLDR?

 

Pfizer isn't any better or worse than Moderna......and go ahead and mix vaccines. :)

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1 hour ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Normally I think the National Post is a garbage source, but seeing as this article isn't about politics, I think it might clear some things up:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/pfizer-is-not-superior-to-moderna-and-its-perfectly-okay-to-mix-covid-vaccines-experts-say/ar-AALnS96?li=AAggNb9
 

TLDR?

 

Pfizer isn't any better or worse than Moderna......and go ahead and mix vaccines. :)

We'll all be getting a third dose soon enough anyway.  Either mRNA vaccine is fine with me, just like my first dose.

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8 hours ago, D-Money said:

I've heard from a reputable source that Spanish Influenza is estimated to have been only slightly more deadly than COVID. The difference is medical treatment. This becomes apparent when the medical system gets overwhelmed in a particular location (like Italy at the beginning of the pandemic, and India most recently), and deaths rise dramatically.

The major difference with the two are the age groups affected.

 

According to the CDC, in the United States,

 

"During the 1918 flu pandemic, “mortality was high in people younger than 5 years old, 20-40 years old, and 65 years and older. The high mortality in healthy people, including those in the 20-40 year age group, was a unique feature of this pandemic. With no vaccine to protect against influenza infection and no antibiotics to treat secondary bacterial infections that can be associated with influenza infections, control efforts worldwide were limited to non-pharmaceutical interventions

 

The 1918 influenza caused a cytokine storm in the bodies of healthy adults that was especially lethal, essentially the reactions of a healthy young immune system to the influenza ravaged the host and killed them quite quickly. 

 

The primary age group affected by Covid has been 65 years and older, and plenty of those people had comorbidities.

 

Both are horrible diseases though.

 

Advances in medicine have also been a major factor in stemming what could have been a much worse pandemic. 

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On 6/22/2021 at 6:19 PM, DonLever said:

Are people ok with mixing Pfizer and Moderna because there are not enough Pfizer for 2nd dose.  You are likely to get Moderna as 2nd dose  in the next week or so.

 

https://www.castanet.net/news/BC/337797/B-C-has-a-new-workhorse-vaccine-time-for-Team-Pfizer-to-drop-any-brand-loyalty

 

“If you are like me, and received Moderna as your first dose, you are now likely to receive Moderna as your second dose. But many, many people who received Pfizer as their first dose will receive Moderna as their second dose,” said Dix.

My gf mixed AZ and Pfizer

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3 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Had a buddy mix Johnny Walker Blue with Ginger Ale once....

 

....I mean, it was a blended Scotch, but still....:wacko:

It used to be common at wedding banquets in Chinese restaurants here in Vancouver for bottles of Johnny Walker Red (or if the hosts were feeling baller, Black) to be placed on the table by the hosts, and for the adults to mix it with Sprite or Coke.  This was in lieu of using the bar services of the restaurant.  Mind you, we're talking about 20+ years ago now.  I haven't been to a wedding at such a venue now since around 2000.

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3 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said:

The major difference with the two are the age groups affected.

 

According to the CDC, in the United States,

 

"During the 1918 flu pandemic, “mortality was high in people younger than 5 years old, 20-40 years old, and 65 years and older. The high mortality in healthy people, including those in the 20-40 year age group, was a unique feature of this pandemic. With no vaccine to protect against influenza infection and no antibiotics to treat secondary bacterial infections that can be associated with influenza infections, control efforts worldwide were limited to NON-PHARMACEUTICAL  interventions

 

The 1918 influenza caused a cytokine storm in the bodies of healthy adults that was especially lethal, essentially the reactions of a healthy young immune system to the influenza ravaged the host and killed them quite quickly. 

 

The primary age group affected by Covid has been 65 years and older, and plenty of those people had comorbidities.

 

Both are horrible diseases though.

 

Advances in medicine have also been a major factor in stemming what could have been a much worse pandemic. 

My grandfather got the Spanish flu while in the trenches of WW1. He drank a quart of motor oil get it over with quickly after watching what was happening to his fellow soldiers. Turns out he survived and to his last days he claimed the oil saved him. 

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10 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Had a buddy mix Johnny Walker Blue with Ginger Ale once....

 

....I mean, it was a blended Scotch, but still....:wacko:


My wife constantly mixes her metaphors and it drives me crazy. It leaves a sour taste in the eye of the beholder. :P

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7 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

It used to be common at wedding banquets in Chinese restaurants here in Vancouver for bottles of Johnny Walker Red (or if the hosts were feeling baller, Black) to be placed on the table by the hosts, and for the adults to mix it with Sprite or Coke.  This was in lieu of using the bar services of the restaurant.  Mind you, we're talking about 20+ years ago now.  I haven't been to a wedding at such a venue now since around 2000.

Yeah, Red or Black I could see....but Johnny Blue is super expensive....even though it is still a blend...

 

BCLC has is listed at just over $300 a bottle

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1 minute ago, 4petesake said:


My wife constantly mixes her metaphors and it drives me crazy. It leaves a sour taste in the eye of the beholder. :P

It's like Ricky says, "What goes around is all around".....

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2 hours ago, stawns said:

My gf mixed AZ and Pfizer

My wife and I did the same.

 

Neither of us felt anything from the first dose of AZ, but we've both been feeling crappy for a couple of days from dose 2 of the Pfizer.

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9 minutes ago, spur1 said:

My grandfather got the Spanish flu while in the trenches of WW1. He drank a quart of motor oil get it over with quickly after watching what was happening to his fellow soldiers. Turns out he survived and to his last days he claimed the oil saved him. 

Holy crap. That's insane. 

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5 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Yeah, Red or Black I could see....but Johnny Blue is super expensive....even though it is still a blend...

 

BCLC has is listed at just over $300 a bottle

I've tried all three before, and I think that the price is quite inflated for the Johnny Blue for what it gives.  Having said that, Johnny Red is vile, and Johnny Black is bearable in a pinch.  Johnny Blue is good, but not $300/bottle good (in comparison to the pricing of Johnny Black, for example).  Also, there are less expensive single malts that are better than Johnny Blue.

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11 minutes ago, D-Money said:

My wife and I did the same.

 

Neither of us felt anything from the first dose of AZ, but we've both been feeling crappy for a couple of days from dose 2 of the Pfizer.

my gf was opposite.  AZ knocked her down hard for a good three days.  She didn't feel anything on the pfizer shot

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6 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

I've tried all three before, and I think that the price is quite inflated for the Johnny Blue for what it gives.  Having said that, Johnny Red is vile, and Johnny Black is bearable in a pinch.  Johnny Blue is good, but not $300/bottle good (in comparison to the pricing of Johnny Black, for example).  Also, there are less expensive single malts that are better than Johnny Blue.

Exactly. Several of them, in fact....

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14 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

There's even a better JW in the Green label, which is a blended malt instead of a true blend.  It's far cheaper too.

Yep. A good friend of mine (a dentist with too much money) orders it all the time....I generally don't do Scotch when I'm at the bar because it's too pricey, but every once in a while I cave and have a Glenlivet or something similar.....

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2 hours ago, King Heffy said:

There's even a better JW in the Green label, which is a blended malt instead of a true blend.  It's far cheaper too.

 

2 hours ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Yep. A good friend of mine (a dentist with too much money) orders it all the time....I generally don't do Scotch when I'm at the bar because it's too pricey, but every once in a while I cave and have a Glenlivet or something similar.....

I love it when a heavy topic thread devolves into chatter about booze... shows our priorities in times of crisis :gocan:

 

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