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9 hours ago, Warhippy said:

 

Just to clarify, having lived in California and lived in the US for a number of years.

 

Oregon and Washington, and large parts of California have populations of rednecks and right wing lunatics that make the average hot blooded anti Trudeau Albertan look like a BLM protesting leftist by comparison.

 

I mean if we're picking and choosing I'm ok with essentially the entire coastline plus 100 km inland and that's about it.

 

Plus, the cities of Seattle/tacoma Portland and the Bay area alone are holding populations larger than the entire population of BC and in fact approaching the entirety of the nation of Canada.

 

I'd be far more amiable to reaching a fair movement agreement with the US over Alberta and allowing them to leave if they want, as long as they promise to leave their citizenship at the border

Then Cascadia goes off and it is the first country to be destroyed by Earthquake and Tsunami 

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6 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

By saying they weren't effective so that they could protect from a shortage? (Which he called the "critical issue" in explaining the change). The discouragement of them to the public when they apparently knew better (given the implied importance of, you know, not running out of them...), is the dishonesty. I don't really want to waste more time arguing about this, agree to disagree. 

 

 

I do have another question for you though actually,- and @stawns if he wants to jump in - when we're beyond this do you think China will and/or should face some kind of consequences for their negligence in warning the world at the beginning? 

Sarcastic George Costanza GIF

 

China basically has the world by the balls with all their manufacturing, no ones gonna piss them off because without China, companies would collapse and economies would down right suffer.  Why do you think the WHO keeps glossing over China, and trying to almost dust it off as often as possible (haven't followed them lately but I know a few months ago they were still trying to not outright blame china for supressing critical info at the beginning of the pandemic, etc.  more of just a small slap on the wrist).  

 

I don't believe from what I have read that it came from a lab but probably from those god awful wet markets, is anyone going to go and force China to shut those down to try and prevent this again?  I would highly doubt it.

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15 hours ago, EOTM said:

We take Washington and Oregon. Montana absorbs Alberta and Sask. Everybody wins.

Hey Saskatchewan isn't that bad. Better yet we kick everyone out of Alberta and move them to Texas, since that's what they really want to be anyways. And start again. 

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10 minutes ago, Mj2345 said:

And from the article you posted:  “The flipside of this statistic though, is that 89.7 per cent of all cases are occurring in eligible, but unvaccinated people, and 84.9 per cent of hospitalized cases are people who are unvaccinated.”

People refusing to get vaccinated are the ones causing the problem.  Stupid and selfish. 

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18 minutes ago, Tortorella's Rant said:

Double vaccinated people are being infected by the delta CDC reports, Global News reiterates. 

I'd like to see how many double vaccinated get regular garden variety covid, then end up in hospital, then end up passing

Then  compared to non vaccinated folk and then

compare to the Delta variant numbers.

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3 minutes ago, gurn said:

I'd like to see how many double vaccinated get regular garden variety covid, then end up in hospital, then end up passing

Then  compared to non vaccinated folk and then

compare to the Delta variant numbers.

Highly doubtful that information would be made public in such detail that you could view it case by case. 

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32 minutes ago, Tortorella's Rant said:

Double vaccinated people are being infected by the delta CDC reports, Global News reiterates. 

Yup, exactly why I've continued to behave the same way I have through it all.  Exactly why restrictions should be eased off, not taken off.  We'll see if we learned anything in the last year or not

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/8074394/most-covid-cases-among-vaccinated-u-s-cdc/

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11 minutes ago, stawns said:

Yup, exactly why I've continued to behave the same way I have through it all.  Exactly why restrictions should be eased off, not taken off.  We'll see if we learned anything in the last year or not

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/8074394/most-covid-cases-among-vaccinated-u-s-cdc/

If we could keep the border closed a bit longer, that would be greatly appreciated.

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3 hours ago, Tortorella's Rant said:

Double vaccinated people are being infected by the delta CDC reports, Global News reiterates. 

Which is actually fine. The point of the vaccine isn't to kill covid 19 or its variants. The vaccine is supposed to turn it into another garden variety flu. The problem imo is timing. While vaccination numbers here are good they aren't good enough that it doesn't spread like wildfire. That won't be a problem for the vaccinated but it will for the unvaccinated.

 

Car accidents happen even if you wear a seat belt but if you aren't wearing that belt...

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9 hours ago, Tortorella's Rant said:

Double vaccinated people are being infected by the delta CDC reports, Global News reiterates. 

Yep it happens over here as well. The point of the vaccine isn’t 100% immunity but it gives you a chance to fight it. 
 

cases still high over here but hospitalisations and death no longer follow the same link from infections 

 

also if you are double jabbed it doesn’t mean you cannot be a spreader either. 

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40 minutes ago, UKNuck96 said:

Yep it happens over here as well. The point of the vaccine isn’t 100% immunity but it gives you a chance to fight it. 
 

cases still high over here but hospitalisations and death no longer follow the same link from infections 

 

also if you are double jabbed it doesn’t mean you cannot be a spreader either. 

Indeed, not any more, according to the other CDC:

 

Quote

World·THE LATEST

Coronavirus: What's happening in Canada and around the world on July 30

Large outbreak in Massachusetts mostly infected vaccinated people, CDC study finds

The Associated Press · Posted: Jul 30, 2021 8:03 AM ET | Last Updated: 32 minutes ago
 
1227064265.jpg
People are seen in Provincetown, Mass., in May 2020. A study by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention about a recent COVID-19 outbreak in Provincetown found that three-quarters of the infections were in fully vaccinated individuals (Maddie Meyer/Getty Images)
 

In another dispiriting setback for U.S. efforts to stamp out the coronavirus, scientists who studied a large COVID-19 outbreak in Massachusetts concluded that vaccinated people who got so-called breakthrough infections carried about the same amount of the coronavirus as those who did not get shots.

 

Health officials on Friday released details of that research, which was key in this week's decision by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to recommend that vaccinated people return to wearing masks indoors in parts of the U.S. where the delta variant is fuelling infection surges.

 

The authors said the findings suggest that the CDC's mask guidance should be expanded to include the entire country, even outside of hot spots.

 

The findings have the potential to upend past thinking about how the disease is spread. Previously, vaccinated people who got infected were thought to have low levels of virus and to be unlikely to pass it to others. But the new data shows that is not the case with the delta variant.

 

 
1331530269.jpg
A health worker tends to a COVID-19 patient at a Los Angeles hospital on Friday. (Mario Tama/Getty Images)

The outbreak in Provincetown — a seaside tourist spot on Cape Cod, in the county with Massachusetts's highest vaccination rate — has so far seen more than 900 cases.

 

The CDC report is based on about 470 COVID-19 cases linked to the Provincetown festivities, which included densely packed indoor and outdoor holiday events at bars, restaurants, guest houses and rental homes.

 

Researchers ran tests on a portion of them and found roughly the same level of virus in those who were fully vaccinated and those who were not.

 

Three-quarters of the infections were in fully vaccinated individuals. Among those fully vaccinated, about 80 per cent experienced symptoms with the most common being cough, headache, sore throat, muscle aches and fever.

 

In the report, the measure researchers used to assess how much virus an infected person is carrying does not indicate whether they are actually transmitting the virus to other people, said Dr. Angela Rasmussen, a virologist at the University of Saskatchewan.

 

WATCH | 'If you are unvaccinated ... your luck is about to run out,' says U.S. physician: 

 
HOTEZTN.jpg?crop=1.777xh:h;*,*&downsize=
 

'If you are unvaccinated ... your luck is about to run out': physician

9 hours ago
6:55
Dr. Peter Hotez, co-director of vaccine development at Texas Children's Hospital in Houston, emphasized the risks unvaccinated people are running against the delta variant of COVID-19. 6:55

 

CDC officials say more data is coming. They are tracking breakthrough cases as part of much larger studies that involve following tens of thousands of vaccinated and unvaccinated people across the country over time.

 

Meanwhile, internal documents on breakthrough infections and the delta variant suggest the CDC may be considering other changes in advice on how the nation fights the coronavirus, such as recommending masks for everyone and requiring vaccines for doctors and other health workers.

 

The delta variant, first detected in India, causes infections that are more contagious than the common cold, flu, smallpox and the Ebola virus, and it is as infectious as chickenpox, according to the documents, which mentioned the Provincetown cases.

 

The documents, first obtained by The Washington Post, note that COVID-19 vaccines are still highly effective against the delta variant at preventing serious illness and death.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/coroanvirus-covid19-canada-world-july30-2021-1.6123663

 

The article goes on to discuss local and globlal pandemic issues and responses.

 

Of note, and to re-iterate:

Quote

The findings have the potential to upend past thinking about how the disease is spread. Previously, vaccinated people who got infected were thought to have low levels of virus and to be unlikely to pass it to others. But the new data shows that is not the case with the delta variant.

and 

Quote

Researchers ran tests on a portion of them and found roughly the same level of virus in those who were fully vaccinated and those who were not.

 

Three-quarters of the infections were in fully vaccinated individuals. Among those fully vaccinated, about 80 per cent experienced symptoms with the most common being cough, headache, sore throat, muscle aches and fever.

So in essence, the expectation was that the vaccine would keep coronavirus levels relatively low amongst the fully vaccinated vs. the higher loads that would appear in those who were partially- or un-vaccinated and infected.  The expectation was also that by keeping viral loads low amongst the fully vaccinated, the likelihood of them being spreaders would be greatly reduced.

 

However, the recent studies are showing that for whatever reason, this variant is still able to convince the body to generate massive amounts of virus even amongst the fully vaccinated (albeit with muted or diminished adverse results), and because of that, the likelihood of transmission from the fully vaccinated is no longer considered low probability.

 

A later article - and more dire - takes the CDC wording one step further:

Quote

Delta variant as contagious as chickenpox, CDC says

'Acknowledge the war has changed,' internal COVID-19 document says

Thomson Reuters · Posted: Jul 30, 2021 6:46 PM ET | Last Updated: 7 hours ago
 
new-yorkers-wearing-masks-during-the-cov
People in New York are seen wearing masks on Friday as a measure to prevent the spread of COVID-19. The U.S. Centers for Disease Control says the 'war' on COVID-19 has changed as a result of the highly transmissible delta variant. (Eduardo Munoz/Reuters)

 

The war against COVID-19 has changed because of the highly contagious delta variant, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) said, proposing a clearer message, mandatory vaccines for health workers and a return to universal masking.

 

An internal CDC document said the variant, first detected in India in October 2020 and now dominant across the globe, is as contagious as chickenpox and far more contagious than the common cold or flu.

 

It can be passed on even by vaccinated people, and may cause more serious disease than earlier coronavirus strains.

 

WATCH | 'If you are unvaccinated ... your luck is about to run out': physician

 
HOTEZTN.jpg?crop=1.777xh:h;*,*&downsize=
 

'If you are unvaccinated ... your luck is about to run out': physician

9 hours ago
6:55
Dr. Peter Hotez, co-director of vaccine development at Texas Children's Hospital in Houston, emphasized the risks unvaccinated people are running against the delta variant of COVID-19. 6:55

 

The document, entitled "Improving communications around vaccine breakthrough and vaccine effectiveness," said the variant required a new approach to help the public understand the danger — including making clear that unvaccinated people were more than 10 times more likely than those who are vaccinated to become seriously ill or die.

 

"Acknowledge the war has changed," it said. "Improve communications around individual risk among vaccinated."

 

Recommended preventative measures included making vaccines mandatory for health-care professionals to protect the vulnerable and a return to universal wearing of face masks.

 

The CDC confirmed the authenticity of the document, which was first reported by the Washington Post.

 

Vaccinated less likely to be infected

 

While vaccinated people were less likely to become infected, once they contracted such "breakthrough infections" from delta — unlike the case with earlier variants, they might now be just as likely as the unvaccinated to pass the disease on to others.

 

 
rochelle-walensky-and-anthony-fauci-appe
Dr. Rochelle Walensky, shown alongside Dr. Anthony Fauci in Washington, D.C., earlier this month, says 'breakthrough' infection cases involving the delta variant mean those individuals who get sick after being vaccinated may be able to pass on the virus to others, as is the case with unvaccinated individuals. (J. Scott Applewhite/Getty Images)

 

"High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with delta can transmit the virus," CDC head Rochelle Walensky said in a statement.

 

On Friday, the CDC released data from a study of an outbreak in Massachusetts in which it said three-quarters of those infected had been fully vaccinated. That study played a pivotal role in a CDC decision this week to again recommend that vaccinated people wear masks in some situations, Walensky said.

 

Delta driving deaths

 

The CDC has said that as of July 26, 6,587 people have experienced breakthrough COVID-19 infections after being fully vaccinated and were hospitalized or have died. It stopped reporting on mild infections this spring, but in the report, it estimated that there were about 35,000 symptomatic infections each week in the United States.

 

 
nurse-prepares-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-
A nurse is seen preparing a dose of Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine in Tel Aviv, Israel, on Friday. (Emmanuel Dunand/AFP/Getty Images)

 

In parts of the world where large numbers of people have yet to be vaccinated, the delta variant has led once again to surging death rates and hospitalizations.

 

The head of the World Health Organization, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, said health systems in many countries were now being overwhelmed: "Hard-won gains are in jeopardy or being lost," he told a news conference.

 

'A virus that has become fitter'

 

The global health body's top emergency expert Mike Ryan told reporters that vaccines were nevertheless still effective at preventing serious illness and death: "We are fighting the same virus, but a virus that has become fitter."

 

Even in rich countries that were among the first to roll out vaccination campaigns, cases have surged.

 

 
mask-wearing-pedestrians-stroll-along-a-
Local authorities in France are re-imposing mask mandates and other restrictions because of fast-growing infections with the delta variant, which is causing COVID-19 hospitalizations in the country to rise again. (Bob Edme/The Associated Press)

 

While vaccines have so far kept death rates lower, large populations remain vulnerable, especially those who refuse vaccines — a particular problem in parts of the United States where voters supported former U.S. president Donald Trump. Trump is the only living president not to have participated in public service campaigns encouraging people to take the vaccine.

 

Nearly one-third of U.S. adults have yet to get a first shot. Areas where vaccination rates are low have seen sharp rises in cases in recent weeks, and authorities fear hospitalizations and deaths are not far behind.

 

The top U.S. infectious diseases specialist, Dr Anthony Fauci, told Reuters he expected that vaccines, which so far have received only emergency approval, could begin getting full regulatory approval in August, and that this could help persuade more people to get vaccinated.

 

British panel says protection likely wanes over time

 

In Britain, where the delta variant caused a sharp surge in infections in recent months despite one of the world's fastest inoculation campaigns, a panel advising the government said protection from vaccines was likely to wane over time, meaning vaccination campaigns would probably last for years.

 

 
mask-wearing-pedestrian-walking-along-th
The delta variant has pushed up COVID-19 case counts in Britain over the past few months. (Henry Nicholls/Reuters)

 

On Tuesday, the CDC, which had advised vaccinated Americans months ago that they no longer needed to wear masks, reversed course, saying even the fully vaccinated should wear face coverings in situations where the virus was likely to spread.

 

On Thursday, U.S. President Joe Biden urged local governments to pay people to get vaccinated and set new rules requiring federal workers to provide proof of vaccination or face regular testing, mask mandates and travel restrictions.

 

"The main thing that does change [because of delta] is that masks will still be used and that in countries where this requirement has been lifted, it will have to be reintroduced," said Carlo Federico Perno, head of microbiology and immunology diagnostics at Rome's Bambino Gesù Hospital.

 

More countries implementing restrictions

 

Countries in Asia, many of which avoided the worst outcomes that hit Western nations in 2020, have been particularly hard hit in recent weeks. Several announced new restrictions on Friday.

 

 
mask-wearing-grocery-shoppers-in-sydney-
Residents shop for essential goods in Sydney on Friday amid restrictions aimed at containing the spread of COVID-19. (Saeed Khan/AFP/Getty Images)

 

Starting Monday, army personnel will help police Australia's biggest city, Sydney, checking that people who have tested positive are isolating.

 

The Philippines announced a plan to put the Manila capital region, home to more than 13 million people, in lockdown for two weeks.

 

In Japan, where a surge in cases has overshadowed the Olympic Games, the government proposed states of emergency through the end of August in three prefectures near Tokyo and the western prefecture of Osaka.

 

"Infections are broadening. The situation is extremely severe," Economy Minister Yasutoshi Nishimura said, warning infections had not yet reached a peak.

 

 
employee-walking-by-covid-19-signage-at-
An employee at a Tokyo metro station walks past a sign Friday relaying information about COVID-19 prevention. (Androniki Christodoulou/Reuters)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/delta-variant-cdc-contagious-1.6124795

 

Specifically:
 

Quote

An internal CDC document said the variant, first detected in India in October 2020 and now dominant across the globe, is as contagious as chickenpox and far more contagious than the common cold or flu.

 

It can be passed on even by vaccinated people, and may cause more serious disease than earlier coronavirus strains.

and

Quote

While vaccinated people were less likely to become infected, once they contracted such "breakthrough infections" from delta — unlike the case with earlier variants, they might now be just as likely as the unvaccinated to pass the disease on to others.

 

"High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with delta can transmit the virus," CDC head Rochelle Walensky said in a statement.

Both articles do also agree with your second point, that adverse outcomes as a result of infection from this "delta" variant amongst the fully vaccinated are greatly diminished.

 

So - for the people that consciously choose not to be vaccinated at this time, and have no medical reason not to get vaccinated, this is kind of the wake up call: "herd immunity" doesn't seem to apply to this variant, and your best chance at minimizing the adverse outcomes associated with being infected with this virus are by getting vaccinated.  If you have a medical reason why you can't - well, can't really be helped there other than to maintain social distancing and masking guidelines when interacting with the public (and why it's short-sighted to lift the mask mandate and make it a "recommendation" - where few people every truly listen to PHO "recommendations").

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