Coronavirus outbreak

[DrJockitch]

55 minutes ago, Lancaster said:

Yep, just throwing ideas out.  I'm no health expert, I don't know if the vaccine is really the right course or not, but perhaps I'm just instinctually a skeptic.  I see Japan doing it better, we as a society should be replicating their model more.  We should be expecting our government to really figure things out, rather than just rolling out restrictions and setting up nearly irreversible situation that is dividing people.  

 

I'm not a huge fan of vitamin pills, but they do play a role in those who are unable to get their full nutrients via their regular diet.  Great for kids who hates their fruits and veggies, lol.  Plus vitamins has been around for decades, there's way less hesitancy as the "long-term impact" is well established.  

Having healthy food that's affordable would really help going forward.  Like when Whole Foods is selling 1 organic apple for $1.... that is creating a barrier to many. 

 

There are way too many unknowns out there or stuff that needs further research.  I'm not expert here, but the delta strain (I'm assuming also future strains) can still be caught and spread by those vaccinated, while their symptoms are more muted, but wouldn't only the strongest viral mutations survive and thus spread again?  Kind of like how doctors say to follow the exact instructions when taking anti-biotics as the bacteria keep getting stronger each generation... is it similar with viruses?  

Then there's some early studies about how natural immunity and especially if you caught covid previously is vastly superior to vaccine immunity.  Perhaps that's why Japan is doing better?  Their infection rates were extremely high (by their standards), but death rates really low... thus maybe they have achieved better herd immunity than here?

Seems more prudence to wait for the more facts rather than using incomplete data sets and implementing rules and regulations that's undeniably intrusive.  

I will answer a couple things, though my COVID fatigue is more related to dispelling misinformation on unwilling ears so I won’t go into detail.

 

Vitamins are useful for specific deficiencies/malabsorption syndromes, but other than that a waste of money. Study after study have shown this.  I love that centrum advertises that they are the most studied multi-vitamin, they just don’t tell you that the studies show they are useless. 
 

Eating local has generally been shown to be more important than eating organic. If you can’t afford whole foods, don’t shop there. I don’t and I probably could afford it. Lots of other options for fresh fruits and vegetables. 
 

Delta strain is an escape variant in that the antibodies produced from immunizations are less effective in lab studies. That being said it is still very effective at decreasing transmission and doubly so at reducing serious illness. Perfect no but still very effective. 
 

The term natural immunity is maddening because that is what immunizations stimulate. It is the same immune system. This has been one of the big lies that people believe, catching COVID is more effective than immunization. This is bunk pure and simple. The studies show it is about half as effective and more short lived. The only positive result so far is that one study suggests COVID infection followed by immunization gives an even more robust response than two shots.  Currently there is no protocol though to say COVID and one shot is enough. 

[thedestroyerofworlds]

40 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

I will answer a couple things, though my COVID fatigue is more related to dispelling misinformation on unwilling ears so I won’t go into detail.

 

Vitamins are useful for specific deficiencies/malabsorption syndromes, but other than that a waste of money. Study after study have shown this.  I love that centrum advertises that they are the most studied multi-vitamin, they just don’t tell you that the studies show they are useless. 
 

Eating local has generally been shown to be more important than eating organic. If you can’t afford whole foods, don’t shop there. I don’t and I probably could afford it. Lots of other options for fresh fruits and vegetables. 
 

Delta strain is an escape variant in that the antibodies produced from immunizations are less effective in lab studies. That being said it is still very effective at decreasing transmission and doubly so at reducing serious illness. Perfect no but still very effective. 
 

The term natural immunity is maddening because that is what immunizations stimulate. It is the same immune system. This has been one of the big lies that people believe, catching COVID is more effective than immunization. This is bunk pure and simple. The studies show it is about half as effective and more short lived. The only positive result so far is that one study suggests COVID infection followed by immunization gives an even more robust response than two shots.  Currently there is no protocol though to say COVID and one shot is enough. 

The most maddening thing.  Ya, you can get "natural immunity" but it means you have to get infected by the virus first.  You have to fight off the infection.  You have to survive.  For a percent or two, they won't.  For upwards of 5% or more (BC's data has it just over 5%), they will require hospitalization.  If some reports are to be believed, up to a third will have persistent symptoms (long-Covid) for which we really haven't figured out what the complete long-term impacts to people's health are going to be.  

 

The people who parrot the "natural immunity" talking point don't know enough, don't care enough, or both.  To them, this is better than getting a shot, then a month later getting a second, then maybe 6 months later getting a third.  Nope, risking their long-term health or even their life at a much much much getter percentage is best.  /s

Edited October 12, 2021 by thedestroyerofworlds

[johngould21]

45 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

I will answer a couple things, though my COVID fatigue is more related to dispelling misinformation on unwilling ears so I won’t go into detail.

 

Vitamins are useful for specific deficiencies/malabsorption syndromes, but other than that a waste of money. Study after study have shown this.  I love that centrum advertises that they are the most studied multi-vitamin, they just don’t tell you that the studies show they are useless. 
 

Eating local has generally been shown to be more important than eating organic. If you can’t afford whole foods, don’t shop there. I don’t and I probably could afford it. Lots of other options for fresh fruits and vegetables. 
 

Delta strain is an escape variant in that the antibodies produced from immunizations are less effective in lab studies. That being said it is still very effective at decreasing transmission and doubly so at reducing serious illness. Perfect no but still very effective. 
 

The term natural immunity is maddening because that is what immunizations stimulate. It is the same immune system. This has been one of the big lies that people believe, catching COVID is more effective than immunization. This is bunk pure and simple. The studies show it is about half as effective and more short lived. The only positive result so far is that one study suggests COVID infection followed by immunization gives an even more robust response than two shots.  Currently there is no protocol though to say COVID and one shot is enough. 

One of the best and most informative posts I've seen in this thread. Your last paragraph is the best argument I've seen regarding people that think by getting a Covid infection, your immunity increases.

[bishopshodan]

Ok,

I take it back Island Health. DIdn't like the process and hoped to go for a test today but they just called and I'm booked for tomorrow at 10:30. 

[thedestroyerofworlds]

1 minute ago, bishopshodan said:

Ok,

I take it back Island Health. DIdn't like the process and hoped to go for a test today but they just called and I'm booked for tomorrow at 10:30. 

Last time I started feeling sick here in PG (Northern Health a month or so back), I called around 7 PM Sat.  Got a call back the next morning for a 9:45 AM Sunday test.  Had my result that evening.  All because calling in sick is such a pain and I'd rather have a result.

[brilac]

The Victoria Clipper ended their service from Seattle for the season and will start again in spring 2022.  I think it was 3 weeks of service and was surprised when I saw on the news a month ago that they were starting trips to Victoria and back.  Maybe things will be different in spring 2022. 

Edited October 13, 2021 by brilac

[LTC123]

On 10/10/2021 at 4:59 PM, Lancaster said:

Unfortunately still in YVR.  Wanted to go over, but 10-14 days hotel quarantine with 2 toddlers?  No way, lol.  

 

Lots of restriction over there, but still comparatively less than in Canada.  Feels like Canada is trying to "push the envelope" to see how much the public will tolerate and once there are pushback, label that group with derogatory terms and get the "converted" to go after said group.  Any questions get blasted with the motto "Listen to the science" which is akin to "Shut up!".  Question the people who are in the position of authority (eg. following their funding, past professional connections, etc.) and it's a "conspiracy theory".  

Headlines are filled with biased interpretation of numbers and stats to follow a narrative.  Alternative treatment that requires more funding and research are immediately dismissed as "horse medicine" or "junk science".... even though there are plenty of articles prior to 2019 of stuff like ivermectin, NAC, etc... being used to treat pneumonia, SARS, influenza, etc.... stuff that are closely associated with COVID.  But it's against dogma to mention it.  

 

There's like zealous mob mentality going on in Canada.  Not gonna say it's 1984 or whatever... but talking to my parents who went through the Cultural Revolution in China... they say it's not too far off.  One definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again.... Canada is starting to feel like that.  "Quick!  Everyone get vaxxed!  Cases are rising?!  More Vax!  Still rising?  Must be those who aren't vaxxed are to be blamed!  More vax!"  Whereas Japan is "let kinda wait and see.... everyone... try to be good" and they're doing better than here.  Why aren't Canadians pissed at the government for their current ineptitude?  Why aren't people questioning the decisions made by the government more?  Why are people accepting that current implementations are far inferior to those like in Japan?  Why is the government and those who support them are so keen on doubling down instead of just admitting that maybe they have no idea what they are doing and maybe they're making mistakes? 

In regards to other other meds, there is not actual proof that they are effective against C19:  the studies are anecdotal, flawed, or inconclusive.  IVER "might" work....but it also might not...who knows?   The Vax is proven to work.....the others have not.  

[The Arrogant Worms]

17 minutes ago, brilac said:

The Victoria Clipper ended their service from Seattle for the season and will start again in spring 2022.  I think it was 3 weeks of service and was surprised when I saw on the news a month ago that they were starting trips to Victoria and back.  Maybe things will be different in spring 2022. 

The main reason was Canadians can't use it.

[brilac]

7 minutes ago, The Arrogant Worms said:

The main reason was Canadians can't use it.

Another reason was the requirements for Americans to enter Canada. 

[JM_]

6 hours ago, Lancaster said:

I think we should figure out what fundamental differences are there that are causing such different results.  They have higher density, they travel more on public transit, a more elderly population, privately owned health care facilitates that is funded by the government, etc.  All initial indicators would have all of us believe they should have it way worse than here.

In Canada and the US, they're treating the covid shots like some holy grail to solve all issues... yet it seems that the real solution is more nuanced.  There are probably numerous different variables in play.... personal hygiene, health, diet, water quality, etc.  

I really wish the powers that be can be upfront about it.  Instead of just running with the same mantra of "We BC do gud... we guuder than 'merika N alBertazz!".  I mean if I was in Japan, I would be assuming that with the way BC is handling Covid, that the hospitals must be treating patients with leeches, voodoo or something.  100 cases out of 30 million people in Tokyo.... what should that say about how we are handling it?

When government is acting with such adamant authority that their course of action is the correct one, in face of actual proof of other working strategies, that is most frightening.  It's no longer about doing what is best, it's about maintaining power.  

 

I have no idea regarding protestors in Japan.... but usually they're not too overly intrusive when they do protest (unlike in the West).    

That being said, I do know that hesitancy is a very common issue over there.

Most people I know there aren't vaccinated or are only vaccinated if their job requires it (eg. flight attendant, multi-national consultant, etc). 

None of my wife's family are vaccinated and it's not like they're some crazy right-wing religious crackpots living at some rural commune in Hokkaido.  Just the averaged educated people working in public education or business owners in Osaka.  My in-laws are somewhat local community leaders (or at least very active in community affairs), so it's safe to say many of their peers probably hold the same point of view of they do.  Considering my in-laws are those who survived WW2 (including being at Hiroshima) and all their siblings and peers are still alive and kicking during this covid pandemic, they must either be lucky or doing something right.  

certainly lets study the differences. But in the meantime, lets act using the best knowledge and tools we have at hand. And thats not ideology.

 

[JM_]

5 hours ago, Lancaster said:

If health is the fundamental issue, why the need to push the vaccine to a population that generally wouldn't need it? 

thats a really bad premise. I'm not sure where you are getting that idea. We can't wall off the vulnerable parts of our population in north america and have it work that way. That should be obvious by now.

 

5 hours ago, Lancaster said:

 

Shouldn't the vaccine to be provided to those in a higher risks categories like the elderly and those with chronic issues then?  Why the rush to push the vaccine to those who are under-25 and to kids, the group least likely to be severely impacted by the coronavirus (according to the stats)?

because of how viruses spread. No one is "pushing" anything, can you not understand we need everyone on board to protect people? Its surprising that you have this idea that somehow we can separate our society by age in the work to stop the virus.

 

 

[Lancaster]

14 minutes ago, JM_ said:

thats a really bad premise. I'm not sure where you are getting that idea. We can't wall off the vulnerable parts of our population in north america and have it work that way. That should be obvious by now.

 

because of how viruses spread. No one is "pushing" anything, can you not understand we need everyone on board to protect people? Its surprising that you have this idea that somehow we can separate our society by age in the work to stop the virus.

 

 

Once again, I have to bring up Japan as the example of how things are done very vastly different with drastically better results.  

Maybe Canada needs to stop telling everyone to buy in and instead just copy the strategy of somewhere that is doing better?

 

Japan with 126 million people, with the elderly making up 28%,  has 1.7 million cases of infection and 18000 deaths.  Higher population density, higher uses of public transportation, less restrictive lockdown, no covid passport, no lower rate of vaccination, more elderly folks.  

Canada with 38 million people, with the elderly making up 16%, has 1.6 million cases of infection and 28000 deaths.  Lower population density, more use of private transportation, more restrictive lockdown, introduced covid passports, high rate of vaccination, less older folks. 

 

Should be clear as day that Canada has made mistakes and are continuing to make mistakes.  Instead of just following the politicians' playbook by blaming the unvaccinated folks or that people need the 3rd or 4th booster shots, maybe Canadians should start questioning the competency of the public health officials and the politicians.  

 

[86Viking]

47 minutes ago, Lancaster said:

maybe Canadians should start questioning the competency of the public health officials and the politicians.  

 

Politicians...never can you ever rely on anything they say...public health officials are just their puppets, earning a great wage and pension to be the brunt of this entire pandemic. Trudeau has done many foolish things since Covid start, yet Canadians still voted him back

[Kurgom]

1 hour ago, Lancaster said:

Once again, I have to bring up Japan as the example of how things are done very vastly different with drastically better results.  

Maybe Canada needs to stop telling everyone to buy in and instead just copy the strategy of somewhere that is doing better?

 

Japan with 126 million people, with the elderly making up 28%,  has 1.7 million cases of infection and 18000 deaths.  Higher population density, higher uses of public transportation, less restrictive lockdown, no covid passport, no lower rate of vaccination, more elderly folks.  

Canada with 38 million people, with the elderly making up 16%, has 1.6 million cases of infection and 28000 deaths.  Lower population density, more use of private transportation, more restrictive lockdown, introduced covid passports, high rate of vaccination, less older folks. 

 

Should be clear as day that Canada has made mistakes and are continuing to make mistakes.  Instead of just following the politicians' playbook by blaming the unvaccinated folks or that people need the 3rd or 4th booster shots, maybe Canadians should start questioning the competency of the public health officials and the politicians.  

 

You keep bringing up Japan, but you know everyone in Japan wears masks even walking around outside to the train from home or the office. The reason they're doing better overall has nothing to do with vaccinations, and from what I hear near every adult in Tokyo is nearing 2 shots. Flimsy premise for your argument. 

 

Wear a mask, get a vaccine. That's what Japan seems to be doing. We couldn't even get the mask part down and you are comparing the results.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Kurgom

[DrJockitch]

8 hours ago, Lancaster said:

Once again, I have to bring up Japan as the example of how things are done very vastly different with drastically better results.  

Maybe Canada needs to stop telling everyone to buy in and instead just copy the strategy of somewhere that is doing better?

 

Japan with 126 million people, with the elderly making up 28%,  has 1.7 million cases of infection and 18000 deaths.  Higher population density, higher uses of public transportation, less restrictive lockdown, no covid passport, no lower rate of vaccination, more elderly folks.  

Canada with 38 million people, with the elderly making up 16%, has 1.6 million cases of infection and 28000 deaths.  Lower population density, more use of private transportation, more restrictive lockdown, introduced covid passports, high rate of vaccination, less older folks. 

 

Should be clear as day that Canada has made mistakes and are continuing to make mistakes.  Instead of just following the politicians' playbook by blaming the unvaccinated folks or that people need the 3rd or 4th booster shots, maybe Canadians should start questioning the competency of the public health officials and the politicians.  

 

This is an apples to oranges comparison.   So many structural and cultural differences between Canada and Japan as well as climate. 
A couple more viable comparators would be Sweden and other Scandinavian countries. Sweden decided it would go for natural immunity compared to the relative restrictive measures taken by the other Scandinavian countries. They changed course because how poorly they did despite other structural advantages they had. 
Or even better compare Alberta and Saskatchewan to the rest of the provinces in the fourth wave.  Ontario’s 4th wave was a blip, Alberta’s was a tragic near collapse of the healthcare system. 
You also don’t bring up the success of Australia who have used more aggressive restrictive measures to control things very effectively, not like China but much more than North America. 
Japan is the anomaly and while there is value to figuring out what it is that works there but to just say that because of them we should just pull back measures is foolish and ignores the rest of the clear, more relevant examples of what happens and would have tragic effects. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 hour ago, DrJockitch said:

This is an apples to oranges comparison.   So many structural and cultural differences between Canada and Japan as well as climate. 
A couple more viable comparators would be Sweden and other Scandinavian countries. Sweden decided it would go for natural immunity compared to the relative restrictive measures taken by the other Scandinavian countries. They changed course because how poorly they did despite other structural advantages they had. 
Or even better compare Alberta and Saskatchewan to the rest of the provinces in the fourth wave.  Ontario’s 4th wave was a blip, Alberta’s was a tragic near collapse of the healthcare system. 
You also don’t bring up the success of Australia who have used more aggressive restrictive measures to control things very effectively, not like China but much more than North America. 
Japan is the anomaly and while there is value to figuring out what it is that works there but to just say that because of them we should just pull back measures is foolish and ignores the rest of the clear, more relevant examples of what happens and would have tragic effects. 

Goes to show you not all Conservative governments are a**holes with respect to how they handled the pandemic.  While Ford has his faults, he’s been far better than Kenny & Moe.

 

Speaking of a**holes.  BC’s likely ***hole on the month goes to:

 

https://theprovince.com/news/local-news/covid-19-rcmp-investigating-after-man-glues-doors-shut-at-langford-vaccine-clinic

[JM_]

11 hours ago, Lancaster said:

Once again, I have to bring up Japan as the example of how things are done very vastly different with drastically better results.  

Maybe Canada needs to stop telling everyone to buy in and instead just copy the strategy of somewhere that is doing better?

 

but once again, your aren't making a proper comparison. When you look just at Canadian cities like Vancouver, we're doing really well with vaccination rates and infection rates, just like Japanese cities.

 

Its only when you move out to suburban and rural areas, and of course Alberta, where Canada has the problem.

 

 

11 hours ago, Lancaster said:

 

Japan with 126 million people, with the elderly making up 28%,  has 1.7 million cases of infection and 18000 deaths.  Higher population density, higher uses of public transportation, less restrictive lockdown, no covid passport, no lower rate of vaccination, more elderly folks.  

Canada with 38 million people, with the elderly making up 16%, has 1.6 million cases of infection and 28000 deaths.  Lower population density, more use of private transportation, more restrictive lockdown, introduced covid passports, high rate of vaccination, less older folks. 

 

Should be clear as day that Canada has made mistakes and are continuing to make mistakes.  Instead of just following the politicians' playbook by blaming the unvaccinated folks or that people need the 3rd or 4th booster shots, maybe Canadians should start questioning the competency of the public health officials and the politicians.  

 

whats clear as day is suburban and rural Canadians need to stop with facebook and use the tools they've been given to help end the pandemic.

[Ghostsof1915]

14 hours ago, bishopshodan said:

Ok,

I take it back Island Health. DIdn't like the process and hoped to go for a test today but they just called and I'm booked for tomorrow at 10:30. 

Good luck.

[Ghostsof1915]

My Mom was a nurse.

My niece was a nurse but stepped away prior to Covid to take care of her daughters.

For all the medical staff, doctors, nurses, techs.

Do yourself and them a favour, get vaccinated. Mask up.

Our system already is strained.

Let's cut our medical professionals some slack for a change.

[JM_]

So lets do some actual comparisons, metro Tokyo with Coastal Health numbers, which is about as close as we can get for city to city comparisons.

 

Tokyo's current test positivity rate has been falling, and is now about 1%. It was 2.2% on Oct 1st. (https://stopcovid19.metro.tokyo.lg.jp/en/cards/positive-rate/)

 

Coastal Health's positivity rate is currently 2.5% (https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/a6f23959a8b14bfa989e3cda29297ded)

 

So basically Vancouver is where Tokyo was less than 2 weeks ago.

 

Our covid problem is suburban and rural, and with those who still refuse basic science and a safe, cost effective prevention method. Opening things back up to let these folks continue to do damage is not the answer, and comparing our suburban and rural people to Toyko e.g. is a false analogy. Our cities are doing about the same as Japanese cities are already.