[Trade] Senators trade Marian Gaborik, Anders Nilsson to Lightning for Braydon Coburn, Cedric Paquette, 2022 2nd-round pick

[ruilin96]

1 hour ago, canucklehead44 said:

During our rebuild he actually trade away/down more picks than he acquired. Now that we are trying to compete we are losing a lot of futures. Miller was a high risk move that paid off - Toffoli was a massive waste of resources and could really come back to bite us. 

While on a one-off every GM makes bad deals, the amount Benning has accumulated is insane. We wasted our cheap and productive players by filling more of our salary cap with players who are either not on the team or struggle in bottom 6 roles.  In 2018 alone we paid roughly 11 million dollars (Beagle/Roussel/Baertschi/Schaller) for 14 goals of production. That is already on top of having two terrible bottom 6 contracts in Eriksson and Sutter. To be fair the market was pretty bad BUT Benning seems to go nuts spending during expensive markets - while other teams have maybe one or two regrettable contracts, Benning stacked up 4. 

There was somewhat of a need for those players but while the team was being built it should have been picking up players who were on the downtrend but still had some game left and signing them to short term deals. Since our team was bad that player who wouldn't be a top 6 on a good team would get playing time with the Sedins, Horvat etc and raise their value for a trade at the deadline. The one time we did this was Vanek (who I wanted us to sign instead of Eriksson) and that worked out well - he played great for his contract, provided veteran leadership to Boeser, was entertaining for fans and now we have Motte. 

 

What was frustrating with all this was this management as a whole show very little creativity with the cap. They could've atleast explore options like LTIR loopholes to get under the cap. Watching everyone else found a way to do it is even more frustrating. If Stepan could be moved off with 1 year remaining, there is no way Sutter or Beagle couldn't be (granted Beagle has 2 years left).

 

I am most disappointed this off-season with how both Stecher and Toffoli signed very capfriendly deals elsewhere while this management team have very little to no creativity in getting under the cap.

 

I am more frustrated seeing that we wasted a year where we could really take a run at the cup and have to settle with mediocrity. 

[mll]

2 minutes ago, ruilin96 said:

What was frustrating with all this was this management as a whole show very little creativity with the cap. They could've atleast explore options like LTIR loopholes to get under the cap. Watching everyone else found a way to do it is even more frustrating. If Stepan could be moved off with 1 year remaining, there is no way Sutter or Beagle couldn't be (granted Beagle has 2 years left).

 

I am most disappointed this off-season with how both Stecher and Toffoli signed very capfriendly deals elsewhere while this management team have very little to no creativity in getting under the cap.

 

I am more frustrated seeing that we wasted a year where we could really take a run at the cup and have to settle with mediocrity. 

What LTIR loopholes?  Go out and injure players so that they don’t play?  LTIR doesn’t create cap space and is more a hindrance than anything else.  Why do you think Ottawa took the opportunity to get rid of their LTIR contracts now that they are well above the floor?

[ruilin96]

3 minutes ago, mll said:

What LTIR loopholes?  Go out and injure players so that they don’t play?  LTIR doesn’t create cap space and is more a hindrance than anything else.  Why do you think Ottawa took the opportunity to get rid of their LTIR contracts now that they are well above the floor?

We could've acquired those LTIR players from Ottawa in exchange for some of the bad contracts early in the off-season. Or similar moves to make things work. Or we can use what the Leafs did to Lupul, that one of our player on bad contract to "fail their physical." There are ways to get around a lot things and I see many teams exercise it. I am not in the business, but the organization is missing someone like Laurence Gillman since he left. Gillman was just so creative with the cap that he was able to make it all work out during our cup contending years back in the late 2000s and early 2010s.

[Pickly]

22 minutes ago, Me_ said:

We definitely don’t... yet...

But I hear that duo of Pettersson / Horvat is pretty good...

I hate comparisons like this. Sakic and Forsberg are arguably top 15-20 players of all time. Forsberg was one of the hardest players to play against, ever, and could take over games by himself. Petey and Bowie are fantastic players but pump the brakes. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Pickly

[mll]

2 minutes ago, ruilin96 said:

We could've acquired those LTIR players from Ottawa in exchange for some of the bad contracts early in the off-season. Or similar moves to make things work. Or we can use what the Leafs did to Lupul, that one of our player on bad contract to "fail their physical." There are ways to get around a lot things and I see many teams exercise it. I am not in the business, but the organization is missing someone like Laurence Gillman since he left. Gillman was just so creative with the cap that he was able to make it all work out during our cup contending years back in the late 2000s and early 2010s.

Ottawa are looking to compete this season and were not looking to take cap dumps.  They are not going to trade for players they have no interest in.  Benning has been trying to move contracts but found no takers.

 

Lupul had an independent doctor assess him and he failed.  Teams are at risk of losing draft picks and/or have fines counting against the cap if they try and simulate injury.

 

LTIR creates bonus overages - the 1.7M against this season’s cap is because the Canucks had to put Ferland on LTIR and couldn’t bank cap space.  It also limits who can get recalled.  Ottawa has so many prospects on ELCs that getting rid of their LTIR contracts is the smart thing to do. Tampa now has that limitation but also don’t have that many ELC players.  

[aGENT]

23 minutes ago, ruilin96 said:

We could've acquired those LTIR players from Ottawa in exchange for some of the bad contracts early in the off-season. Or similar moves to make things work. Or we can use what the Leafs did to Lupul, that one of our player on bad contract to "fail their physical." There are ways to get around a lot things and I see many teams exercise it. I am not in the business, but the organization is missing someone like Laurence Gillman since he left. Gillman was just so creative with the cap that he was able to make it all work out during our cup contending years back in the late 2000s and early 2010s.

Like Chris Gear?

 

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/sports/hockey/vancouver-canucks-promote-chris-gear-to-assistant-general-manager-395185/#:~:text=Chris Gear%2C who has worked,GM Jim Benning announced Tuesday.&text=“We're fortunate to have,Benning said in a statement.

 

Maybe, just maybe... You don't know WTF you're talking about? 

 

As @mll is also kindly trying to explain to you, LTIR is not some miracle cure all either. 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by aGENT

[UFCanuck]

Ottawa is our only competition. 

[ruilin96]

4 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Like Chris Gear?

 

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/sports/hockey/vancouver-canucks-promote-chris-gear-to-assistant-general-manager-395185/#:~:text=Chris Gear%2C who has worked,GM Jim Benning announced Tuesday.&text=“We're fortunate to have,Benning said in a statement.

 

Maybe, just maybe... You don't know WTF you're talking about? 

 

As @mll is also kindly trying to explain to you, LTIR is not some miracle cure all either. 

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, mll said:

Ottawa are looking to compete this season and were not looking to take cap dumps.  They are not going to trade for players they have no interest in.  Benning has been trying to move contracts but found no takers.

 

Lupul had an independent doctor assess him and he failed.  Teams are at risk of losing draft picks and/or have fines counting against the cap if they try and simulate injury.

 

LTIR creates bonus overages - the 1.7M against this season’s cap is because the Canucks had to put Ferland on LTIR and couldn’t bank cap space.  It also limits who can get recalled.  Ottawa has so many prospects on ELCs that getting rid of their LTIR contracts is the smart thing to do. Tampa now has that limitation but also don’t have that many ELC players.  

I have also been a big Benning supporter ever since he arrived and I have never wanted him fired (and I still don't). I am just frustrated with his lack of cap-management which led us into this situation this season. Seeing every other team able to pick up useful depth acquisition to improve their team while the Canucks lose more players than they gain is just furstrating.

 

Also, I gave Benning benefit of the doubt when he signed Beagle and Roussel contracts that he would have a way out of them when we need to get out of those contracts. Unfortunately, this just isn't the case. It is what it is. I am just frustrated that after a great year, we likely won't be able to follow it up with another one. With the new aligned division, I am not optimistic that we can make the playoffs.

[MeanSeanBean]

16 hours ago, Alain Vigneault said:

Another day in the office for Julien BriseBois.

 

Meanwhile, a plethora of dead cap like Sutter, Eriksson, Ferland, Baertschi, Roussel, Beagle, etc., are all gonna be showing up to our training camp to bum around for another season.

 

Makes you wonder...

Tbay is an elite team with with cup window currently open while we are planning for our window opening once those players naturally come off the roster. Apples and oranges.

[aGENT]

2 minutes ago, ruilin96 said:

 

I have also been a big Benning supporter ever since he arrived and I have never wanted him fired (and I still don't). I am just frustrated with his lack of cap-management which led us into this situation this season. Seeing every other team able to pick up useful depth acquisition to improve their team while the Canucks lose more players than they gain is just furstrating.

 

Also, I gave Benning benefit of the doubt when he signed Beagle and Roussel contracts that he would have a way out of them when we need to get out of those contracts. Unfortunately, this just isn't the case. It is what it is. I am just frustrated that after a great year, we likely won't be able to follow it up with another one. With the new aligned division, I am not optimistic that we can make the playoffs.

I don't think we'll be any worse personally... Our top 4 D is MILES better IMO, our goaltending is largely a wash and our F core is basically the same but one more year experienced, stronger etc for our young, key players.

 

Our bottom pair is a bit of a question mark but there's loads of potential there to be an improvement, or at least a good. And if a slight downgrade, they'll likely see more limited action like a lot of better teams do with their third pair. There's also still the possibility we add Hamonic, in which case it's also clearly an improvement over last year.

 

But who knows? That's why they play the games. Maybe we will be worse? Or maybe take a breath and go for a walk lol.

 

And we did add some nice depth pieces like Hawr BTW... Otherwise we have a LOT of prospects who need cups of coffee at this level to see where they are (many of whom don't require waivers). If we signed a bunch of old, withering on the vine vets to fill those depth holes, people would just be whining about not letting kids play. 

 

As for the cap... Sure a bit more space would be nice. But covid happened... We're in the same position there as like 25+ other teams, suddenly having to make unexpected sacrifices to squeeze under the flat cap.

 

Basically all of our 'bad' (or mediocre) cap is gone in the next 1-2 years, Luongo re-crap included. The future is bright... Relax and enjoy.

 

[J-Dizzle]

.....Marian Gaborik????? 

[Me_]

17 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

Montreal is the team to beat in the North imo

 

Montreal

Calgary

Vancouver

Edmonton

Toronto 

Ottawa 

Winnipeg

 

However this division is too tough to accurately predict any of the 7 are a playoff threat in a shortened season 

I love your love for our ex-Canucks. But I assure you that Tanev and Markstrom do not make Calgary better than Vancouver.

 

Vancouver - best team in Canada and growing

 

Montreal - best team in the east

 

Toronto - will do great out of the gate as usual and then fade away as pressures of cynicism mount... as usual

 

Edmonton - should be slightly improved but they now have a legacy of bottom feeder to surmount yearly.

 

Winnipeg - seems as if they keep slowly getting worse...

 

Calgary - the Flames are not gonna make it

 

Ottawa - perhaps the most changed team so they’re hard to predict 

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Me_

[Pears]

7 hours ago, canuktravella said:

 stasny  last had 49 points  6 yrs ago hes a 40 point player now and 35yrs old hes  not gonna do much on jets hes def not better than bryan little. Morrisey and pionk are ok but are they first pair dmen  they havent shown that yet in their careers  jets are gonna have a down yr 

Except he had 42 points in 50 games two years ago and 38 in 71 last season lol. Overall they’ve had pretty similar production throughout their careers. 

[Silky mitts]

Montreal is getting so overrated lol

[Silky mitts]

13 hours ago, Chris12345 said:

For some reason I think Mathew's is gonna rip it up too....

He will probably get the rocket this year. Petey will accumulate more points though, with only Leon and Mcdavid ahead of him

[canuktravella]

4 hours ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

You are blinded by hate for Toronto. Are they cup contenders? No, they need D. But no one from the Canadian division is a contender. Toronto is the best of the lot.

So you're just going to ignore the fact that Toronto and Edmonton both have multiple top 10 forwards in the league? Also, why would McDavid, Draisatl, Matthews and Marner follow the same growth trajectory that you have laid out for Pettersson?

Overpaid or not, Markstrom and Tanev improve Calgary. I'm hopeful Schmidt makes up for that loss.

All I'm saying is that let's not pretend our d corps is some world beater when our bottom pair is going to be made up some sort of combination of Rafferty, Benn and Juolevi. Edmonton, Toronto, and imo the Canucks have a similar weakness with defence. Toronto and Vancouver at least have decent goaltending. But both Toronto and Edmonton have higher power offences. 

No one has taken my bet yet.

1. canucks   real deal last yr only getting better 

2. oilers   dcorp getting better  shoukd work on bottom 6 tho 

3. sens young and vet mix should suprise 

4. leafs still need d 

5. flames  once tanev breaks a foot  or gets crunched into boards he be on ir  their d corp is old and slow

6. jets  no d depth 

7. habs  no center depth 

[JM_]

5 hours ago, canucklehead44 said:

During our rebuild he actually trade away/down more picks than he acquired. Now that we are trying to compete we are losing a lot of futures. Miller was a high risk move that paid off - Toffoli was a massive waste of resources and could really come back to bite us. 

While on a one-off every GM makes bad deals, the amount Benning has accumulated is insane. We wasted our cheap and productive players by filling more of our salary cap with players who are either not on the team or struggle in bottom 6 roles.  In 2018 alone we paid roughly 11 million dollars (Beagle/Roussel/Baertschi/Schaller) for 14 goals of production. That is already on top of having two terrible bottom 6 contracts in Eriksson and Sutter. To be fair the market was pretty bad BUT Benning seems to go nuts spending during expensive markets - while other teams have maybe one or two regrettable contracts, Benning stacked up 4. 

There was somewhat of a need for those players but while the team was being built it should have been picking up players who were on the downtrend but still had some game left and signing them to short term deals. Since our team was bad that player who wouldn't be a top 6 on a good team would get playing time with the Sedins, Horvat etc and raise their value for a trade at the deadline. The one time we did this was Vanek (who I wanted us to sign instead of Eriksson) and that worked out well - he played great for his contract, provided veteran leadership to Boeser, was entertaining for fans and now we have Motte. 

 

If you do the count, Benning only traded away a few more picks than he gave up, all in the name of the Linden plan to re-tool around the Sedins. It was a flawed plan but since the split Benning has done much better on his own.

 

Beagle, Roussel and Sutter are useful players. Overpaid, sure, but they also helped get the team into a nice playoff run last year which was a great experience for the younger guys. Next year we'll be fine cap-wise. 

[Petey Castiglione]

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

I don't think we'll be any worse personally... Our top 4 D is MILES better IMO, our goaltending is largely a wash and our F core is basically the same but one more year experienced, stronger etc for our young, key players.

 

Our bottom pair is a bit of a question mark but there's loads of potential there to be an improvement, or at least a good. And if a slight downgrade, they'll likely see more limited action like a lot of better teams do with their third pair. There's also still the possibility we add Hamonic, in which case it's also clearly an improvement over last year.

 

But who knows? That's why they play the games. Maybe we will be worse? Or maybe take a breath and go for a walk lol.

 

And we did add some nice depth pieces like Hawr BTW... Otherwise we have a LOT of prospects who need cups of coffee at this level to see where they are (many of whom don't require waivers). If we signed a bunch of old, withering on the vine vets to fill those depth holes, people would just be whining about not letting kids play. 

 

As for the cap... Sure a bit more space would be nice. But covid happened... We're in the same position there as like 25+ other teams, suddenly having to make unexpected sacrifices to squeeze under the flat cap.

 

Basically all of our 'bad' (or mediocre) cap is gone in the next 1-2 years, Luongo re-crap included. The future is bright... Relax and enjoy.

 

I don't understand all the doom and panic.  I'd say the teams that look to have improved in the Canadian division are the bottom dwellers where there's no real place to go but up.  Everyone has more or less remained similarly competitive except maybe for Calgary.  At this point it's anybody's guess how it'll shake out, and its fun to talk about.  The same people crying we'll be crap this year are the same people who said we'd be crap last year, and we know how that turned out.

 

I believe the kids will take another step and that will push us near the top of the division.  There's been hype for Calgary/Edmonton/Toronto for years and our group has already had more playoff success than them.  Wonder why we have all the "expensive" vets?  Exactly why Calgary/Edmonton/Toronto did so this off season.  They saw the rewards our young guns reaped off of it and are trying to do the same. 

 

Oh and Ottawa looked towards the Canucks as a rebuild model.  The same team some people have said are doing their rebuild right and we did ours wrong. lols.

Can't wait for another season of "surprise" when we put the league on notice again.  

[PistolPete13]

13 hours ago, FaninMex said:

After reading this chat, I'd like to add my two cents.

 

After the first ten games the games will begin to feel like playoff games. By the end of the 56 games, it is going to be war in every division. The west division is going to be crazy with Vegas, Blues trying to bully their way in. 

 

While many complain about Myers and his penalties in the playoffs, I saw a much different picture that will very important for us. As the Blues were trying to beat us into submission Myers stepped up. I think he was important to our winning over the Blues. His ability to take the fight to the Blues allowed our players to refocus and get back into the game. You can see it later in the series as the Blues went after him more and more.

 

As the series drags on, Sutter, Beagle, Motte and Rousell are going to win us games after the 10 game mark. You can quote me on this if you wish. Their PK and ability to take some of the tougher minutes is going to be very important as games begin to get chippy. Take Rousell in the Vegas series, we were down and yet Vegas was always drawn to him. He drew players to him constantly and threw players off their game. End of the second in game 5, 3 Vegas players went out of their way to throw a shot at him. He had gotten into their heads. That helped us to get back into the series. 

 

I think our bottom 6 is going to help us win many games

 

Another point that I wanted to bring out is about Marky and this is not a shot at him. I think he is going to step back a bit from what he was with us. When Cloutier was our goalie coach Marky was decent but not the star. Enter Ian Clark and both Marky and Demko step up their play. I do not know anything about Calgary's goalie coach, but losing Ian is going to hurt Marky. I also foresee a Holtby resurgence and will predict that we will have the best goalie tandem because of Ian Clark.

Well said.  

I will add that it is interesting how a trade between Ottawa And TB has morphed into a discussion of the Canadian division and the Canucks chances this year. 

[Me_]

Nonetheless, the competition in our Division ought to be spectacular.