Lessons Learned (Discussion)

[J.I.A.H.N]

Hi All

 

Well, with Covid and the flat Cap, there are certainly lessons to learn. The greatest lesson and the one that us fans should learn, is that moving players out is not necessarily a bad thing, even when they are fan favorites. This has been a favorite topic of mine, as many of my proposals have included fan favorites, and most times, the reluctance has been, that you don't move out talent, because you don't get back what you have moved out.

 

With me, it has always been about building and getting better (although not all my trade suggestions have been good ones), but I have always felt that CDC has a reluctance to trade players that have grown up on the team. As, understandably, they have been our hero's.

 

Well, fast forward to the 2020-2021 season, and a new reality. The Canucks forced into a position, where choices had to be made, we had to consider Markstrom vs Demko, and letting Tanev go, as the cap was pushing us that way. Other fan favorites left also, with Stecher, Leivo and Toffoli all not having their contracts renewed. It certainly looked and felt like a step back.

 

But as this was happening, some of our younger players were advancing and pushing for none existent holes, which forced Benning to take a hard look at the entire picture. I am sure, at the time, before it all came together, Benning must have had some very gut wrenching moments. Especially with that Flat Cap raising it ugly head.

 

But through luck, and circumstance, where other teams were faced with much the same problems, and in some cases, even tougher decisions, Benning was able to wheel and deal, and replace some of the players. Now, the point of this thread is not to say we are better off, but more to revisit your feelings, having learned that fan favorites were departing. Months before when the debate was either to protect Markstrom over Demko at the Expansion draft, it was a pretty divided group, where IMO, some of the argument was sentimental, and emotional, and rather than discuss what was better long term, it was we can't let Markstrom go. The same could be said for Tanev.

 

Now, once they decided to leave, and eventually sign with Calgary, well all bets were off and the love dissipated rather quickly. Then once Holtby and Schmidt were signed/traded for, the moans became even quieter.

 

So, my point to all this, that change can be good, even when fan favs are moved, and even when top end players that have been here along time, are moved. The secondary point, is that the pain subsides, and fans adapt or adjust to the changes. Now there has not been a game played, so we don't really know how the changes are going to affect the team this year, but we do know that Holtby and Schmidt are talented players with personality.

 

Change is good, or at least can be......to this day, I will still argue we should have moved the Sedin's at the end of their careers, as a TDL could have brought us embarassing riches. Now this is spilt milk now, but now we have a new group, to look at.............the next big argument, will be with Horvat's extension and whether we trade him, and then ? several years later.

 

It is funny, when looking back at some of the players that have either been traded, or have walked. It is truly amazing we have survived! LOL

 

Here is a list................Luongo, Bure, Linden, Tanev, Markstrom, Schnieder, Burrows, Snepsts, Ohlund, Hanson, and many more, and again we survived! 

 

I wonder, if these lessons have been learned? I wonder if you agree, that the team is more important than the player?

 

PS

 

And as I edit this before sending it off to you to either ignore or tear apart.......another question arises............

 

What would have Markstrom, Tanev, Toffoli, and Stecher brought at the TDL in assets, never mind the much better draft picks?

 

For the long term benefit of the club, would it not have been a good thing to consider?

 

PSS

 

Hey, enjoy ripping me apart..........I am inviting you to! 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by janisahockeynut

[ItsMillerTime]

I don't think there is any argument about Bo. Bo's contract is up after the 2022-2023. He is not going to be moved especially since he is our captain and that's right when we will be contending. The Sedin's also both had 7 million dollar contracts each so I don't think a contender would have been able to take them on. 

[buddhahoodlum]

35 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

Hi All

 

Well, with Covid and the flat Cap, there are certainly lessons to learn. The greatest lesson and the one that us fans should learn, is that moving players out is not necessarily a bad thing, even when they are fan favorites. This has been a favorite topic of mine, as many of my proposals have included fan favorites, and most times, the reluctance has been, that you don't move out talent, because you don't get back what you have moved out.

 

With me, it has always been about building and getting better (although not all my trade suggestions have been good ones), but I have always felt that CDC has a reluctance to trade players that have grown up on the team. As, understandably, they have been our hero's.

 

Well, fast forward to the 2020-2021 season, and a new reality. The Canucks forced into a position, where choices had to be made, we had to consider Markstrom vs Demko, and letting Tanev go, as the cap was pushing us that way. Other fan favorites left also, with Stecher, Leivo and Toffoli all not having their contracts renewed. It certainly looked and felt like a step back.

 

But as this was happening, some of our younger players were advancing and pushing for none existent holes, which forced Benning to take a hard look at the entire picture. I am sure, at the time, before it all came together, Benning must have had some very gut wrenching moments. Especially with that Flat Cap raising it ugly head.

 

But through luck, and circumstance, where other teams were faced with much the same problems, and in some cases, even tougher decisions, Benning was able to wheel and deal, and replace some of the players. Now, the point of this thread is not to say we are better off, but more to revisit your feelings, having learned that fan favorites were departing. Months before when the debate was either to protect Markstrom over Demko at the Expansion draft, it was a pretty divided group, where IMO, some of the argument was sentimental, and emotional, and rather than discuss what was better long term, it was we can't let Markstrom go. The same could be said for Tanev.

 

Now, once they decided to leave, and eventually sign with Calgary, well all bets were off and the love dissipated rather quickly. Then once Holtby and Schmidt were signed/traded for, the moans became even quieter.

 

So, my point to all this, that change can be good, even when fan favs are moved, and even when top end players that have been here along time, are moved. The secondary point, is that the pain subsides, and fans adapt or adjust to the changes. Now there has not been a game played, so we don't really know how the changes are going to affect the team this year, but we do know that Holtby and Schmidt are talented players with personality.

 

Change is good, or at least can be......to this day, I will still argue we should have moved the Sedin's at the end of their careers, as a TDL could have brought us embarassing riches. Now this is spilt milk now, but now we have a new group, to look at.............the next big argument, will be with Horvat's extension and whether we trade him, and then ? several years later.

 

It is funny, when looking back at some of the players that have either been traded, or have walked. It is truly amazing we have survived! LOL

 

Here is a list................Luongo, Bure, Linden, Tanev, Markstrom, Schnieder, Burrows, Snepsts, Ohlund, Hanson, and many more, and again we survived! 

 

I wonder, if these lessons have been learned? I wonder if you agree, that the team is more important than the player?

 

PS

 

And as I edit this before sending it off to you to either ignore or tear apart.......another question arises............

 

What would have Markstrom, Tanev, Toffoli, and Stecher brought at the TDL in assets, never mind the much better draft picks?

 

For the long term benefit of the club, would it not have been a good thing to consider?

 

PSS

 

Hey, enjoy ripping me apart..........I am inviting you to! 

 

 

 

 

 

Trading the bolded players at the deadline would have meant a rapid fall from playoff contention, particularly Markstrom and Tanev. I think the playoff experience was worth the risk of letting them walk for nothing in the off season.

[Rick Blight]

"It is funny, when looking back at some of the players that have either been traded, or have walked. It is truly amazing we have survived! LOL

 

Here is a list................Luongo, Bure, Linden, Tanev, Markstrom, Schnieder, Burrows, Snepsts, Ohlund, Hanson, and many more, and again we survived! 

 

I wonder, if these lessons have been learned? I wonder if you agree, that the team is more important than the player?"

 

Jan, I really don't understand your example here noting that all these players have either been traded or walked. How many players don't get traded or walk? Only players that spend their entire career with one team would not fall into this category. And you could argue that they "walk" when they retire.

 

"What would have Markstrom, Tanev, Toffoli, and Stecher brought at the TDL in assets, never mind the much better draft picks?"

 

Can you give one example of a NHL playoff bound team that has ever made deadline deals of this magnitude other than for immediate help to assist in their playoff run?

 

The Sedins made it very clear that they would not accept a trade out of Vancouver. You are beating a dead horse on that one.

 

I don't think anyone would disagree with your premise that the team comes before any player. That's exactly why some of the fan favorites have been traded throughout the club history. I think the only thing that can be argued is the timing of the trades and the values received.

 

 

[J.I.A.H.N]

3 minutes ago, Rick Blight said:

"It is funny, when looking back at some of the players that have either been traded, or have walked. It is truly amazing we have survived! LOL

 

Here is a list................Luongo, Bure, Linden, Tanev, Markstrom, Schnieder, Burrows, Snepsts, Ohlund, Hanson, and many more, and again we survived! 

 

I wonder, if these lessons have been learned? I wonder if you agree, that the team is more important than the player?"

 

Jan, I really don't understand your example here noting that all these players have either been traded or walked. How many players don't get traded or walk? Only players that spend their entire career with one team would not fall into this category. And you could argue that they "walk" when they retire.

 

"What would have Markstrom, Tanev, Toffoli, and Stecher brought at the TDL in assets, never mind the much better draft picks?"

 

Can you give one example of a NHL playoff bound team that has ever made deadline deals of this magnitude other than for immediate help to assist in their playoff run?

 

The Sedins made it very clear that they would not accept a trade out of Vancouver. You are beating a dead horse on that one.

 

I don't think anyone would disagree with your premise that the team comes before any player. That's exactly why some of the fan favorites have been traded throughout the club history. I think the only thing that can be argued is the timing of the trades and the values received.

 

 

I pretty much agree with you Rick

 

The reason I wrote the piece in the first place, was I was sitting here looking at all the changes, regardless of why, and thought that really for all the whining and crying by me and others, we are really in a better spot (or so one could argue)

 

Then I thought about all the discussion that happened over the past year and thought, it really was much the same.......and really bore no bearing on reality........

I mean no one could have forecast it.......but the end result is really much different than any of us could have imagined.......

 

Even the experts could not have imagined this........pretty funny actually....

 

I did take this stance hoping it would spark some debate.

[Nuxfanabroad]

This was an off-season of necc moves, on steroids(for almost all clubs). The COVID-crunch has pretty much ensured this will likely carry into the NEXT 1 or 2 off-seasons as well. So THANK Hockey Gawds that:

 

-TD played SOOOO amazing in that 3 gm PO-cameo

- We have so many contracts coming off the books

-  " "   "   "    " arriving ELC's of apparent size, speed and/or skill at virtually all positions

- Our young kids are of obvious charm & character, who will likely help intro new faces in their inimitably awesome, seamless fashion

- With all this in mind, I'm gonna buy some lotto tix this wk(ensuring top-end whiskey, to view our Northern-assault)

 

There's nothing here to debate...

[J.I.A.H.N]

1 hour ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

This was an off-season of necc moves, on steroids(for almost all clubs). The COVID-crunch has pretty much ensured this will likely carry into the NEXT 1 or 2 off-seasons as well. So THANK Hockey Gawds that:

 

-TD played SOOOO amazing in that 3 gm PO-cameo

- We have so many contracts coming off the books

-  " "   "   "    " arriving ELC's of apparent size, speed and/or skill at virtually all positions

- Our young kids are of obvious charm & character, who will likely help intro new faces in their inimitably awesome, seamless fashion

- With all this in mind, I'm gonna buy some lotto tix this wk(ensuring top-end whiskey, to view our Northern-assault)

 

There's nothing here to debate...

I think you are missing the point Nux

 

The point is, with all you pointed out, with all the forced changes

 

Change can be good, and change can be healthy, even when it involves fan favs, and top end players

 

My conclusion is not so much that it should happen, but rather that it should always have the bottom line as the most important point

 

and feelings do not belong in the discussion

 

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by janisahockeynut

[CaptKirk888]

Well Jan, time will tell. 

But well I am not displeased with the additions made, I would have liked to keep Tofolli.

[J.I.A.H.N]

6 hours ago, CaptKirk888 said:

Well Jan, time will tell. 

But well I am not displeased with the additions made, I would have liked to keep Tofolli.

Me too, but the truth is that Eriksson contract just killed us

But I am wondering if he would have been the one we kept?

[Nuxfanabroad]

8 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

I think you are missing the point Nux

 

The point is, with all you pointed out, with all the forced changes

 

Change can be good, and change can be healthy, even when it involves fan favs, and top end players

 

My conclusion is not so much that it should happen, but rather that it should always have the bottom line as the most important point

 

and feelings do not belong in the discussion

 

 

 

 

JIHN, Would say you're kind of preaching to the choir here. You must recall, I've often been one to start up various proposals. Granny, Baer, BS, Tan-man, Brock..Hell, I'd even suggested places to deal the twins, 4 or 5 yrs back. Took some heat for many of these, but I too had quite strongly been advocating change.

 

Interestingly when looking at this past half-decade(or so), would now say JB's patience & planning has been vindicated. From where we stand at this current juncture, now appears he might've hit just the right balance.. that quite surprises me.

 

To contrast, look at Laffs/Dubas. Seems he's perpetually signing, swapping, promoting, demoting bodies at helter-skelter pace. He's a whack-a-mole varmint, trying to endlessly dodge the max-cap hammer. What kinda loyalty/chemistry does a franchise build, goin' thru bodies like a McD's hir/firing youth?

 

COVID: But let's be honest, had there not been this crazy virus, we prob would've signed as many vets as poss(if cap were 83, 84 mill). It sped up our transition towards the younger wave. With the drafting JB(& Brackett) have given us, everything might be coming together perfectly.

 

Consistently drafting well can patch over almost any unexpected mayhem, mishap or blunder(s).

Edited January 13, 2021 by Nuxfanabroad

[Lazurus]

On 1/12/2021 at 8:04 PM, janisahockeynut said:

Hi All

 

Well, with Covid and the flat Cap, there are certainly lessons to learn. The greatest lesson and the one that us fans should learn, is that moving players out is not necessarily a bad thing, even when they are fan favorites. This has been a favorite topic of mine, as many of my proposals have included fan favorites, and most times, the reluctance has been, that you don't move out talent, because you don't get back what you have moved out.

 

With me, it has always been about building and getting better (although not all my trade suggestions have been good ones), but I have always felt that CDC has a reluctance to trade players that have grown up on the team. As, understandably, they have been our hero's.

 

Well, fast forward to the 2020-2021 season, and a new reality. The Canucks forced into a position, where choices had to be made, we had to consider Markstrom vs Demko, and letting Tanev go, as the cap was pushing us that way. Other fan favorites left also, with Stecher, Leivo and Toffoli all not having their contracts renewed. It certainly looked and felt like a step back.

A very long opening thread with lots of good stuff.

 

A lesson I hope is learned is that the GM CAN'T be buddies with the team, he should be like Bowman in Chicago or Bergvin in Montreal, sitting up high and looking for improvement and yes, the negative stuff too. 

Another lesson I hope is cap management, as the team and fans found out this year the cap can make the team, it can ruin a team.

They were FORCED into decisions.

How bad is this, Holander is playing, they hope Podkolzin can play, this isn't bad BUT it is a 180 degree about face from 6 years of Benning preaching "development". Even now he takes credit for the Swedish team's development of Holander.You know that will not happen with Pod, that has been horrible development.

 

I am hoping that another lesson might be asset management at the TDL, they will have to figure out if they are in or out of a playoff spot, it should not be hard, it is simple math, but if out, even with quarantine, expiring FA's will have value if the team also uses retention, Pearson, Sutter, Benn maybe even Holtby (with a goalie coming back). Just start loading up on draft picks of future star players. There will be teams that want depth  or are very close and need quality replacements for Covid.

As fans have now seen, those players can be replaced AND the VALUE of drafted players that can play. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Lazurus

[Lazurus]

23 hours ago, Rick Blight said:

"It is funny, when looking back at some of the players that have either been traded, or have walked. It is truly amazing we have survived! LOL

 

Here is a list................Luongo, Bure, Linden, Tanev, Markstrom, Schnieder, Burrows, Snepsts, Ohlund, Hanson, and many more, and again we survived! 

 

I wonder, if these lessons have been learned? I wonder if you agree, that the team is more important than the player?"

 

Jan, I really don't understand your example here noting that all these players have either been traded or walked. How many players don't get traded or walk? Only players that spend their entire career with one team would not fall into this category. And you could argue that they "walk" when they retire.

 

"What would have Markstrom, Tanev, Toffoli, and Stecher brought at the TDL in assets, never mind the much better draft picks?"

 

Can you give one example of a NHL playoff bound team that has ever made deadline deals of this magnitude other than for immediate help to assist in their playoff run?

 

The Sedins made it very clear that they would not accept a trade out of Vancouver. You are beating a dead horse on that one.

 

I don't think anyone would disagree with your premise that the team comes before any player. That's exactly why some of the fan favorites have been traded throughout the club history. I think the only thing that can be argued is the timing of the trades and the values received.

 

 

Nail on head. That line up is killer, given away for nothing,

The game is to win. WIN. That is usually when, in this game, one team scores more goals than the other, NOT, well they lost better, that loss was and improvement

 

Can you give one example of a NHL playoff bound team that has ever made deadline deals of this magnitude other than for immediate help to assist in their playoff run?

The TDL trades are rarely the reason a team goes on to win a cup that year, oddly the next  year is when that trade makes the biggest difference to win the cup.

 

Hughes and Pettersson are not enough.

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Lazurus

[vannuck59]

I think we are ok , one more D man and groom the kids . Hoglander fits with the second line like a glove. With Miller back and Brock's shot back the first line is set. Put Jake back on the third line to replace a winger.

[IBatch]

History will likely regard the Linden trade as the best one this clubs ever made for its expansive tree (secondary trades) for a very long time.    And it was awful at the time.   The Bure trade was awful at the time too.   Sucked losing two players in their prime.  
 

Fans get attached to their players for sure, it’s natural.   And you don’t win every trade either.    I do feel that Benning got screwed when he started - a lot of assets to work with - but very few things could be done about flipping them into creating a better team.    Hope he’s cautious about his future signings to not put himself or the next GM into a similar situation.   It’s becoming more noticeable under the cap world especially, that teams that are willing to bite the bullet can boost their turn around time significantly.   Not that it always works either though.  

[IBatch]

In regards to the trade off of renting Tanev, Stecher and Markstrom...historically goalies don’t get much in a trade ... and the market had no glaring omissions.  So not sure what he could have garnered although for sure he had value to teams like CAL and EDM (division rivals .. not usually a trade GMs consider).     Tanev maybe we could have for a second.   Stecher wasn’t likely going anywhere teams would have waited or found depth somewhere else. 
 

In other words we didn’t miss out on a massive haul. 
 

This topic is for sure valid though.   Miller and Horvat have massive trade value at the moment.    Would you trade either for PLD for example?    Seems like a fair trade.   Hard to say if it’s a lateral move or not.   Rather stick to the devil we know although I’d do it for Miller simply because his age fits better with our core.   Doubt CLB would though. 
 

BB continues to be a discussion for a good reason.   Injures haven’t made it easy on him, that said he’s considered better then half the leagues top RWs.   Is he though?   Hard to gauge, again the devil that you know.  
 

Personally feel this team is a few pieces away from becoming a regular playoff team.    And the way things are now the more cracks/reps the better.   For sure it’s encouraging given how many games the team played first time out.   A lot of veteran teams, filled with current and older stars didn’t get as far.   
 

Right now the path seems pretty clear to me.   Ride it out with the guys we have while preparing for the ED and do the best we can to make the show this season.   We really aren’t in a position to sell, but could see another buy to help push the team and make it a little better come post season if we are in the same position as last season , which could also be a play to dangle a player for the ED (or a two-for) if it’s more then a rental.

 

One thing to consider is that JB has managed two trades - which cost the team nothing but lottery tickets to add core players.   We need one more top six like Miller/Horvat/EP/BB and that’s it.  Two would be incredible.    And of course one more Schmidt/Hughes level guy.     After crunching all the numbers I think it’s easy to say we can afford one for LEs wage after the kids are paid via free agency, possibly two.   JB is doing a pretty good job in setting us up for that exact thing, and the Covid cap hit is actually going to help us.