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[Proposal] Trade Jake... sign Grabner


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It is early but it still seems a big hole on our team is having reliable penalty killing forwards.  I really don’t want us to have to resort to bringing Eriksson up for that role.  He isn’t that good at it (just the best of bad options), and he needs to not get a sniff at the ice this season to pressure him to retire.

 

Thankfully getting a 3rd line penalty killer isn’t as hard as trying to get a high skill guy.  Grabner actually became a really high end PKer after he left us and he is sitting unsigned.  He can also bring sole offence and that could complement Sutter/Beagle in a Pk pair where there is also a threat of a counter attack that the opposition has to worry about.
 

There are probably a lot of other options out there as possibilities that wouldn’t cost a lot.

 

To make space on the roster and under the cap, trading Jake seems like it needs to happen.   He has some residual value after scoring 18 goals last season, but is almost certainly going to keep dropping down the roster, and that will get worse when Podkolzin arrives.  Jake won’t become worth more in trade value after a season of playing at the bottom of the lineup or being benched in favour of rookies and fringe NHLers.  That seems like the direction things are going yet again.  He just isn’t cut out as a PKer and isn’t a fit on our top two lines so there just isn’t much of a role for him left.

 

 Nothing has led me to believe that Green will change his mind and suddenly be filled with trust playing Jake in a regular role ... and nothing that Jake has really done to force Green to change his mind.

 

Even if you think Virtanen is going to blossom into a great player, it doesn’t seem at all likely that it will be here.  Each year it has been the same dance between him and Green and it hasn’t yielded results.

 

Just purely as asset management, trading him soon is likely the best bet to get the best return.  If he follows up an 18 goal season with an 8 goal season (having spent most of the season on a 4th line), then he isn’t worth anything.

 

 

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Yes, we need forwards who can reliably kill penalties.

 

But to add to that, Green and his staff need to start sending the message that if the team continues to take penalties at the rate they have been thus far (and yes, as mentioned, it's early - but they don't have a good track record the past few seasons with taking penalties) we're going to be playing the entire season uphill.  

 

I don't have the exact stats to post up here - I looked, but couldn't find the exact ones I was looking for, but the team is playing a lot of short-handed minutes/game - a LOT (that's going back a few seasons when I was able to find the stats a few months ago)! 

 

We've been a very undisciplined team for a few seasons now and although we've been able to score regularly to off-set that it's only a matter of time until undisciplined play catches up with a team. 

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5 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

Yes, we need forwards who can reliably kill penalties.

 

But to add to that, Green and his staff need to start sending the message that if the team continues to take penalties at the rate they have been thus far (and yes, as mentioned, it's early - but they don't have a good track record the past few seasons with taking penalties) we're going to be playing the entire season uphill.  

 

I don't have the exact stats to post up here - I looked, but couldn't find the exact ones I was looking for, but the team is playing a lot of short-handed minutes/game - a LOT (that's going back a few seasons when I was able to find the stats a few months ago)! 

 

We've been a very undisciplined team for a few seasons now and although we've been able to score regularly to off-set that it's only a matter of time until undisciplined play catches up with a team. 

We have been shorthanded 10 times in 3 games so I think that is reasonable. The execution on both the PP and PK has been awful though.

0/9 on the PP

5/10 on the PK

 

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We could have Bob Gainey and Guy Carbonneau in their prime killing penalties and I doubt we would fare much better with the system we have in place. It looks like our PK has a singular focus to take away scoring chances in the slot and shots from anywhere else are not defended at all. We have one PK forward that stands in the slot and rarely. moves more than 5 feet. The other forward madly scrambles trying to cover the point from board to board but will never challenge the player with the puck.

 

We refuse to challenge players with the puck and simply try to get in passing lanes and/or block shots. Teams today are far too talented to give them all the time and space they want. I would much rather we be very aggressive in attacking the PP and force them to make the perfect play to score.

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35 minutes ago, ImConfused said:

But what if he pots 25 this year, his trade value will skyrocket ;)

... and how does any player get 25 goals when not on the PP and playing 4th line minutes?

 

Did you read my post before responding?

Edited by Provost
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Jake has never been given a chance to be a Penalty Killer, ever. Getting to play on 3 different lines every night and only playing 8-10 minutes a night is not going to give you a good picture of what he can do. Green does not like him for some reason and I am sure that will not change. But he is the team's "whipping boy" so continue on. ::D

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1 hour ago, Rick Blight said:

We have been shorthanded 10 times in 3 games so I think that is reasonable.

 

http://www.espn.com/nhl/statistics/team/_/stat/minor-penalties

 

This is what I was referring to. 

Switch the drop down menu to any recent season including last playoffs and it indicates we take a lot of penalties relative to the rest of the league - unless I'm reading it incorrectly.   This is, overall,  unfortunately an undisciplined team - there's no arguing that with these stats.  When your in the top third or half of the league every season for overall penalties taken and you lose your best penalty killer and team MVP (Markstrom), that's a bad combination imo.

 

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24 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

Jake has never been given a chance to be a Penalty Killer, ever. Getting to play on 3 different lines every night and only playing 8-10 minutes a night is not going to give you a good picture of what he can do. Green does not like him for some reason and I am sure that will not change. But he is the team's "whipping boy" so continue on. ::D

So literally you agree with most of my post and then say it is making him a whipping boy?

Jake has been bad defensively 5 on 5 so they aren’t likely to make him a PKer.

The exact parts of your post about his usage are why we need to trade him.


it also isn’t reasonable to put it all on the coaches.... they don’t tend to sit guys who can help them win.  Green and his staff have been willing to give guys a chance, and Jake has had lots of chances... 

 

Thanks for (kind of) agreeing with me but managing to also sound like a jerk about it.

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2 minutes ago, Provost said:

So literally you agree with most of my post and then say it is making him a whipping boy?

Jake has been bad defensively 5 on 5 so they aren’t likely to make him a PKer.

The exact parts of your post about his usage are why we need to trade him.


it also isn’t reasonable to put it all on the coaches.... they don’t tend to sit guys who can help them win.  Green and his staff have been willing to give guys a chance, and Jake has had lots of chances... 

 

Thanks for (kind of) agreeing with me but managing to also sound like a jerk about it.

Oh no I am not agreeing with you why would I do that? ::D

Bad defensively? Yeah OK. His + - doesn't show he is bad "defensively".

I was indicating that he has never had a chance to play on a regular line to show what he can do. He is thrown around to line after line and I am sure he is not sure most nights what his role is supposed to be. I think most would liked to have seen him develop into a good power forward but he has not been given that role except for last year when he played with Miller and Petey. He did well offensively but I think it only lasted for like 9 or 10 games. Not a very good sample size for a player being here for 6 years or more. 

I think Green's idea for him is to be like a swiss army knife and move him where he is needed. Like a pinch hitter in baseball with no intent to actually develop him into anything. No real PP time or PK duties. 

So we all sit here and complain about him when he has been utilized as a utility player when we thought he was going to be given a different role on the team. 

If Jake was given 20 or so games on "HIS" line, and given opportunity on the PP and PK? and play more then 8-10 minutes a night? Then I might be closer to agreeing with you. 

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35 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

http://www.espn.com/nhl/statistics/team/_/stat/minor-penalties

 

This is what I was referring to. 

Switch the drop down menu to any recent season including last playoffs and it indicates we take a lot of penalties relative to the rest of the league - unless I'm reading it incorrectly.   This is, overall,  unfortunately an undisciplined team - there's no arguing that with these stats.  When your in the top third or half of the league every season for overall penalties taken and you lose your best penalty killer and team MVP (Markstrom), that's a bad combination imo.

 

Yup, I agree we took way too many penalties in the playoffs. And I probably wouldn't disagree that they are somewhat of an undisciplined team.

 

I would point out though that we are 1 of only 10 teams to play 3 games so far this season and it is a pretty small sample size to condemn them for this season. I also have doubts about some of these stats on the link. For example, Nashville has 0 minors but 8 pim's. how? Florida has 1 minor and 6 pim's, how? Winnipeg has 1 minor and 8 pim;s. Carolina has 1 minor and 13 pim's. Something just doesn't seem right with these numbers.

 

Edited by Rick Blight
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Like Liam Neeson, Jake has a certain set of tools. If he can manage to wield those tools as effectively and devastatingly as one Liam Neeson, I say, let's continue to let Jake ferment, simmer, slow roast or what have you. You don't rush a masterpiece in the making. Cheers!

 

image.jpeg.c3695e60a2de3638ac3a65e6a7b31ea7.jpeg

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4 hours ago, Whalespray said:

I'm not against trading Jake.

 

I will say however that there are plenty of Mottes out there that won't cost us JV. 

Ya, the idea wasn’t to trade Jake for a 3rd line PKer.  
Jake simply has to move out to make roster and cap room to bring in a player for that spot who fits better.

I think we could get a 2nd round pick or equivalent prospect for Jake or we could even package him with some cap dump.

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1 hour ago, Alain Vigneault said:

Sure.

 

Jake is finished, at least Grabner means one of Sutter/Beagle doesn't have to play the PK.

Grabner on the 3rd line also means it doesn’t have to be sheltered so much and that could help the top two lines not have to play against the toughest competition ever shift.

 

I am not saying he is an amazing player... there is a reason he isn’t signed yet.  He would be cheap and actually plays the exact role we have a huge hole needing to fill.

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8 hours ago, Provost said:

It is early but it still seems a big hole on our team is having reliable penalty killing forwards.  I really don’t want us to have to resort to bringing Eriksson up for that role.  He isn’t that good at it (just the best of bad options), and he needs to not get a sniff at the ice this season to pressure him to retire.

 

Thankfully getting a 3rd line penalty killer isn’t as hard as trying to get a high skill guy.  Grabner actually became a really high end PKer after he left us and he is sitting unsigned.  He can also bring sole offence and that could complement Sutter/Beagle in a Pk pair where there is also a threat of a counter attack that the opposition has to worry about.
 

There are probably a lot of other options out there as possibilities that wouldn’t cost a lot.

 

To make space on the roster and under the cap, trading Jake seems like it needs to happen.   He has some residual value after scoring 18 goals last season, but is almost certainly going to keep dropping down the roster, and that will get worse when Podkolzin arrives.  Jake won’t become worth more in trade value after a season of playing at the bottom of the lineup or being benched in favour of rookies and fringe NHLers.  That seems like the direction things are going yet again.  He just isn’t cut out as a PKer and isn’t a fit on our top two lines so there just isn’t much of a role for him left.

 

 Nothing has led me to believe that Green will change his mind and suddenly be filled with trust playing Jake in a regular role ... and nothing that Jake has really done to force Green to change his mind.

 

Even if you think Virtanen is going to blossom into a great player, it doesn’t seem at all likely that it will be here.  Each year it has been the same dance between him and Green and it hasn’t yielded results.

 

Just purely as asset management, trading him soon is likely the best bet to get the best return.  If he follows up an 18 goal season with an 8 goal season (having spent most of the season on a 4th line), then he isn’t worth anything.

 

 

I am surprised Jake Virtanen doesn't ask for a trade... I am surprised he has any confidence only playing 9 mins again least of all the forwards..

I like Virtanen but he should get a new start..I still say he will be a  19--25 goals -- 48 points with the right team..

This team has a better defence with Schmidt and Hamonic... 

I am a positive guy but what I seen tonight has me wondering??

The first period was great...The 2nd period and 3rd period omg there was no excitement in the game..Only game 4 but they don't play with energy like last year and scoring...Its early but every game is big in your own division...

Montreal I love there new big defence, they added some decent players, look at there toughness now...

Vancouver missing that toughness, watch Montreal against us for next 3 games..

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16 hours ago, Fanuck said:

 

We've been a very undisciplined team for a few seasons now and although we've been able to score regularly to off-set that it's only a matter of time until undisciplined play catches up with a team

Like last night?   

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