Jim Benning, An Excellent Evaluator of Talent, BUT NO GM!

[The Lock]

On 1/24/2021 at 2:29 AM, hockeygod77 said:

not easy being a gm i still think mike gillis was the guy...he made good trades i think and yes he made errors too on some but overall think he knew his stuff...i love the guys on the canucks but they are still missing a few ingredients....

I don't see really how Gillis was any better than Benning. You could literally say any GM has made good trades along with some errors.

 

The question really comes down to how good were the trades. I think Gillis was good before the stanley cup finals, but he almost changed completely after that to being sub par. It was like we needed Gillis in that moment before the finals, but he wasn't the right person after that point in time. Benning obviously has mistakes such as Eriksson, but I'd argue that Gillis' handling of the goalie situation wasn't the greatest. Sure, that whole thing looks better now with Horvat and Markstrom, but Markstrom took years to reach his prime (and one could credit Benning's patience with him) and Horvat was ranked lower than 9th (luckily he worked out in the end).

[IBatch]

6 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

 

 

 

Cool.   Did he draft the Sedins, trade Bertuzzi for Luongo, draft Schneider, draft Hansen, Bieksa  Edler, Kesler etc etc?  Nope... he did not re-sign Mitchell, did allow the goalie thing to fester and made a complete mess of a team that could have went on and had few more swipes at a cup.   He's the only GM in history that walked into a cat bird situation, i forgive this and was 2 for four , Hamhuis Erhoff, Ballard and Booth trying to push us over the top.   Was average.   There's a reason nobody has given him another job.   Also not all Pratt winners are created equal - same with Cyclone awards...didn't Mitchell have three in a row? 

Edited January 27, 2021 by IBatch

[the grinder]

2 hours ago, iinatcc said:

I will only comment on the Vanek and Vrbata point and will add more later. 

 

Getting Motte was good yes but what was Motte in the Blue Jackets organization before he got traded. He wasn't even a regular in their lineup. 

 

It's great the Motte panned but another team could have gotten more for Vanek. Maybe Motte + a 3rd or 4th round pick at least. To those calling me crazy just look what The Rangers got for Nash (who was struggling that year and had less pts than Vanek). 

 

As for Vrbata. He could have been traded and if not it's on Benning. Tatar had similar numbers and was also a minus player when he got traded go Vegas. So I cant see the league not wanting Vrbata for a rental. 

 

lol what do expect to get back for a rental ?   motte and a 3rd?  no team is going to do that  ,  Rick Nash got traded for Spooner (done), Matt Belesky( not in the league),ryan lindgren (who)a 1st and 7th rounder   so basically Nash got the rangers a late 1st round pick . 

Vrbata  had  27 points in the last season, doesn't play defensive hockey, not really want you want for a playoff run ,and then to give up assets , I'm sure 16 GM,s were  on the phone for Radim offering GMJB 2 nd and 3rds for Radim

[kanucks25]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Cool.   Did he draft the Sedins, trade Bertuzzi for Luongo, draft Schneider, draft Hansen, Bieksa  Edler, Kesler etc etc?  Nope... he did not re-sign Mitchell, did allow the goalie thing to fester and made a complete mess of a team that could have went on and had few more swipes at a cup.   He's the only GM in history that walked into a cat bird situation, i forgive this and was 2 for four , Hamhuis Erhoff, Ballard and Booth trying to push us over the top.   Was average.

Okay? Nowhere did I say he was perfect. Only thing I was highlighting was that the notion that Gillis left Benning with nothing is a complete and utter joke.

 

Did he leave Benning with as much as he inherited? No, of course not. But how could you expect that? Gillis was always in "win now" mode the entire time he was here.  

 

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

There's a reason nobody has given him another job.

Did he even try? The prevailing thought was he wasn't even thrilled about being the GM here let alone try again elsewhere.

[Whalespray]

Mike Gillis application for GM of the penguins.

 

https://imgur.com/a/Rxx2Hmf

[spur1]

I love my BBQ.  I love the smell of what JB is cooking. 

[ilduce39]

2 hours ago, Whalespray said:

Mike Gillis application for GM of the penguins.

 

https://imgur.com/a/Rxx2Hmf

I was good with Gillis as GM and supported him until the goalie controversy circus.  That’s when I shifted to thinking maybe it was okay with a change.  Not strongly advocating for it.  I’ve always been a homer.
 

The only thing I really don’t like about him now is how the guys whose only interest in the team is to argue about why JB should be fired hold him up like some messiah. 
 

Again, I think he was good but he also dithered in making moves and it seemed like no one around the league liked him - both GMs and league management.  I feel he also got the benefit of the doubt since he inherited a strong team - the narrative was always looking to explain why we were so strong - and he got a lot of print and air time about sleep doctors and stuff.  I think that “outside the box” image appeals to the “smartest guy in the room” types - even though it’s just as nebulous to quantify as the things they crap on like leadership or playing physical. 
 

Anyways just *my* normal gripes I guess.   I’d like to see him get back into the league just as hot topic discussion point.

[iinatcc]

2 hours ago, ilduce39 said:

I was good with Gillis as GM and supported him until the goalie controversy circus.  That’s when I shifted to thinking maybe it was okay with a change.  Not strongly advocating for it.  I’ve always been a homer.

I think with Gillis he was doing just fine until the 2011 Cup Run then his decisions started to become a lot more questionable. Like signing Marco Sturm then trading him away after a few games that included Samuelsson (who was still a good offensive talent at the time) for David Booth, and then trading Hodgson for Kassian. 

 

The latter was strange since he traded away a skilled Center at the time for a player that was in and out of the line up. I get there were problems between management and Hodgson but most GM's would have been patient making this trade. 

[iinatcc]

7 hours ago, the grinder said:

lol what do expect to get back for a rental ?   motte and a 3rd?  no team is going to do that  ,  Rick Nash got traded for Spooner (done), Matt Belesky( not in the league),ryan lindgren (who)a 1st and 7th rounder   so basically Nash got the rangers a late 1st round pick . 

Assets are still assets and still Rangers flipped Spooner for Ryan Strome which worked out for them. So it was Strom and 1st. 

Vanek is a 40 pt player before the trade deadline it's hard to imagine Benning not getting a better offer if he was a better negotiator in the trade table. And let's not kid ourselves the first time we heard Vanek for Motte many of us here were saying "that's it?" 

 

7 hours ago, the grinder said:

Vrbata  had  27 points in the last season, doesn't play defensive hockey, not really want you want for a playoff run ,and then to give up assets , I'm sure 16 GM,s were  on the phone for Radim offering GMJB 2 nd and 3rds for Radim

I mean anything would have been fine. I think some hockey analysts at the time in TSN were critisizing Vancouver for not trading Vrbata. Even if the offer wasn't good the mentality is "something is better than nothing". I forgot who said it it might have been Ray Ferraro but I can't remember.

[the grinder]

13 hours ago, iinatcc said:

Assets are still assets and still Rangers flipped Spooner for Ryan Strome which worked out for them. So it was Strom and 1st. 

Vanek is a 40 pt player before the trade deadline it's hard to imagine Benning not getting a better offer if he was a better negotiator in the trade table. And let's not kid ourselves the first time we heard Vanek for Motte many of us here were saying "that's it?" 

 

I mean anything would have been fine. I think some hockey analysts at the time in TSN were critisizing Vancouver for not trading Vrbata. Even if the offer wasn't good the mentality is "something is better than nothing". I forgot who said it it might have been Ray Ferraro but I can't remember.

lol  like how you add to the trade tree  to try and make your agruement valid ,   you seem to put Vanek up on a pedestal  worthy of the next coming of mcdavid  , like come on we got a young prospect  that still plays and is effective  in the league , for aging vet .   those types were hoping for a fire sell and get first round picks for burrows hansen vanek vrbata ,just like the ones  that want  Sutter, Rousell   virtanen  traded and expect a 1 st rounder back lol

 

so on one hand  you say jim should be a better negotiator  and then you say he should of got  anything he could for vrbata  ,  so wouldn't that contradict the part of negotiating , just giving in???  dont want jim to play a lil hard ball when negotiating  with agents  and other gms?   he should rollover and just take what ever lol

[Provost]

Since I don't have to worry about this season and playoffs... I spent some time doing up as exhaustive a comparison between Benning's drafting record and the rest of the draft rankings at the time, adding to the bit I did earlier in this thread.
1.  I only did 1st round, because Benning hasn't really had much significant come out of later rounds and it would take days to figure out... and later rounds are more likely to be scouts than GM anyways.
2.  I just took all the final draft ranking lists, and picked the best available player off their lists who would have been remaining at our draft position.
3.  I only did up to 2018 because we can't really evaluate the most recent picks as so few guys are in the NHL.  

Benning comes out above average... but certainly not genius level.  Petterson was his big win over the pack who mostly wouldn't have selected him.  We missed with Virtanen and Juolevi compared with the pack.  Surprisingly, we would have a stronger draft if we had have hired Craig Button to lead it. You lose out on Petterson and have Glass... but you also have Ehlers, Kempe, and Tkachuk who would more than make up the difference in my mind.  Most lists had Boeser or Konecny in 2015 and they are pretty comparable. Pronman comes out pretty well too having been the only one who identified Pastrnak...

 

Benning’s Draft                                 ISS Rankings                             Craig Button
2014 Virtanen, McCann                    2014 - Nylander, McCann          2014 - Ehlers, Kempe
2015 Boeser                                     2015 - Konecny                          2015 - Boeser
2016 Juolevi                                     2016 - Tkachuk                           2016 - Tkachuk
2017 Petterson                                 2017 - Vilardi                              2017 - Glass
2018 Hughes                                    2018 - Wahlstrom                       2018 - Hughes


Bob McKenzie                                  Pronman
2014 – Ritchie, McCann                   2014 - Nylander, Pastrnak
2015 – Konecny                                2015 - Konecny
2016 – Tkachuk                                2016 - Keller
2017 -  Vilardi                                    2017 - Vilardi
2018 -  Bouchard                              2018 - Hughes

Ryan Kennedy (The Hockey News)
2014 – Nylander, McCann
2015 – Boeser
2016 -  Tkachuk
2017 -  Vilardi
2018 - Boqvist

Hockey Prospect Magazine
2014 – Ritchie, Barbashev
2015 – Merkley
2016 – Chychrun
2017 – Petterson
2018 -  Dobson

The Hockey Writers Consensus
2014 – Virtanen, Ho-Sang
2015 -  Konecny
2016 – Chychrun
2017 -  Vilardi
2018 -  Bouchard

McKeen’s Hockey
2014 – Ehlers, McCann
2015 – Konecny
2016 - Tkachuk
2017 – Vilardi
2018 - Wahlstrom
 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Provost

[Gurn]

5 of nine, including JB went with McCaan? Woah.

 

45 minutes ago, Provost said:

because Benning hasn't really had much significant come out of later round

I get that doing all the rounds would be a tonne of work; however, imo, J.B. has had significant players from later rounds

 Demko, Tryamkin, and Forsling have all played in the league from the 2014 draft

Brisebois and Gaudette from 2015

Madden, from 2018  was used to get Tofffoli

 

 

Someday some one will do as you have done, but for all the drafts, would be interesting to see if the Canucks would be better off getting rid of all the scouts and spending that money on player development. Just take the guy  the most lists say to take.

 

[Provost]

1 minute ago, gurn said:

5 of nine, including JB went with McCaan? Woah.

 

I get that doing all the rounds would be a tonne of work; however, imo, J.B. has had significant players from later rounds

 Demko, Tryamkin, and Forsling have all played in the league from the 2014 draft

Brisebois and Gaudette from 2015

Madden, from 2018  was used to get Tofffoli

 

 

Someday some one will do as you have done, but for all the drafts, would be interesting to see if the Canucks would be better off getting rid of all the scouts and spending that money on player development. Just take the guy  the most lists say to take.

 

Demko is the first significant piece at all in my opinion... at least he is projected to be a regular starter.  Gaudette is probably the runner up and his value right now isn't a lot higher than his draft position... maybe a 3rd round pick if we traded him?  He is playing 8-12 minutes on the nights he isn't in the press box, and we are one of the worst teams in the league.

The other guys have played a few games, but nothing beyond the bottom end of the roster.  I can't imagine that in 7 drafts, most GMs haven't found at least a few players like that who play a few games in the NHL.  Feel free to do the work and find out though...

There was an analysis done here... and you can expect on average for about 1/3rd of 2nd round picks to play at least 99 games in the league (high 2nd rounders like Demko more likely than lower 2nd rounders); almost as much for the 3rd round as well really...between 25-30%.  Some of the story hasn't been told on our picks since they can still get to that threshold... but nothing indicates we are beating the pack at all by getting a few games here and there from lower picks.  "Played in the league" doesn't equate to significant player for my definition.

https://dobberprospects.com/2020/05/16/nhl-draft-pick-probabilities/

I don't think I am going to give credit to Madden since he hasn't played an NHL game and we got just a handful of games from a rental for that asset... if we started adding trades (which is a whole different argument than drafting ability), then I think Benning comes out a lot worse.

[CanadianRugby]

On 1/27/2021 at 7:48 PM, spur1 said:

I love my BBQ.  I love the smell of what JB is cooking. 

He's cooking another bottom 3 finish.  Who couldn't do that as a GM. 

[spur1]

4 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

He's cooking another bottom 3 finish.  Who couldn't do that as a GM. 

It is like forging steel. Some heat is required 

[RU SERIOUS]

On 1/23/2021 at 6:28 PM, Seeker1 said:

JIM BENNING HAS HAD AMPLE TIME TO demonstrate that he is a good GM.Unfortunately, all he has shown that he is an above average, perhaps, a very good HEAD SCOUT. His decision making, and his asset management  has been very, very POOR.(giving away Draft choices and receiving little or nothing in return) It is long past due for the Canucks to replace this MANAGEMENT TEAM, and replace it with a younger more savvy, competent GM, not just a Head Scout, with management aspirations.

 

 For all of Benning's "good drafting," the Vancouver Canucks have made little progress to become a top five team, and in fact, are still a stagnant, mediocre team, despite having talents like Hughes, and Petterson.

 

Ownership, you need to find, and put into place, a talented, new management team, NOT PREVIOUSLY FIRED RE-TREADS.

 

The Canucks have been  in the NHL for over 50 years, and have yet to WIN ONE STANLEY CUP.The Fan Base is tired, and angry, over the continued MEDIOCRITY OF THE VANCOUVER CANUCKS. Will it take another 25 years, or 50 more years for this Canuck team to bungle, and fumble their way to more future INCOMPETENCE?

 

The Vancouver Canucks seemingly have a good scouting staff, but GM, and Assistant GM, who have had a good run as executives with the Canucks, are the KEYSTONE COPS, OF THE NHL.

 

I submit, GM, AND ASSISTANT GM NEED TO BE REMOVED AS SOON AS THE 2021 SEASON IS OVER!

**********************************************************************************************************************************************

********************************************************  POST OF THE YEAR  **********************************************************

**********************************************************************************************************************************************

[RU SERIOUS]

On 1/23/2021 at 9:22 PM, spur1 said:

Look at the whole forest. Not just the tree you just ran into. 
Canucks will be fine. 

I'd like to consider your perspective, but this is turning into an OLD GROWTH FOREST !  We've been losing for a Half century and counting............

 

I'll be dead by the time they win.

[kanucks25]

11 hours ago, spur1 said:

It is like forging steel. Some heat is required 

His seat may be hot enough right now to forge steel.

[Ballisticsports.]

On 1/24/2021 at 6:47 AM, canucklehead44 said:

The GM’s primary job is roster management and has little to do with scouting. The first round is usually where they have the influence especially with a top 10 pick.

 

I will give him credit on listening to his scouts on EP as he was off the board. Hughes was the BPA and would have been stupid to pass. Juolevi over Tkachuk (I thought we would trade down a few spots and pick one of Sergachev/Chychrun/Juolevi/McAvoy since they were all pretty similar and could maybe get an extra 2nd). Virtanen over Ehlers.

 

His trades have been a bit all over the place. Some good ones, but did not acquire enough picks during our rebuild.

 

For signings he gets an F. Terrible deals at the time that look even worse than we could have imagined. He really handcuffed the team. 
 

Overall I give Benning a C and the A+ goes to Judd Brackett.

I agree the drafting is the scouts show as all the top Gm's have stated because they do all the work travelling and seeing these guys and then they all get together and decide by committee. JB is the spokesman after hearing what they say 

Coaches and Gm's do the Pro level players evaluation of proven NHL players to assess for making trades ( which says a lot, concerning that has been our weakest management decisions)

 

Anyways, I just responded, because i found it ironic you said that with Benning as your avatar

[Guest]

On 1/23/2021 at 7:45 PM, NUCKER67 said:

Excellent evaluator of talent?

 

Two words:  Virtanen Juolevi 

Juolevi gets a pass because of injuries and he’s looking good.