Popular Post Got the Babych Posted January 24, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 24, 2021 IMHO, this is what you get when you try the retool route rather committing to a full rebuild. The fun thing is, the last 6 years have been just as painful as if we did go full rebuild. So, are there any examples of a team that successfully pulled off a "retool on the fly" similar to ours? To clarify, this is how I define a rebuild versus whatever we have been doing: Rebuild: -trade valuable players on the verge of decline for picks/ NHL calibre prospects -save money/ cap space. Pick up bargains as they come, take advantage of other teams' cap issues -develop prospects in the minors -play with what you got. Fill holes with cheap, quality "character guys" -suck for a few years -draft high, draft well -hire cheap unproven coaching staff for the interim -hopefully start to compete after 3-4 years and be set up to stay competitive for another 5-7 years Lots of examples of successful rebuilds (and some unsuccessful ones), but the most recent would be the 'Lanche. Current roster is by all accounts a powerhouse on the verge of long term greatness, while still having a prospect pool that could probably compete with our NHL roster. Our "retool": -keep valuable but aging players until they go to another team during free agency -sign middling to bad free agents every year above market value and to term -play the hell out of the best players until injuries occur -blame injuries for team failure (see above) -make it rain/ spend to the cap -shove any prospect with NHL potential onto the roster as soon as they arrive -trade away picks and prospects -trade for rental players while hoping to attain a wildcard playoff berth -strive to be a playoff bubble/ wildcard team each year (unfortunately, even with the points above, we did not compete and were one of the worst teams for 4-5 years) -suck for a few years (didn't appear to be the plan, but happened anyway) -pick high/ draft OK. Nailed a few picks, but as bottom feeders consistently picking top 10 it'd be hard not to -hire cheap unproven coaching staff as long term plan We have a handful of great players and some bright spots, but through trading away picks the prospect pool is now back to depleted (OK, there's still Podz) and I don't see a way to get to the next level. By not committing to a rebuild we now seem to be built for a window of mediocrity, probably followed by a real rebuild. Happy Sunday! 1 5 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImConfused Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 3 minutes ago, Got the Babych said: and I don't see a way to get to the next level. Our young players improving as they get older and more experienced, and through trades/FA signings when our Eriksson/Sutter/Etc contracts come of the books in the near future. Happy Sunday to you as well. When the Canucks go 3-0 against Ottawa, maybe we can revisit the whole doom and gloom scenario around here, eh? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got the Babych Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, ImConfused said: Our young players improving as they get older and more experienced, and through trades/FA signings when our Eriksson/Sutter/Etc contracts come of the books in the near future. Happy Sunday to you as well. When the Canucks go 3-0 against Ottawa, maybe we can revisit the whole doom and gloom scenario around here, eh? I hope that's enough! I don't think we are as bad as we are playing right now, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if we turned it around and made the playoffs (it seems more unlikely every game though). Just can't see us being cup ready any time soon. Edited January 24, 2021 by Got the Babych 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nux4lyfe Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 On paper, I honestly think that we have a great team. It could be our system or coaching but the players change so much that there's no time to make any chemistry..It'll work out once they gel or someone come's in that knows how to utilize this awesome talent and that is one thing you cannot deny. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patel Bure Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 41 minutes ago, Got the Babych said: IMHO, this is what you get when you try the retool route rather committing to a full rebuild. The fun thing is, the last 6 years have been just as painful as if we did go full rebuild. So, are there any examples of a team that successfully pulled off a "retool on the fly" similar to ours? To clarify, this is how I define a rebuild versus whatever we have been doing: Rebuild: -trade valuable players on the verge of decline for picks/ NHL calibre prospects -save money/ cap space. Pick up bargains as they come, take advantage of other teams' cap issues -develop prospects in the minors -play with what you got. Fill holes with cheap, quality "character guys" -suck for a few years -draft high, draft well -hire cheap unproven coaching staff for the interim -hopefully start to compete after 3-4 years and be set up to stay competitive for another 5-7 years Lots of examples of successful rebuilds (and some unsuccessful ones), but the most recent would be the 'Lanche. Current roster is by all accounts a powerhouse on the verge of long term greatness, while still having a prospect pool that could probably compete with our NHL roster. Our "retool": -keep valuable but aging players until they go to another team during free agency -sign middling to bad free agents every year above market value and to term -play the hell out of the best players until injuries occur -blame injuries for team failure (see above) -make it rain/ spend to the cap -shove any prospect with NHL potential onto the roster as soon as they arrive -trade away picks and prospects -trade for rental players while hoping to attain a wildcard playoff berth -strive to be a playoff bubble/ wildcard team each year (unfortunately, even with the points above, we did not compete and were one of the worst teams for 4-5 years) -suck for a few years (didn't appear to be the plan, but happened anyway) -pick high/ draft OK. Nailed a few picks, but as bottom feeders consistently picking top 10 it'd be hard not to -hire cheap unproven coaching staff as long term plan We have a handful of great players and some bright spots, but through trading away picks the prospect pool is now back to depleted (OK, there's still Podz) and I don't see a way to get to the next level. By not committing to a rebuild we now seem to be built for a window of mediocrity, probably followed by a real rebuild. Happy Sunday! Please provide an example of a team that successfully rebuilt, and how long it took said team to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 35 minutes ago, ImConfused said: When the Canucks go 3-0 against Ottawa, maybe we can revisit the whole doom and gloom scenario around here, eh? lol @ standards 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 3 minutes ago, DarkIndianRises said: Please provide an example of a team that successfully rebuilt, and how long it took said team to do it. The Kings in the late 00's is a good example of a rebuild through the draft leading to the ultimate success. I'm not going type it all out here but you can go to the NHLtradetracker website and take a look at their transactions during that rebuild period and how it set them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, nux4lyfe said: On paper, I honestly think that we have a great team. It could be our system or coaching but the players change so much that there's no time to make any chemistry..It'll work out once they gel or someone come's in that knows how to utilize this awesome talent and that is one thing you cannot deny. We definitely have some great talent; the top-6 is nice and Hughes should be a gem (not how he's started this year, but going forward). That said, it's not enough. IMO Green should be fired but he's not a magician. The defense still needs a lot of work and goaltending is a big question mark again. With the way our cap is tied up, it'll take at least a couple more years for us ice a powerhouse, and that's if all the moves between then and now are good ones. Edited January 24, 2021 by kanucks25 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) Team's old vets, or boat anchors, have zero value. Unless you are willing to part with 1st round picks no one is interested. Gone at the end of this year: Edler Benn Sutter Pearson Hamonic Baertschi Spooner buyout End of Next Season: Luongo Holtby Motte Beagle Roussel Eriksson Regardless of what happens. A lot of the contracts that are hamstringing this franchise will be gone. And that's just the UFA's. There's RFA's as well. Options to keep Elder maybe on a two year cap friendly deal? Not even sure Pearson should stay. Edited January 24, 2021 by Ghostsof1915 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got the Babych Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 19 minutes ago, DarkIndianRises said: Please provide an example of a team that successfully rebuilt, and how long it took said team to do it. ? I included an example right there in the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 2 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said: Team's old vets, or boat anchors, have zero value. Unless you are willing to part with 1st round picks no one is interested. Gone at the end of this year: Edler Benn Sutter Pearson Hamonic Baertschi Spooner buyout End of Next Season: Luongo Holtby Motte Beagle Roussel Eriksson Regardless of what happens. A lot of the contracts that are hamstringing this franchise will be gone. And that's just the UFA's. There's RFA's as well. The problem is, some of these players need to be replaced and some of our young guys need big raises. It's entirely possible we walk away from Edler after this season, which frees up 6M, but then we're out a 2nd pairing LD. Whoever replaces Edler will probably cost about the same. Same goes for Pearson, as he'll leave a hole in a 2nd line. As for the rest of the money, it'll all be going to the new contracts for Hughes and EP. The year after is when we'll have some room. We'll have to hang tight til then lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got the Babych Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 32 minutes ago, nux4lyfe said: On paper, I honestly think that we have a great team. It could be our system or coaching but the players change so much that there's no time to make any chemistry..It'll work out once they gel or someone come's in that knows how to utilize this awesome talent and that is one thing you cannot deny. On paper we're definitely a helluva lot better than the hot mess we are seeing right now. But, we're not great even if we start playing. We have some great players, but there are a lot of holes to be filled and they won't be filled from within. So, that is a lot of free agents (when/if we have cap space), and we've seen how free agents have worked out so far... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got the Babych Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 17 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said: Team's old vets, or boat anchors, have zero value. Unless you are willing to part with 1st round picks no one is interested. Gone at the end of this year: Edler Benn Sutter Pearson Hamonic Baertschi Spooner buyout End of Next Season: Luongo Holtby Motte Beagle Roussel Eriksson Regardless of what happens. A lot of the contracts that are hamstringing this franchise will be gone. And that's just the UFA's. There's RFA's as well. Options to keep Elder maybe on a two year cap friendly deal? Not even sure Pearson should stay. Sure, not much trade value now. My whole point (or one of them) is that, even while we were at the bottom of the league, we didn't trade anyone when they did have value. Like a rebuilding team would do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patel Bure Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 30 minutes ago, kanucks25 said: The Kings in the late 00's is a good example of a rebuild through the draft leading to the ultimate success. I'm not going type it all out here but you can go to the NHLtradetracker website and take a look at their transactions during that rebuild period and how it set them up. Are they really? Lets take a look: https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00006664.html A few names that jump off the page are Kopitar in 05, Doughty in 08, Toffoli in 10’, along with a few others, but...... 1) A 7 year time span existed between when the Kings drafted their franchise player (05’) and when they won a cup. 2) Based on the draft picks you see from the link above, combined with the winning rosters from 2012 and 2014, it’s obvious that the kings assembled their cup winning rosters through a combination of trades, UFA signings, and drafting. 3) The picks that LA drafted that were a part of their cup winning rosters came through all parts of the draft other than just mainly the first round. -The Kings’ rebuilt wasn’t done overnight. Atleast 7 years separated the drafting of Kopitar and their first cup win, and the Kings were struggling well before they drafted Kopitar. -This myth or idea that a team (like the Kings) could tank and “blow it up,” and accumulate high 1st round picks/superstars in a short time span and become cup contenders 3-4 years is just that.......a myth. Rebuilding involves a LOT more than blowing it up, tanking, and accumulating high 1st round picks in successive years. If that’s all it took to successfully complete a rebuild, then teams like Edmonton, Buffalo, Florida, and New Jersey would have already experienced significant amounts of success......but they haven’t. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, DarkIndianRises said: Are they really? Lets take a look: https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00006664.html A few names that jump off the page are Kopitar in 05, Doughty in 08, Toffoli in 10’, along with a few others, but...... 1) A 7 year time span existed between when the Kings drafted their franchise player (05’) and when they won a cup. 2) Based on the draft picks you see from the link above, combined with the winning rosters from 2012 and 2014, it’s obvious that the kings assembled their cup winning rosters through a combination of trades, UFA signings, and drafting. 3) The picks that LA drafted that were a part of their cup winning rosters came through all parts of the draft other than just mainly the first round. -The Kings’ rebuilt wasn’t done overnight. Atleast 7 years separated the drafting of Kopitar and their first cup win, and the Kings were struggling well before they drafted Kopitar. -This myth or idea that a team (like the Kings) could tank and “blow it up,” and accumulate high 1st round picks/superstars in a short time span and become cup contenders 3-4 years is just that.......a myth. Rebuilding involves a LOT more than blowing it up, tanking, and accumulating high 1st round picks in successive years. If that’s all it took to successfully complete a rebuild, then teams like Edmonton, Buffalo, Florida, and New Jersey would have already experienced significant amounts of success......but they haven’t. We may be talking about two different things. I'm not saying the only thing you need to do is tank for 4 years, draft 1st or 2nd overall, and you automatically win a cup. What I'm saying is, it's a good idea to make a deliberate effort to prioritize draft picks and cap space during a down period (AKA rebuild) so that when you've accumulated enough talent, you have the assets (both money and players) to pull the trigger on "win now" moves. Benning didn't do this. Instead, he traded away a lot of draft picks and threw a lot of money at free agents during a period that we weren't anywhere close to winning. That's why we are where we are now. I'm not saying it's not salvageable, it's just going to take more time than any of us would have hoped and some shrewd moves that I don't know if Benning can make. Right now we have to wait a couple years for some bad contracts/older players to get off the books... isn't that what we were doing when Benning first took over the team like 7 years ago? Edited January 25, 2021 by kanucks25 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patel Bure Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 29 minutes ago, Got the Babych said: ? I included an example right there in the post. Yes you cited the Avalanche but take a look at how LONG it took for them to become an elite team. Take a look at their record and performance after the 2005-2006 season and how many ups and downs they experienced in attempting to rebuild. My guess is that you typed “Nathan Mackinnon draft year” into google and saw “2013,” and then deduced that the Avs had only been rebuilding since that time. I agree with you that the Avs and Joe Sakic have done a terrific job in turning that franchise around, but.... 1) it took a LOT longer than you’re giving credit. 2) The Avs became good through a combination of good drafting, talent development, signings, and trades. 3) The Avs didn’t simply blow it up and tank, hope, and pray by accumulating high end firsts for years on end. https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005307.html Landescog was drafted in 2011 by the way. The point being that the success that we are seeing with the Avs today was NOT overnight. An another good example would be Tampa Bay. Look at their journey from 2004 to 2020 if you truly want to know what a realistic and successful rebuild from zero to hero looks like. Dallas Stars are yet another example. How long did they struggle and claw for after the 2007-2008 season? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got the Babych Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 10 minutes ago, DarkIndianRises said: Yes you cited the Avalanche but take a look at how LONG it took for them to become an elite team. Take a look at their record and performance after the 2005-2006 season and how many ups and downs they experienced in attempting to rebuild. My guess is that you typed “Nathan Mackinnon draft year” into google and saw “2013,” and then deduced that the Avs had only been rebuilding since that time. I agree with you that the Avs and Joe Sakic have done a terrific job in turning that franchise around, but.... 1) it took a LOT longer than you’re giving credit. 2) The Avs became good through a combination of good drafting, talent development, signings, and trades. 3) The Avs didn’t simply blow it up and tank, hope, and pray by accumulating high end firsts for years on end. https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005307.html Landescog was drafted in 2011 by the way. The point being that the success that we are seeing with the Avs today was NOT overnight. An another good example would be Tampa Bay. Look at their journey from 2004 to 2020 if you truly want to know what a realistic and successful rebuild from zero to hero looks like. Dallas Stars are yet another example. How long did they struggle and claw for after the 2007-2008 season? Don't think I made any of the points you are trying to counter here, but yes I know the "Lanche were up and down for a long time, but that doesn't mean they were in a rebuild the whole time. If overall sucking was the criteria, I guess you could say our current retool started in 1970. There can be some discussion around what is and what isn't a rebuild, sure. But I, and seemingly most, would consider that Colorado actively started a rebuild when they bottomed out in the 16-17 season. Or perhaps when J-Sack took over as GM in 2014. That's when the team began the rebuild process as I defined it in the OP. Does that mean no players or moves previous to this were a factor? Of course not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianRugby Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Benning been aiming for the middle since he signed Vrbata & Miller instead of rebuilding while vets had trade value. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got the Babych Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 26 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said: Benning been aiming for the middle since he signed Vrbata & Miller instead of rebuilding while vets had trade value. Sadly this really seems to be true. I'm sure he had dreams of more, but the moves made speak for themselves. Seems like the 6 year plan was to win a coveted wildcard spot. Mission accomplished-time to relax! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImConfused Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 40 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said: Benning been aiming for the middle since he signed Vrbata & Miller instead of rebuilding while vets had trade value. But Vrbata was a machine and Miller was pretty okay too lol Well worth it IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now