Should transgender athletes be able to compete against the gender they identify with?

[Rubik]

13 minutes ago, Twilight Sparkle said:

sports is for everyone.

yeah, that's sth that just sounds so wonderfully powerful and uplifting for a second, then you think about it for 2 mins and you realize it's such an empty argument. Just listen: "We should let 10-year-olds play for the Stanley Cup. sports is for everyone."

 

 

[Twilight Sparkle]

15 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

Except for biological women, evidently, who have any chance of competing taken away from them. Sports is now for men and trans women.

here's an excerpt from a trans athlete:

 

If you think I have an unfair competitive advantage, consider this: I lose most of my races. I won five out of 22 events in 2019; none of those I won were against strong international fields. The woman who took second place to me in the masters world championship sprint event, Dawn Orwick, beat me just days earlier in the 500-meter time trial. In the 12 times I’ve raced against Jennifer Wagner, who finished third to my first place in the sprint event in 2018, she beat me in seven. Wagner has beaten me more times than I’ve beaten her, head-to-head. How can I have an unfair advantage over her if she beats me most of the time? And why should my right to compete be contingent on not winning?

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/05/opinion/i-won-a-world-championship-some-people-arent-happy.html

 

if you STILL feel that strongly against it and discredit and invalidate trans women because of how they were born biologically, that is transphobic

Edited February 4, 2021 by Twilight Sparkle

[Maniwaki Canuck]

1 hour ago, GoCanucks16 said:

The thread has been up for like 30 minutes and we already have people saying trans people aren't the gender they identify as. I could easily revisit older threads for "evidence" but don't really care to. I don't get a dopamine hit from "winning" arguments.

This is called begging the question, and its a logical as well as a political fallacy.  What is in dispute here is what counts as being a man or woman.  Trans ideology makes it a matter of subjective identification whereas the received and still majority opinion is that it is an involuntary biological fact.  You can go ahead and tell those people they're wrong, but that's not an argument, just an assertion.  There is nothing authoritative about the trans confusion of sex and gender except its codification in law.  Disagreeing with that intellectually doesn't make a person "trans-phobic" either.  But apparently it seems that way since the demand is to determine other people's perceptions, an outrageously coercive and ultimately impossible premise.  If I was a female athlete, I'd be pretty unhappy about this.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

6 minutes ago, Rubik said:

yeah, that's sth that just sounds so wonderfully powerful and uplifting for a second, then you think about it for 2 mins and you realize it's such an empty argument. Just listen: "We should let 10-year-olds play for the Stanley Cup. sports is for everyone."

 

 

More like:

 

 

[Twilight Sparkle]

6 minutes ago, Rubik said:

yeah, that's sth that just sounds so wonderfully powerful and uplifting for a second, then you think about it for 2 mins and you realize it's such an empty argument. Just listen: "We should let 10-year-olds play for the Stanley Cup. sports is for everyone."

 

 

hey. listen. the Park County Pee-Wee Hockey Team had a chance, they just didn't show up to play. they didn't get the puck deep, they weren't physical and stan marsh was in over his head as a coach

[Rubik]

12 minutes ago, Twilight Sparkle said:

hey. listen. the Park County Pee-Wee Hockey Team had a chance, they just didn't show up to play. they didn't get the puck deep, they weren't physical and stan marsh was in over his head as a coach

if i remember correctly little Louie was also injured for game7

Edited February 4, 2021 by Rubik

[CBH1926]

I checked in and as soon as I saw a post that opinions on this site are for the most part right wing.
 

Edited February 4, 2021 by CBH1926

[Patel Bure]

22 minutes ago, Twilight Sparkle said:

here's an excerpt from a trans athlete:

 

If you think I have an unfair competitive advantage, consider this: I lose most of my races. I won five out of 22 events in 2019; none of those I won were against strong international fields. The woman who took second place to me in the masters world championship sprint event, Dawn Orwick, beat me just days earlier in the 500-meter time trial. In the 12 times I’ve raced against Jennifer Wagner, who finished third to my first place in the sprint event in 2018, she beat me in seven. Wagner has beaten me more times than I’ve beaten her, head-to-head. How can I have an unfair advantage over her if she beats me most of the time? And why should my right to compete be contingent on not winning?

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/05/opinion/i-won-a-world-championship-some-people-arent-happy.html

 

if you STILL feel that strongly against it and discredit and invalidate trans women because of how they were born biologically, that is transphobic

I'll admit that I'm a bit ignorant in this area but it just seems to me like there's too much potential for fraudulence and loopholes.    

 

I'll give you an example - I was an NCAA Division I tennis player back in the early 00's and would be considered a decent player at the collegiate level.   However - I wasn't good enough to play 'satellite' tournaments where I would have been able to earn money.   Had I decided at the time that I now "identified" as being a woman, I would have likely been able to qualify for WTA tournaments and make a decent yet modest living by smacking around some "real" women outside of the top 100.    

 

Even in the NHL right now - let us pretend that Kole Lind isn't successful in making the Canucks or the NHL.   What's stopping him from "identifying as a woman," and becoming the next female legend a la Haley Wickenhesier?     What about someone like Brendan Gaunce?  

 

What about trained MMA/UFC fighters for instance?    Can you imagine someone like Francis Ngannou "identifying as a woman" after a few tough losses to Stipe Miocic, heading to the women's division, and then knocking out Amanda Nunes into the Gulf of Mexico?   

 

I'm not saying this to be a "smart ass" or "comical" (apology if it's coming across that way), but Biden's 'Executive Order' in this instance may open up a lot of can of worms.    

Edited February 4, 2021 by DarkIndianRises

[GoCanucks16]

7 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

This is called begging the question, and its a logical as well as a political fallacy.  What is in dispute here is what counts as being a man or woman.  Trans ideology makes it a matter of subjective identification whereas the received and still majority opinion is that it is an involuntary biological fact.  You can go ahead and tell those people they're wrong, but that's not an argument, just an assertion.  There is nothing authoritative about the trans confusion of sex and gender except its codification in law.  Disagreeing with that intellectually doesn't make a person "trans-phobic" either.  But apparently it seems that way since the demand is to determine other people's perceptions, an outrageously coercive and ultimately impossible premise.  If I was a female athlete, I'd be pretty unhappy about this.

oh no the fallacy police

 

people who reject transgender identities are transphobic

 

intellectually believing indigenous people are inferior to other races is still racist

[CanucksCountry]

2 hours ago, GoCanucks16 said:

The thread has been up for like 30 minutes and we already have people saying trans people aren't the gender they identify as. I could easily revisit older threads for "evidence" but don't really care to. I don't get a dopamine hit from "winning" arguments.

science doesn't give a &^@# about your feelings sweetheart, this transphobic argument is dumb so what some people believe in science 

[GoCanucks16]

4 minutes ago, CanucksCountry said:

science doesn't give a &^@# about your feelings sweetheart, this transphobic argument is dumb so what some people believe in science 

are you a scientist?

[Intoewsables]

7 minutes ago, CanucksCountry said:

science doesn't give a &^@# about your feelings sweetheart, this transphobic argument is dumb so what some people believe in science 

Source?

[kingofsurrey]

Competition no longer exists.

Now everyone just gets a participation ribbon.  There are no winner or losers..  Don't keep score.  

 

[Rubik]

55 minutes ago, Twilight Sparkle said:

if you don't believe a trans woman is a woman, or a trans male is a male, yes, are you transphobic. not recognizing or outright dismissing someone's pronouns, you are transphobic. if you say ignorant things like "make a separate league" you guessed it, you are transphobic

 

if you're a cis person who thinks any of these things, do better. educate yourself on trans issues and how trans people and non-binary people (such as myself) have fought a lifetime of dysphoria and bullying and people being ****heads by refusing to use correct pronouns to invalidate trans and non-binary people because they think it's funny or "not right."

also, if you feel comfortable enough, maybe you could educate us by sharing some of your experiences as a non-binary person. I guess lots of people know, love or respect you here, so i would imagine it would be more "real" for them to read about these topics coming from you, rather than from some random stranger's story off the internet. And it would certainly be more fruitful than just calling people transhobic left and right.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Rubik

[GoCanucks16]

3 minutes ago, Intoewsables said:

Source?

idk but i have one that says otherwise

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18056697/

 

One working hypothesis behind transsexuality is that the normal sex differentiation of certain hypothalamic networks is altered. We tested this hypothesis by investigating the pattern of cerebral activation in 12 nonhomosexual male-to-female transsexuals (MFTRs) when smelling 4,16-androstadien-3-one (AND) and estra-1,3,5(10),16-tetraen-3-ol (EST). These steroids are reported to activate the hypothalamic networks in a sex-differentiated way. Like in female controls the hypothalamus in MFTRs activated with AND, whereas smelling of EST engaged the amygdala and piriform cortex. Male controls, on the other hand, activated the hypothalamus with EST. However, when restricting the volume of interest to the hypothalamus activation was detected in MFTR also with EST, and explorative conjunctional analysis revealed that MFTR shared a hypothalamic cluster with women when smelling AND, and with men when smelling EST.

Because the EST effect was limited, MFTR differed significantly only from male controls, and only for EST-AIR and EST-AND. These data suggest a pattern of activation away from the biological sex, occupying an intermediate position with predominantly female-like features. Because our MFTRs were nonhomosexual, the results are unlikely to be an effect of sexual practice. Instead, the data implicate that transsexuality may be associated with sex-atypical physiological responses in specific hypothalamic circuits, possibly as a consequence of a variant neuronal differentiation.

 

ooo and this

 

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/

 

“The male and female brain have structural differences,” he says. Men and women tend to have different volumes in certain areas of the brain.

“When we look at the transgender brain, we see that the brain resembles the gender that the person identifies as,” Dr. Altinay says. For example, a person who is born with a penis but ends up identifying as a female often actually has some of the structural characteristics of a “female” brain.

[canuktravella]

2 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

I suspect the amount of time it takes before this thread gets locked is equal to the amount of time that Stealth is away from the computer.

 hopefully its closed then we dont have  to listen to your opinions.

[Twilight Sparkle]

6 minutes ago, DarkIndianRises said:

I'll admit that I'm a bit ignorant in this area but it just seems to me like there's too much potential for fraudulence and loopholes.    

 

I'll give you an example - I was an NCAA Division I tennis player back in the early 00's and would be considered a decent player at the collegiate level.   However - I wasn't good enough to play 'satellite' tournaments where I would have been able to earn money.   Had I decided at the time that I now "identified" as being a woman, I would have likely been able to qualify for WTA tournaments and make a decent yet modest living by smacking around some "real" women outside of the top 100.    

 

Even in the NHL right now - let us pretend that Kole Lind isn't successful in making the Canucks or the NHL.   What's stopping him "identifying as a woman," and becoming the next female legend a la Haley Wickenhesier?     

 

What about trained MMA/UFC fighters for instance?    Can you imagine someone like Francis Ngannou "identifying as a woman" after a few tough losses to Stipe Miocic, heading to the women's division, and then knocking out Amanda Nunes into the Gulf of Mexico?   

 

I'm not saying this to be a "smart ass" or "comical" (apology if it's coming across that way), but Biden's 'Executive Order' in this instance may open up a lot of can of worms.    

As far as i know, there've been no cases of gender fraud in any major sporting league or company. There are tests and regulations, such as hormone levels

 

You don't just wake up one day and think, you know what, I not fit for playing against men. I'm gonna be a woman. That... just doesn't happen. That's not how it works

 

Most Trans people spent YEARS of their lives battling who they are because of how they were raised or how they were influenced by the media. This is something cis people fail to understand; how a trans person grew up, or what gender dysphoria means or what it feels like

[canuktravella]

2 hours ago, DarthMelvin said:

Male to Female - No.

Female to Male - Yes.

 

Men who identify as a women will have more advantage over a women in their sport.

 

https://www.bjjee.com/articles/transgender-mma-fighter-who-broke-female-opponents-skull-are-we-getting-too-politically-correct-with-reality/

 

The level of competition is no there. If anything they should have a transgendered league.

 

Female to Male the women who Identify as male would have a harder time going against a natural male. While I have watched a few vids on females besting a male. That  is a completely different outcome for man. 

 

 

joe rogans podcast about trans mma is dead on if your born xx chromosome you fight xx if you born xy you fight xy its unfair to xx theyd get destroyed by a xy. Most other sports are unfair as testorone causes a unfair advantage over a xx. They could have a trans  division tho no problem trans vs trans. No one thinks a xx fighter having skull broken by xy in mma thinks thats fair.

[Whaleroad Train]

I've had this discussion before in the forums, but here goes nothing.  Is a man that says he is a woman and immediately competes against them at an advantage - yes he is.  Is a Transgender person, born in a mans body, goes through hormone replacement treatment for approximately two years and then competes at an advantage - pretty well no.  By the time the hormones have reduced muscle mass to female levels there are no appreciable advantages.  If there is any minor advantages it is not in strength, but things like slightly bigger hand sizes.  Makes you better at catching a ball I suppose.

 

Should a man that says he is a woman be given instant access to a woman's change room?  No.  Should a Transwoman who has gone through about 3 - 6 months hormone treatment be allowed access - definitely.  By this time she will have breasts, her genitalia will be useless, her testes will be sterile and her libido will have been reduced to nearly nothing. She would be way less of a risk to any woman in the change room, than the advances of a normal lesbian who still has her natural libido.

 

The real problem that this debate throws up is that we still have the majority of our community who cannot accept that the human race is not a binary system.  Man/Woman is a religious idea that was first created in the old testament. Genetics show us that the human race is way more diverse than that.  The Intersex community displays that trying to  shoehorn people into gender boxes is stupid. The AIS girls even more so.

 

The good news is that sporting associations around the world have put an awful lot of thought into this issue.  Hormone levels and time spent transitioning have been set as a benchmark to ensure a level playing field as much as possible.  I trust the associations to get this one right.  Lets face it - transgender people have been in existence for more than 40 years and they don't own all the female sporting records, do they?

[Squamfan]

so if a guys a male  who is wrestler in his 20's then becomes a transgender he should wrestle women? what could possibly go  wrong?