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The logic behind letting Tanev, Markstrom, and Toffoli walk

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3 minutes ago, 24K PureCool said:

Well then he should play better cause he is a big part of the problem to begin with. 

I agree that he is a big part of the problem (in spite of the points). But his hard ass balls to the wall style of play requires total motivation.

His defensive play is horrible and that is where the moping shows up.

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I don't think there is a reality where Markstrom is kept on that deal ... right or wrong, I don't think we would offer that term.

 

Toffoli was a no-brainer to keep and is a massive error, while one (or both) of Tanev/Stecher should also have been retained.

 

Also Holtby has not been good for a while, and assuming he would miraculously re-discover his game never had much legs.

 

At the end of the day, whoever you want to blame, a correctly run organization does not have this much useless salary both on and off the ice in terms of player personnel.

Edited by TheCustodian
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This may not be our year, but Benning is positioning us for an extended window as contenders. I can see us with a different coaching staff going into next season, but we should keep Benning. 

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41 minutes ago, Nathancanuck said:

I'm fine with 3x7 but hope we could make it 4x7 or 4x6.5. As you said both are hard to judge as they are special players (especially Hughes with his great offense but very poor defense). As far as I know Hughes is exempt from an offer sheet which should help us in the negotiation.

I see them both signing a bridge deal of 3-4 years as a longer contract doesn't make sense for either party as there are too many unknowns with the cap, covid and also their development.

You would be correct.

The only difference between the two is Pettersson can be offer sheeted while Hughes cannot. Since Pettersson signed his contract at the age of 19 and has played three seasons in the NHL, he is eligible to receive an offer sheet from other teams in the league. Hughes has less than three years of experience, which means he is a 10.2 (c) player and can only negotiate with the Canucks.

 

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What I see is a wasted opportunity. We are basically burning up the final year of Pettersson and Hughes’ ELC contracts by pissing it away this year. This should’ve been the time to further surround this team with depth to push them over the top.

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13 minutes ago, DSVII said:

Again. I agree we had to let them walk for cap purposes. The frustration is the timing of this. Where was this concern years ago? i remember people being laughed at for suggesting cap space should be considered when signing Gagner, Eriksson, roussell, beagle, myers

Pretty much this.

 

Benning has put a lot of great young pieces together, there is no doubt.

 

But not having foresight and not understanding opportunity cost has been the Achilles heel of this management team. 

 

Way too many transactions made thinking "this makes us better right now" without considering the dominos/consequences.

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3 minutes ago, 250Integra said:

What I see is a wasted opportunity. We are basically burning up the final year of Pettersson and Hughes’ ELC contracts by pissing it away this year. This should’ve been the time to further surround this team with depth to push them over the top.

Lol you are more delusional than anyone if you expect this team to be a contender with or without all of JB's blunders. 

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1 hour ago, DarkIndianRises said:

The logic behind letting Tanev, Markstrom, and Toffoli walk:

 

By choosing to move forward with guys like Holtby, Schmidt, and Virtanen over Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli, Benning is thinking long term and not short term.  Yes, we only saved 1.8 million in overall cap but those terms that Markstrom and Tanev got would have hurt us long term.   

 
As far as Toffoli goes, the Canucks were reportedly trying to move one of Boeser and Virtanen to clear space so that they could accommodate Toffoli’s salary but received low ball offers.  Had Benning accepted those low ball offers for either of Boeser or Virtanen, he would have been ridiculed around the league.  In fielding offers for Virtanen, the Canucks were looking to recoup the low first that was lost in the Miller deal, while looking to recoup both the first and good prospect lost in the Miller and Toffoli deals as it related to Boeser  (NOTE - Canucks were looking to move ONE of Boeser or Virtanen in the summer, not both).
 
At the start of the 2022/2023 season, we will have the following:
 
1) All of our bad “rebuild/transitional” contracts will be off the books.
2) Horvat, Schmidt, and Miller will still be on cap friendly deals while Boeser will still be a cost controlled asset as an RFA.
3) Guys like Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, Hoglander, Podkolzin, etc., will be closer to their peak.
 
The next two seasons could be our version of the 2007-2008 season (I.e a regression after having made an unexpected 2nd round appearance a year prior, which is then followed by a window of elite hood), but our cap structure fully indicates that we will likely enter a window of elitehood starting in 2022-2023.
 
My suggestion for my fellow Canucks fans is as follows:
 
1) The future is still bright.   2022/2023 is when our real "window" will start.    This season and maybe even next season is our 2007/2008.    
2) Be patient and enjoy the ride.   
 
 
 
 
 
 

If only Benning was as patient as you are.

Is so we wouldn't have signed Myers, Schmidt and Holtby.

Kept the cheap options like Leivo, Stecher, Fantemberg so Toffoli could be signed. 

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24 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

Wait And See by Tim Finn

Patience is a virtue,

Possess it if you can,

You gotta wait and see,

Seldom in a woman,

Never in a man,

You gotta wait and see.

 

On that note, let's talk about the Colorado Avalanche.  I see a lot of similarities between the Avs and Nucks.

Officially started their rebuild when the picked up Duchene in the '09 draft.  '10 was a bust.  '11 brought Landeskog.  '12 a 2nd round bust.

'13 Mckinnon.    '14 another bust.   '15 Rantanen.   '16 Jost.    '17 Makar.   '18  another bust.   19  Bowen

 

As you can see, the Avs have very lucky in the draft considering the lotto draft and/or strong draft years. In fact, they had 5 top 3 picks over 10 years!  They also busted on 3 picks of the 10 yrs.:o  But Stevie Y....

 

Now look at their SC playoff record

In the 10 years of their rebuild, these are their playoff results.  (6) did not qualify,  (2) lost in 1st round and (2) lost in 2nd round (those were the last 2 playoff seasons).

 

***Finally, this year the Avs look like they are ready to be contenders.***

 

That's a lot of bad and disappointing hockey for at least 8 years.

 

Wait and see Canuck fans.  Like the Avs, we just might have to go back to the draft this year and maybe like the Avs, win the lotto.

 

I will preface this by saying I wish this were true, and that we are the Colorado Avalanche. But at the moment, we are closer to the Oilers and Devils who made playoffs once and have been out of the picture for a while. One word : Value

 

Here's the Av's Roster and Cap hits

https://www.capfriendly.com/depth-charts/avalanche

 

Here's ours

https://www.capfriendly.com/depth-charts/canucks

 

If you waived a random Avs, how confident are you they will pass through waivers? Probably not Saad, but anyone is tempting.  If you waived a random player on our lineup, or any of GMJB's signings, how confident are you someone will pick them up. let's not even look at the top six, which team would more likely have a bottom six player picked up on waivers if they let them go tmr?

 

I agree, we can become the Avs, but as long as this management group, the ones that have handed out the albatross contracts for the last seven years, is still in place. I'm not as confident as you are. We are closer to the Oilers of 16/17 and Devils of 17/18.

 

The Aves also did something we didn't. Admit it was a rebuild and trade away stars like Duchesne for high picks.

 

 

Edited by DSVII
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Completely agree, it's an unpopular move but props to JB because it's a hard decision.

 

If we signed Marky, we lose or have to trade Demko. Demko has far more potential (although looks brutal right now).

 

If we sign Tanev, we don't get a more durable Schmidt and that combined 10M in even 3 years is going to hurt.

 

If we signed Toffoli we'd have to clear 4M and that would have to be two forwards or a forward and Benn which I don't think was possible in this flat cap. Eriksson is stuck, Roussel + Virtanen/Benn is possible but clearly not on.

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8 minutes ago, Rick Blight said:

You would be correct.

The only difference between the two is Pettersson can be offer sheeted while Hughes cannot. Since Pettersson signed his contract at the age of 19 and has played three seasons in the NHL, he is eligible to receive an offer sheet from other teams in the league. Hughes has less than three years of experience, which means he is a 10.2 (c) player and can only negotiate with the Canucks.

 

Thanks. Yeah but they are also with the same agency now, I doubt one guy signs and the other one takes an offer sheet. Also who would offer Pettersson 6-8 years 8+ million? I don't know the rules (you probably do) but it would cost like 3-4 first round picks as compensation for such an offer sheet.. And he's no McDavid and we're in a flat cap.. I have a good feeling about their contracts.

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1 hour ago, BoKnows said:

Markstroms contract will be ass in a couple years.  

Markstrom is 31 Years old he will be 37 by the time his contract is up. Let's say maybe a year or two before his contract ends he will start to decline.

 

But let's look at some goalies when they reach 36 - 37

 

Marc Andre Fleury - Had good stats last year and is off to a good start

Ryan Miller - Still a serviceable NHL goalie at 40 and still had good stats when he was 3 to 4 years ago.

Craig Anderson - I believe he was 35 when he took the Sens to the conference finals.

Henrik Lundqvist - Great playoff stats at 35 

Roberto Luongo - Still had great stats at 36 and 37 and even became an All-Star

Pekka Rinne - Still took the Preds to the playoffs when he was around 35

Martin Brodeur - Cup finals at 40

Dwayne Roloson - Conference Finals at 42 and Cup Finals 6 years prior

 

and some more players from the previous era

Patrick Roy - Won the cup at 36 and took the Avs to game 7 of the Conference finals a year after

Chris Osgood - Won the cup at 36

Ed Belfour - Won the cup at 34 made it to the final again the year after and still had good numbers after that

Dominik Hasek - Won the cup at 37 or 38

 

So Markstrom being a Canuck goalie for 6 years isn't as bad as people think it is.

 

 

Edited by iinatcc
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2 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

Markstrom is 31 Years old he will be 37 by the time his contract is up. Let's say maybe a year or two before his contract ends he will start to decline.

 

But let's look at some goalies when they reach 36 - 37

 

Marc Andre Fleury - Had good stats last year and is off to a good start

Ryan Miller - Still a serviceable NHL goalie at 40 and still had good stats when he was 3 to 4 years ago.

Craig Anderson - I believe he was 35 when he took the Sens to the conference finals.

Henrik Lundqvist - Great playoff stats at 35 

Roberto Luongo - Still had great stats at 36 and 37 and even became an All-Star

Pekka Rinne - Still took the Preds to the playoffs when he was around 35

 

and some more players from the previous era

Patrick Roy - Won the cup at 36 and took the Avs to game 7 of the Conference finals a year after

Chris Osgood - Won the cup at 36

Ed Belfour - Won the cup at 34 made it to the final again the year after and still had good numbers after that

Dominik Hasek - Won the cup at 37 or 38

 

So Markstrom being a Canuck goalie for 6 years isn't as bad as people think it is.

 

 

It is at 6x6

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1 minute ago, canuck73_3 said:

It is at 6x6

Yeah well if Vancouver could have afforded it then the 6 year commitment wouldn't be a problem. Problem is Benning screwed the cap. 

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1 hour ago, kanucks25 said:

They're both playing well - Calgary's struggles cannot be attributed to them.

 

I think a lot of fans underestimated what Tanev brought to the team here. I saw a lot of people who either didn't understand his effectiveness and/or put too much weight into his injury troubles.

 

You're seeing how important his 20 minutes of steady, almost mistake-free hockey is. We're a complete mess defensively right now and Tanev was a stabilizing force, even if he missed 15-20 games a season.

 

It's probably true that Tanev won't look great in 3 years. I think Calgary accepted that as they see their window being open for those upcoming 3 years.

 

We're not in the same boat, as we're essentially punting on this season and next due to cap mismanagement.

Tanev averaged 58 games a year for his 6 full seasons with the Canucks not including last year's shortened season (last year he did get hurt in the last game and would have missed the last 13 games if the season didn't stop).  That's almost 25 games on average per year.  In 2 of those years he only played half a season.  This was when he was in his prime in his mid 20's.  No way Benning should have given him a 4 year deal at age 31.  And he didn't , which was the smart move.  

 

Tanev was a stabilizing force for sure, but when you are only playing in 70% of the team's games on average it's not going to benefit the team long term.

Edited by Elias Pettersson
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1 minute ago, iinatcc said:

Yeah well if Vancouver could have afforded it then the 6 year commitment wouldn't be a problem. Problem is Benning screwed the cap. 

You are barking up the wrong tree. Goaltending is the least of our problems. 

Arguing about Tanev or Stecher is more legit as defense is the major problem. 

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7 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Completely agree, it's an unpopular move but props to JB because it's a hard decision.

 

If we signed Marky, we lose or have to trade Demko. Demko has far more potential (although looks brutal right now).

 

If we sign Tanev, we don't get a more durable Schmidt and that combined 10M in even 3 years is going to hurt.

 

If we signed Toffoli we'd have to clear 4M and that would have to be two forwards or a forward and Benn which I don't think was possible in this flat cap. Eriksson is stuck, Roussel + Virtanen/Benn is possible but clearly not on.

Or if he managed the cap better, he could have had both, and even Tofolli. 

 

You can build a strong top 6, have some young guys in the bottom 6, evaluate the bottom 6, add a veteran for a weak spot in the bottom 6, then go from there.

 

You build from the top up (top line, second line, top pairing, 2nd pairing) and try to fill the bottom with youth and a solid veteran. So far in this plan we have our starting goalie, top line (petey, Boes, Miller), Horvat for the 2nd line (Hogie is okay right now, but should have started as a top 9 forward, and Pearson is okay, but should just be a placeholder), Hughes for the top pairing, and Schmidt for the 2nd pairing (defense is a mess, so it's hard to really see what we have, but we should have had a sturdy top 4 right now). Then, as your young guns graduate and improve, you replace an aging player with them.

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7 minutes ago, Nathancanuck said:

Thanks. Yeah but they are also with the same agency now, I doubt one guy signs and the other one takes an offer sheet. Also who would offer Pettersson 6-8 years 8+ million? I don't know the rules (you probably do) but it would cost like 3-4 first round picks as compensation for such an offer sheet.. And he's no McDavid and we're in a flat cap.. I have a good feeling about their contracts.

Offer sheets can only be for a maximum of 7 years while the existing team can offer 8 years.. The below shows the compensation for losing a player to an offer sheet.

https://www.capfriendly.com/offer-sheet-calculator

$4,363,096 - $6,544,640
1 First Round Pick
1 Third Round Pick
Anaheim DucksArizona CoyotesBoston BruinsBuffalo SabresCalgary FlamesCarolina HurricanesChicago BlackhawksColorado AvalancheDallas StarsDetroit Red WingsEdmonton OilersFlorida PanthersLos Angeles KingsMinnesota WildMontreal CanadiensNashville PredatorsNew Jersey DevilsNew York IslandersNew York RangersOttawa SenatorsPhiladelphia FlyersPittsburgh PenguinsSan Jose SharksSt. Louis BluesTampa Bay LightningToronto Maple LeafsVegas Golden KnightsWashington CapitalsWinnipeg Jets Columbus Blue JacketsVancouver Canucks
$6,544,641 - $8,726,188
1 First Round Pick
1 Second Round Pick
1 Third Round Pick
Anaheim DucksArizona CoyotesBoston BruinsBuffalo SabresCalgary FlamesCarolina HurricanesChicago BlackhawksDallas StarsDetroit Red WingsEdmonton OilersFlorida PanthersLos Angeles KingsMinnesota WildMontreal CanadiensNashville PredatorsNew Jersey DevilsNew York IslandersNew York RangersOttawa SenatorsPhiladelphia FlyersPittsburgh PenguinsSan Jose SharksSt. Louis BluesToronto Maple LeafsVegas Golden KnightsWashington CapitalsWinnipeg Jets Colorado AvalancheColumbus Blue JacketsTampa Bay LightningVancouver Canucks
$8,726,189 - $10,907,735
2 First Round Picks
1 Second Round Pick
1 Third Round Pick
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2 hours ago, DarkIndianRises said:

As far as Toffoli goes, the Canucks were reportedly trying to move one of Boeser and Virtanen to clear space so that they could accommodate Toffoli’s salary but received low ball offers.  Had Benning accepted those low ball offers for either of Boeser or Virtanen, he would have been ridiculed around the league.  In fielding offers for Virtanen, the Canucks were looking to recoup the low first that was lost in the Miller deal, while looking to recoup both the first and good prospect lost in the Miller and Toffoli deals as it related to Boeser  (NOTE - Canucks were looking to move ONE of Boeser or Virtanen in the summer, not both).

 

The problem isn't the last off season it's that Bennig's past mistakes has finally gone back to haunt him. Those free agent signings created this situation where Vancouver had no cap space to improve the team when the young guys need it the most. And before anyone saying hindsight is 20-20, keep in mind a lot of hockey analysts from TSN, to Sportsnet, and even the NHL thought signing Roussel, Beagle, and Schaller were bad ideas. And there were already critisims in the Eriksson signing with people thinking it was too long (the number was ok at the time I admit but people would have preferred it to be 4 years at the time). Heck this is the reason why Trevor Linden decided to leave the organization, he knew this was coming.

 

2 hours ago, DarkIndianRises said:

1) The future is still bright.   2022/2023 is when our real "window" will start.    This season and maybe even next season is our 2007/2008.    

2) Be patient and enjoy the ride.   

My worry is not this year. My worry is the affect this will have on Boeser, Horvat, Huges, and Pettersson. This could be a case of the start of a losing culture. Or heck, dare I say, one of these players either walking or demanding a trade like Rick Nash ? Boeser is on his bridge deal. What if he decides to walk after the contract?

 

Edited by iinatcc
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I love how people just keep defending JB as if he isn’t the one that put us in cap hell with boarder line NHL players and unable to sign even one of Tanev, Toffoli, Markstrom or Stecher and instead let them go for nothing. I’d like some of the koolaid please

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