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[GDT/PGT] Vancouver Canucks @ Toronto Maple Laffs | February 8, 2021 | 4 p.m. PT | TVAS, SNP

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swept against MTL, swept against TOR - okay, that's proof enough, this team is real bad. Who's responsible? Probably everyone involved. 

 

I think Green and his bench coaches have lost the room and are out of ideas. One thing that bugged me was when Juolevi scored his 1st NHL against OTT and then he gets benched for 7 games straight. Oh yeah, great development coach. I think he ruined Virtanen as well. Whether it was he was too easy on him, Jake has had his hand held his whole career, and maybe that's not what he needed. Some guys on this team are pretty bad defensively, not great when the guy is a Dman. Who is coaching the D anyway, and maybe more importantly, what is he coaching them? Bye Baumer... The PP and the PK have been abysmal - later Brown. 

 

They better fix this team quick, before the young guys start thinking about greener pastures (no pun intended)

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Well yesterday was lost with 2 shifts from our bottom 2 lines matched up against their top lines. 

Canucks controlled the play for the first 2 periods but I wonder how much of it was the Leafs not really skating hard. Once the Leafs started skating, Canucks back end couldn't handle the pressure. 

Schmidt has come from a solid team to this tire fire with him being one of the problems. I wonder what his take is and why things are going so poorly and what difference he is seeing between Vegas and Canucks

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22 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

swept against MTL, swept against TOR - okay, that's proof enough, this team is real bad. Who's responsible? Probably everyone involved. 

 

I think Green and his bench coaches have lost the room and are out of ideas. One thing that bugged me was when Juolevi scored his 1st NHL against OTT and then he gets benched for 7 games straight. Oh yeah, great development coach. I think he ruined Virtanen as well. Whether it was he was too easy on him, Jake has had his hand held his whole career, and maybe that's not what he needed. Some guys on this team are pretty bad defensively, not great when the guy is a Dman. Who is coaching the D anyway, and maybe more importantly, what is he coaching them? Bye Baumer... The PP and the PK have been abysmal - later Brown. 

 

They better fix this team quick, before the young guys start thinking about greener pastures (no pun intended)

I don’t think this team is as bad as they have played but I agree that they are seriously deficient in a lot of areas. The handling of Juolevi was a head scratcher but he played well last night and Green acknowledged it so don’t be surprised if he sticks in the line up moving forward. It’s going to be so difficult for an immediate fix. Firing the coach is the obvious choice but I’ve said before unless you already have his replacement waiting in the wings and with the COVID protocols in place it could be a few weeks before he is behind the bench and furthermore in the chance Benning is let go at seasons end, you’d think a new GM would want to hire his own coach. 
 

IMO, let’s just wait and see if they can right the ship in the coming home stand before making any knee jerk moves. They are already digging themselves a hole they might not be able to get out of and the next few games will be the deciding factor on the season. If it’s already lost at that point, ride it out and reevaluate in the off-season where it’s easier to make wholesale changes and prepare for next season. 

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1 hour ago, Darius said:

 

One thing I forgot to mention, which puts some context to your question, was that in 93-94 (the year of the big cup run) the Canucks had taken a step back in the regular season.  After finishing with 90+ points in '92 and then 100+ points in '93 they were a .500 team in 93-94.  As much as we love Quinn in retrospect, at the time of that disappointing regular season there were some grumblings about his coaching abilities.  Quinn ended up getting the team to the finals and the rest is history (and the mediocrity of the regular season was forgotten)

 

Regarding Green - the way I look at it is this.  A roster can make a coach look better than he is or it can make a coach look worse than he is.  I think this roster and the way it has lost confidence makes Green look worse than he is.    Generally speaking many of the predictions I read from analysts from around the league had the team taking a step sideways or backwards this year - none of the rational for these predictions were hinged on Green's capabilities as a coach.  The roster was judged to be deficient and one that could probably not finish ahead of the top 3-4 teams in the division.   I didnt like reading these predictions, but sometimes its good to get a dose of objectivity.

 

I personally think there are things he could be doing better and as a relatively new/young nhl coach he probably is still gaining experience on the job.  Can he take the team to the next level?  Coaching systems aside I dont know if Green has the intangible qualities a guy like Quinn had - the ability to push the right buttons, the relationship he had with the players to make them go through a wall for him. 

 

Again going back to history....we do have somewhat of a precedent for this.  Alain Vigneault in 07-08.   V had a pretty good year in his first year, second year he coaches the team to about .500 and misses the playoffs.  Nonis gets fired.  Gillis comes in as GM.    Everyone thought Gillis would fire Vigneault.  Up to that point V was coaching the team to take a more defensive posture.  Insead of firing Vigneault, Gillis saw something in V and he directed him to coach the team to take a more offensive posture - changing the style of the team to one that attacks more.  With the right roster additions the change in coaching style turned the team around.

 

The whole story is described here:  https://www.si.com/hockey/news/coach-alain-vigneault-agrees-to-contract-extension-with-vancouver-canucks

 

Back to Vigneault.  I remember some fans wanted him gone in his first couple years.  Lots of parallels with what is going on today.  A good gauge of this was reading fan sentiments regarding V on internet forums.  Before CDC was the go to fan forum we had the Canucks usenet news group .  Here is an example of what fans of the day thought of V (lots of similarities to what we are reading now)

 

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.sports.hockey.nhl.vanc-canucks/c/eWWwPKxO6sU/m/ShBkdI_KsRUJ

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.sports.hockey.nhl.vanc-canucks/c/gzzUyNK3qB4/m/CRoX1Iu4SasJ

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.sports.hockey.nhl.vanc-canucks/c/t7_G5xeg1CA/m/jgiSeYKQKAwJ

 

It goes to show, the right roster can surely change how fans perceive the coach - this is the same guy that took the team to the finals in 2011.

 

A bigger issue than if Green can take this team to the next level (IMHO) is if Benning can take this team to the next level.   Can he do what Quinn did in the early 90s and what Gillis did from the mid 2000's - make the right roster changes.

 

I hate to say this but I dont think he can.

I think this is a really fair post.

 

Something was different about coach V. He had a lot more experience - and even he had to learn new things. One thing he did was line matching and he was decent at trying to trick the opponents into putting on a favourable matchup for the Canucks. He capitalized on offensive zones. He used timeouts more than Green ever did. IMO, Vigneault was/is a much better tactician than Green.

 

Like Vigneault, he had his own favourites. If Vigneault had it his way, he'll be playing vets. Players like Pettersson would get benched just as much as Juolevi would especially after a mistake.

 

Neither of the coaches are good examples of how to handle a bench. But the experience of Vigneault is much more understandable. Green is out of element unfortunately. No adaptations.

 

 

 

 

 

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So with the series against Calgary, if we lose these games the season is a write off. This years draft is loaded with big D. 
 

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/394730/simon-edvinsson

 

this guy could be our Edler replacement. Also on the list of top ranked defencement.

 

Owen Power

Brandt Clarke

Luke Hughes 

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6 minutes ago, Wayne Glensky said:

So with the series against Calgary, if we lose these games the season is a write off. This years draft is loaded with big D. 
 

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/394730/simon-edvinsson

 

this guy could be our Edler replacement. Also on the list of top ranked defencement.

 

Owen Power

Brandt Clarke

Luke Hughes 

Hopefully there's a new GM announcing this pick

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7 hours ago, LAorVancouver said:

This is not hidden knowledge, its obvious and has been pointed out by TSN crew as well as our managment. It will reflect in the contract negotiations as well, the inability to take a hit and perform well in the defensive zone will limit Hughes contract to about 7 mill a year.

Quinn is currently the highest scoring dman and top 10 overall in the league. Is that sustainable? Maybe not. But he will be up there among the best come contract time. And who knows, maybe he puts on some weight and improve on his deficiencies. If we don't pay him 10mil, then some other team will. And that will be another talking point in Canucks history.

 

1 hour ago, AlwaysACanuckFan said:

Is that Jake 50 years from now?

Maybe in just 5 years?

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17 hours ago, oldnews said:

Something that doesn't need figuring out.

 

"I lost the puck - it wound up in the back of the net (again) - the insurance goal that put us down 2,  11 seconds after giving up the 2nd goal. 

I need to make better decisions with the puck."

 

I don't care who he means - he needs to take care of his own play - that is what is within his control - and he's not as good as he was last season - so maybe the place to look is in the mirror, first and foremost.

 

I'm not complaining about his play - I see him making some very good efforts - and more mistakes than we're used to seeing him make - but regardless, feeding into this 'we lost players' narrative is not the way out of their struggles.

I will complain about his game. Teams are playing him different. When he has the puck, they are clogging up the neutral zone and challenging him to skate the puck, which has caused giveaways. Tanev was a better than average passer, so when pressed, QH could move the puck to Tanev for the outlet, Jordie Benn a not, so QH feels more pressure to move the puck himself rather than making the sure pass to his partner. It is up to the coaches to recognize this and give QH a better passing partner. Good players have skill, great players evolve their game. It's up to QH to recognize when a team has his number and do something else.

Edited by canuckleheads fan
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55 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

Well yesterday was lost with 2 shifts from our bottom 2 lines matched up against their top lines. 

Canucks controlled the play for the first 2 periods but I wonder how much of it was the Leafs not really skating hard. Once the Leafs started skating, Canucks back end couldn't handle the pressure. 

Schmidt has come from a solid team to this tire fire with him being one of the problems. I wonder what his take is and why things are going so poorly and what difference he is seeing between Vegas and Canucks

The biggest difference is pretty easy to see in terms of deployment at least in Schmidt's case.

 

Here are his zone starts for his entire career.

13-14   55.8 oZ 44.2 dZ

14-15   58.7 oZ 41.3 dZ

15-16   55.5 oZ 44.5 dZ

16-17   59.4 oZ 40.6 dZ

17-18   46.7 oZ 53.3 dZ

18-19   46.4 oZ 53.6 dZ

19-20   49.7 oZ 50.3 dZ

20-21   37.5 oZ 62.5 dZ

 

Always in the 40-50% range for DZone starts until this season where Green has him at 62.5% DZone starts. 10-20% more Dzone starts than at anytime in his career is not letting us see the Schmidt that was in Washington and Vegas. So either Schmidt gets better defensively, Green evens out his zone starts or he just continues to be un-impressive in his current role.

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36 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

Hopefully there's a new GM announcing this pick

Careful for what you wish for.  I'm on the fence as far as JB goes - but for sure we could do much worse.   Holland with all his might and "experience"  couldn't make it work with Detroit's rebuild, and Yzerman with all his untarnished glory - is going to lose some of that - the same way Babcock did coaching TO.  

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1 minute ago, IBatch said:

Careful for what you wish for.  I'm on the fence as far as JB goes - but for sure we could do much worse.   Holland with all his might and "experience"  couldn't make it work with Detroit's rebuild, and Yzerman with all his untarnished glory - is going to lose some of that - the same way Babcock did coaching TO.  

I prefer to keep Benning for now but replace the coaching staff if things don’t turn around in the next series.

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17 minutes ago, GritGrinder said:

The biggest difference is pretty easy to see in terms of deployment at least in Schmidt's case.

 

Here are his zone starts for his entire career.

13-14   55.8 oZ 44.2 dZ

14-15   58.7 oZ 41.3 dZ

15-16   55.5 oZ 44.5 dZ

16-17   59.4 oZ 40.6 dZ

17-18   46.7 oZ 53.3 dZ

18-19   46.4 oZ 53.6 dZ

19-20   49.7 oZ 50.3 dZ

20-21   37.5 oZ 62.5 dZ

 

Always in the 40-50% range for DZone starts until this season where Green has him at 62.5% DZone starts. 10-20% more Dzone starts than at anytime in his career is not letting us see the Schmidt that was in Washington and Vegas. So either Schmidt gets better defensively, Green evens out his zone starts or he just continues to be un-impressive in his current role.

 Maybe that had a lot to do with QHs and Edler not having it and no longer having it right!   Same as Myers playing the toughest minutes 5 x 5 and helping the best he can with special teams.   It's a roster issue as well.  

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10 minutes ago, IBatch said:

 Maybe that had a lot to do with QHs and Edler not having it and no longer having it right!   Same as Myers playing the toughest minutes 5 x 5 and helping the best he can with special teams.   It's a roster issue as well.  

It also doesn't help that 70% of our starts are in the dZ..

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11 minutes ago, IBatch said:

 Maybe that had a lot to do with QHs and Edler not having it and no longer having it right!   Same as Myers playing the toughest minutes 5 x 5 and helping the best he can with special teams.   It's a roster issue as well.  

Yeah well unless they resign Edler or give $8m to Dougie Hamilton then the top 4 next season looks like Myers, Hughes, Schmidt and Juolevi. No offense to those 4 players but that has to be the softest top 4 in the entire league. 

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2 hours ago, Chris12345 said:

Exactly. The owner doesn't work the phones but still approves major strategy, budgets and or changes.

That's my guess at least.

I'd love to learn the dynamic interaction of hockey management.

Aqua can't simply barge in and fire the obviously underachieving Baumer?

The chain would require Aqua instructing Benning who hired Green, to demand Green fire the guy he hired?

How does this work in practice? Do you fire the guy who won't fire the guy who won't fire the guy you want fired?

Yet, you'd think any such interference would surely undermine the authorities of both GM and head coach and surely result in their resignations?

 

And we think we're in trouble now?

 

A new GM wouldn't have the emotional/ego attachment to Bennings draft picks.

Hell, he might even view the recent poutings and play somewhat less benevolently.

Once he considers the expected contract demands of Quinn and EP, might he look to cash in early?

He'd get 4 decent, existing young NHL-ready players in exchange and mebbe even shed most of that cap restriction into any trades.

Can they not both walk once they've honoured their entry contracts?

 

Not what I'd want to see, but I wonder if we're getting closer to that kind of management conversation.

Knee-jerks firings have unseen consequences.

 

  

 

 

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Can we call up Sven and move LE to Utica? Would much rather have Sven be an option for the team, I mean we have lost 5 in a row...why wouldn't you put someone like Sven in?? Would allow us to shuffle the lines around more with his skill set on the team

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1 hour ago, NUCKER67 said:

swept against MTL, swept against TOR - okay, that's proof enough, this team is real bad. Who's responsible? Probably everyone involved. 

 

I think Green and his bench coaches have lost the room and are out of ideas. One thing that bugged me was when Juolevi scored his 1st NHL against OTT and then he gets benched for 7 games straight. Oh yeah, great development coach. I think he ruined Virtanen as well. Whether it was he was too easy on him, Jake has had his hand held his whole career, and maybe that's not what he needed. Some guys on this team are pretty bad defensively, not great when the guy is a Dman. Who is coaching the D anyway, and maybe more importantly, what is he coaching them? Bye Baumer... The PP and the PK have been abysmal - later Brown. 

 

They better fix this team quick, before the young guys start thinking about greener pastures (no pun intended)

LOL

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3 minutes ago, Canuckster86 said:

Can we call up Sven and move LE to Utica?

maybe find the answer to this question before asking the next one?

 

 

3 minutes ago, Canuckster86 said:

why wouldn't you put someone like Sven in??

 

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