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(Rumour) Virtanen on the trade block


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Just now, J-Dizzle said:

 

Y’all need to go have a look at that draft in it’s entirety. It was a baaaaaad year. Jake is still a first round pick in a redraft of that year (before his struggles the last couple months probably top 20). 

yeah thats a good argument, based on production Jake is around 25th or so, so technically you could say he belonged someone in the later 1st round. 

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5 minutes ago, J-Dizzle said:

 

Y’all need to go have a look at that draft in it’s entirety. It was a baaaaaad year. Jake is still a first round pick in a redraft of that year (before his struggles the last couple months probably top 20). 

Do you have some sources for that?

No redrafts I have seen have him that high, he is a late 1st rounder or later.  None of them include his bad performance for the last calendar year and the most optimistic one had him at 22 and it was done right at the end of his big hot streak in the middle of last year, and doesn't account for the fact he has fallen off a cliff since last February which would absolutely drop him farther down in a redraft again.

https://www.nhl.com/news/revisiting-the-2014-nhl-draft-david-pastrnak-replaces-aaron-ekblad/c-307746004
https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/capitals/redrafting-2014-nhl-draft-jakub-vrana-top-10-pick
https://theathletic.com/1584416/2020/02/06/pronman-re-drafting-the-nhls-class-of-2014/

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50 minutes ago, GetFocht said:

It's fine that you want to hitch your wagon to Jake. The rest of us see Brad Isbister while you hope for Brad Marchand.

 

He's done in Vancouver.

How that was the conclusion you came to based off my posts is beyond me. Next time I'll avoid engaging with you because you clearly create your our narrative regardless of what the other person is saying. Have a good day, and no need to further respond to any of my posts in the future.

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5 minutes ago, Provost said:

Do you have some sources for that?

No redrafts I have seen have him that high, he is a late 1st rounder or later.  None of them include his bad performance for the last calendar year and the most optimistic one had him at 22 and it was done right at the end of his big hot streak in the middle of last year, and doesn't account for the fact he has fallen off a cliff since last February which would absolutely drop him farther down in a redraft again.

https://www.nhl.com/news/revisiting-the-2014-nhl-draft-david-pastrnak-replaces-aaron-ekblad/c-307746004
https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/capitals/redrafting-2014-nhl-draft-jakub-vrana-top-10-pick
https://theathletic.com/1584416/2020/02/06/pronman-re-drafting-the-nhls-class-of-2014/

My ‘source’ is looking at the draft itself. I think given this year he’s fallen to the bottom end of the first (20+). At the end of last year I think he’d snuck back into the top 20 so my assessment isn’t worlds apart from what you’re saying.... I’m a little more optimistic. 
 

You can go look through all seven rounds, I just don’t see a lot of quality in that draft and certainly not enough of it to bump him into the second round. 
 

Edit: and to be fair some of the names that jumped were late first round so.... a lot of teams missed on them.  In my opinion if we were going to boil it down to a ‘mistake’ it would be that we took Jake over Ehlers. 

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14 minutes ago, shayster007 said:

How that was the conclusion you came to based off my posts is beyond me. Next time I'll avoid engaging with you because you clearly create your our narrative regardless of what the other person is saying. Have a good day, and no need to further respond to any of my posts in the future.

Sure, bye Felicia. 

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24 minutes ago, J-Dizzle said:

My ‘source’ is looking at the draft itself. I think given this year he’s fallen to the bottom end of the first (20+). At the end of last year I think he’d snuck back into the top 20 so my assessment isn’t worlds apart from what you’re saying.... I’m a little more optimistic. 
 

You can go look through all seven rounds, I just don’t see a lot of quality in that draft and certainly not enough of it to bump him into the second round. 
 

Edit: and to be fair some of the names that jumped were late first round so.... a lot of teams missed on them.  In my opinion if we were going to boil it down to a ‘mistake’ it would be that we took Jake over Ehlers. 

respect your opinion.

In my opinion players like Fiala and Vrana are way better than Virtanen, because they contribute consistently.

In hindsight it's easy,  but drafting a player like Virtanen at #6 overall with this mindset and inconsistency, lack of work ethic .... is a mistake - in my point of view.

 

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3 minutes ago, Wolfgang Durst said:

respect your opinion.

In my opinion players like Fiala and Vrana are way better than Virtanen, because they contribute consistently.

In hindsight it's easy,  but drafting a player like Virtanen at #6 overall with this mindset and inconsistency, lack of work ethic .... is a mistake - in my point of view.

 

do you really think that was reasonably foreseeable? were there reports of this prior to his draft? 

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Brad Isbister, played 541 NHL games with 18 play off games.

106 goals 116 assists for 222 points,  1 goal 2 assists in play offs.

Decent career.

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26 minutes ago, gurn said:

Brad Isbister, played 541 NHL games with 18 play off games.

106 goals 116 assists for 222 points,  1 goal 2 assists in play offs.

Decent career.

So you are saying that we can only vainly dream about Jake reaching the dizzying heights of Isbister's career?

Sounds right to me.

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31 minutes ago, Provost said:

So you are saying that we can only vainly dream about Jake reaching the dizzying heights of Isbister's career?

Sounds right to me.

 

59 minutes ago, gurn said:

Brad Isbister, played 541 NHL games with 18 play off games.

106 goals 116 assists for 222 points,  1 goal 2 assists in play offs.

Decent career.

Jake Virtanen 299 games  51 goals 45 assists        

Nothing wrong with Isbister's career or Jake's, what is wrong with both careers is what people originally expected of them, and then kept expecting of them.

People get way too wrapped up in OMG he isn't a diamond, and forget that other gem stones have worth.

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3 hours ago, GetFocht said:

At 6th overall, Jake was a poor pick when you look at the rest of the round. 

 

Nylander, Ehlers, Larkin, Pastrnak etc . 

That ignores the just as bad or worse players taken before him and just after him and is all captain hindsight.

 

No draft ever gets selected as linear best-worst player.

 

Would I take a mulligan if I could master time and space and with hindsight..? Sure. 

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2 hours ago, gurn said:

Brad Isbister, played 541 NHL games with 18 play off games.

106 goals 116 assists for 222 points,  1 goal 2 assists in play offs.

Decent career.

Now do Marchand's numbers.

 

Here, I'll help

770gp

300 goals

669 pts

Which is what we want out of 6th overall. 

 

 

 

Edited by GetFocht
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1 hour ago, gurn said:

 

Jake Virtanen 299 games  51 goals 45 assists        

Nothing wrong with Isbister's career or Jake's, what is wrong with both careers is what people originally expected of them, and then kept expecting of them.

People get way too wrapped up in OMG he isn't a diamond, and forget that other gem stones have worth.

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At 6th overall it's not about being a diamond, Lidstrom was a diamond, Jake should have been a blue chip and instead turned into a potato chip. 

 

His career trajectory does not match his draft position and his play this year is reflective of other issues (some are not of his own doing I am sure). 

 

So let's move him, give him a fresh start and replace him with Zack every night. 

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3 hours ago, Provost said:

Do you have some sources for that?

No redrafts I have seen have him that high, he is a late 1st rounder or later.  None of them include his bad performance for the last calendar year and the most optimistic one had him at 22 and it was done right at the end of his big hot streak in the middle of last year, and doesn't account for the fact he has fallen off a cliff since last February which would absolutely drop him farther down in a redraft again.

https://www.nhl.com/news/revisiting-the-2014-nhl-draft-david-pastrnak-replaces-aaron-ekblad/c-307746004
https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/capitals/redrafting-2014-nhl-draft-jakub-vrana-top-10-pick
https://theathletic.com/1584416/2020/02/06/pronman-re-drafting-the-nhls-class-of-2014/

Let me get this straight, you're asking for a "source" for his opinion?

 

You then go on to give your opinion which is, at least in part, based on the opinions of other people, whose opinions are perhaps generally well regarded, but are still opinions. As they support your views and biases, you put forth that they should be seen as "valid" sources which should therefore be accepted by everyone else...

 

So, how was breakfast this morning? Do you have some sources for your response?

 

                                                                          regards,  G.

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54 minutes ago, Gollumpus said:

Let me get this straight, you're asking for a "source" for his opinion?

 

You then go on to give your opinion which is, at least in part, based on the opinions of other people, whose opinions are perhaps generally well regarded, but are still opinions. As they support your views and biases, you put forth that they should be seen as "valid" sources which should therefore be accepted by everyone else...

 

So, how was breakfast this morning? Do you have some sources for your response?

 

                                                                          regards,  G.

That is about the most circular logic I have encountered and weirdly trying to create some argument where there is none.

 

He said in a redraft Jake is taken at a certain point... not that it was his opinion.  We responded to each other quite politely and he clarified it was from his perspective and that it wasn’t far from what the experts said.  Fair game... totally accept that.  Now you are offended and confused about it?

 

I provided the actual redrafts done that I could find, not picking some that made a predetermined argument.  It actually matters that they are well respected sources... that is how you selects sources.  Posting a trade rumour from Bob Mackenzie has a different meaning than posting a rumour from “some guy on Twitter”.

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1 hour ago, Gollumpus said:

Let me get this straight, you're asking for a "source" for his opinion?

 

You then go on to give your opinion which is, at least in part, based on the opinions of other people, whose opinions are perhaps generally well regarded, but are still opinions. As they support your views and biases, you put forth that they should be seen as "valid" sources which should therefore be accepted by everyone else...

 

So, how was breakfast this morning? Do you have some sources for your response?

 

                                                                          regards,  G.

I'm still waiting for a 'source' on the Virtanen to Ottawa in exchange for taking Eriksson - that Benning allegedly rejected....

Don't hold your breath.

Or the Virtanen cost the team 30 goals 'metric'....

Cornflakes.

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Someone here is talking about logic, but this is the same person who disputes evidence contrary to his position as "half a draft list". :rolleyes:

 

 

On 2/28/2021 at 8:42 PM, Provost said:

Basically none of the pundit/prospect  lists had Virtanen that high.

Most had Nylander or Ehlers.

 

I did an in-depth on the various lists in another thread and compared them to Benning.

 

Button and Pronman did better than Benning overall.  Most were worse just on the basis of not picking Petterson where he was picked.

 

I remember thinking Virtanen was a stretch and we could have traded down to get him if he is who we wanted.  My pick that year wasn’t as good as Nylander/Ehlers... but I had Ritchie as the BPA when we drafted, and I take him over Jake any day now too.

 

https://editorinleaf.com/2014/06/23/2014-nhl-draft-profile-jake-virtanen/

 

Corey Pronman (ESPN): 11

International Scouting Services: 7

Future Considerations: 10

Central Scouting – North American Skaters: 6

Craig Button (TSN): 43

Hockey Prospect: 18 

Bob McKenzie (TSN): 8

 

5 hours ago, Provost said:

Do you have some sources for that?

No redrafts I have seen have him that high, he is a late 1st rounder or later.  None of them include his bad performance for the last calendar year and the most optimistic one had him at 22 and it was done right at the end of his big hot streak in the middle of last year, and doesn't account for the fact he has fallen off a cliff since last February which would absolutely drop him farther down in a redraft again.

https://www.nhl.com/news/revisiting-the-2014-nhl-draft-david-pastrnak-replaces-aaron-ekblad/c-307746004
https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/capitals/redrafting-2014-nhl-draft-jakub-vrana-top-10-pick
https://theathletic.com/1584416/2020/02/06/pronman-re-drafting-the-nhls-class-of-2014/

No, Provost, I am not engaging with you.

 

This is just proof that some posters' "logic" is flat out dishonest. Constantly shifting argument parameters to make your argument fit is why it's dishonest. That is the point of my post. I do not intend to speak to Provost about his rebuttals.

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