Let`s all chill and give ourselves and the team a bit of time thread

[Nuxfanabroad]

Appreciate threads like these. We have a lot of prime youth to build around, potentially leading to a powerhouse. Might take 2 or 3 seasons..why let it cause ulcers?

 

It's like a long stretch of early road with potholes & speed-bumps is causing a change in travel plans.

[Davathor]

This seasons real close to over, building a deficit thats going to be impossible to overcome. The real shame, and what has me so upset, is that this may be a once in a lifetime season, canadian dream match-ups, rivalries we've forgotten and will build, all canadian round 1 playoffs, and future bragging rights. More hockey per week than any of have ever seen and likely ever will.

 

And in typical Canucks fashion, they backed themselves into cap hell, let go of the (apparently) wrong guys, and iced the worst Canucks team this decade for this historic season.

 

Just typical.

 

I'll always be a Canucks fan, but this season is so dissapointing and embarrassing I need to take a step back from this train wreck. Can't keep ruining my day watching and hoping this garbage pile turns into gold. 

[brownky]

2 hours ago, DSVII said:

The 'Jim is learning' narrative is going to age as well as Myer's contract, and all the bloat he handed out well after Loui. The average GM tenure is around 5 seasons. After 7 I think we've seen enough from him.

 

This isn't preschool. When you are GM of a billion dollar franchise operating in an environment with 31 other sharks who want your blood in the water, you have expectations and need to be held to account for falling short. 

 

I think what the 'he is learning' crowd is missing is this isn't a vacuum. While GMJB is taking babysteps other clubs are adding and improving their rosters and also receiving top picks and prospects and signing savvy contracts. We are falling behind and this mgmt group is responsible. We've already seen Toronto lap us with their compete and rebuild in 2013-14 to now and New York as early as 2017 to now. I wouldn't be surprised to see LA and Chi return to relevance before Jim figures it out.

 

I mean....we believed in Jake for so long thinking he'll pull it together next season. I feel some are approaching that level of hope with Benning. If it does happen fine, but its not going to happen here. A fresh start and vision is best for all.

 

 

I think you are inferring things that are mistaken. "Every" GM learns as they go. For example, Tallon 'should' have been shown the door for bungling the RFA contracts by your argument (and was effectively demoted by Chicago) but... mistake or not he got the job done despite how garbage Chicago was when they started - and due to what he did, Chicago won. Just because other franchises decide to do things a certain way, which is 'rapid fire dismissal of personnel' doesn't necessarily mean we should follow suit.

 

As far as "we've already seen Toronto lap us" - Umm... How deep have the Leafs gotten in the playoffs in the last 50 years again? At least they're good in a 6 team league. Oh, no, 7 teams this time. And they'll still get killed in the playoffs. When you say New York, I presume you mean the Rangers... or is it the Islanders, neither of which are setting the world alight this year with their roughly .500 records each.

 

As for the 'bloat' after Loui, I'm not sure there's a ton of it. It seems like a lot, because every guy is 'about a mil' too high - which is probably about 6m too high in total salary (ignoring Loui) - but at the time of most of the signings, this team was so dismal that attracting anybody to play here would have been difficult. Results matter, and we were not a 'highlight' destination like the Rangers or Tampa... so you've got to pay to get the guys worth playing. The two real options were: Pay for guys, or "be the Oilers" and throw the drafted kids to the sharks to see who floats at the end of it. I suppose the third option would be "Keep playing Chaput and Megna" but... no. This year is definitely a pain year due to Luongo and the flat cap via Covid - neither of these things were Benning's doing. There is a lot of dead money leaving the books this year.

 

Probably the only thing you're correct in saying is that it isn't a vacuum. Every GM is going to make mistakes, I'd rather keep the guy who has drafted relatively well and has made a few hindsight-coloured mistakes that are easy to learn from rather than empty the cannister and go get a new one who will make different mistakes. Perhaps better, perhaps worse.

 

Jim should be on "thinner ice" than when he started, but I don't see a reason to toss him overboard yet. The coaching staff may yet need a total overhaul though, covid or not, if they are failing to motivate properly or the systems don't improve.

[Dumb Nuck]

14 hours ago, ImConfused said:

Forget an experienced NHL coach. Send in your resume!

 

You got this!

 

  Hide contents

In all seriousness, this is a pretty level-headed take on things to come and I'm glad someone around here besides me has the fortitude enough to endure a year or two more of pain in order to get to where we want the team to be. Nice work OP

 

You’re assuming we’ll get to where we want to be, I disagree, the path we’re on now is at best wasting time and at worst creating irreparable harm that may result in another wasted decade. After 5 decades I don’t think I could take another one.

[The Lock]

2 minutes ago, Dumb Nuck said:

You’re assuming we’ll get to where we want to be, I disagree, the path we’re on now is at best wasting time and at worst creating irreparable harm that may result in another wasted decade. After 5 decades I don’t think I could take another one.

Just to point something out here: we're very much focused on our own team on this board. However, there are about to be 32 teams in this league. Why am I saying this? If each team were to take their turn winning the stanley cup, they'd still be waiting for 3 decades. But this isn't obviously what happens. You have dynasties which end up winning multiple cups. You have teams like we have who haven't even won a cup. So realistically, a team at this point should expect to take more than 32 years and anything sooner is kind of gravy. Sounds dismal? Of course, but I think it also shows how difficult things are now.

 

So, why am I saying this? Well, we've been around for just over 5 decades. We didn't capitalize when we had less teams in the league. Because there's 32 teams, it's going to be harder than ever. I don't know if or when we have the right team to do it. I don't know if this team's the right team to do it. It might. It might not. We don't really know.

 

We can hope though and this is why I think there's nothing wrong with optimism. You can look at things in the most dismal light possible. Complain about everything, or you can accept that there's 32 teams in this league, cheer for this team, and when one day we win that cup, it'll feel that much better.

[Dumb Nuck]

10 minutes ago, The Lock said:

Just to point something out here: we're very much focused on our own team on this board. However, there are about to be 32 teams in this league. Why am I saying this? If each team were to take their turn winning the stanley cup, they'd still be waiting for 3 decades. But this isn't obviously what happens. You have dynasties which end up winning multiple cups. You have teams like we have who haven't even won a cup. So realistically, a team at this point should expect to take more than 32 years and anything sooner is kind of gravy. Sounds dismal? Of course, but I think it also shows how difficult things are now.

 

So, why am I saying this? Well, we've been around for just over 5 decades. We didn't capitalize when we had less teams in the league. Because there's 32 teams, it's going to be harder than ever. I don't know if or when we have the right team to do it. I don't know if this team's the right team to do it. It might. It might not. We don't really know.

 

We can hope though and this is why I think there's nothing wrong with optimism. You can look at things in the most dismal light possible. Complain about everything, or you can accept that there's 32 teams in this league, cheer for this team, and when one day we win that cup, it'll feel that much better.

I’ve been saying the same thing since AV, these turn the other cheek coaches don’t win Cups so right now we’re heading in the wrong direction, we are further away from a Cup now than we have ever been this millennium, every day that passes without change is another day wasted and after 50 years wasting more time is the frustrating part.

[The Lock]

Just now, Dumb Nuck said:

I’ve been saying the same thing since AV, these turn the other cheek coaches don’t win Cups so right now we’re heading in the wrong direction, we are further away from a Cup now than we have ever been this millennium, every day that passes without change is another day wasted and after 50 years wasting more time is the frustrating part.

But the thing is, this is a long term dream. If you just focus on single seasons, single games, single moves by players, you're not going to understand the bigger picture. We're not farther from the cup than we were 2 years go, or 5 years ago. We're closer than that. I knew this season was going to be tough. It's a tough division we're in when you have 6 of 7 teams who are actually good teams. This isn't the season to have high expectations in my opinion.

 

I say we get out of our cap woes over the next couple of years and then we'll actually know if we have a contender or not. Overthinking it right now, does nothing. It just doesn't mean anything right now.

[Dumb Nuck]

2 minutes ago, The Lock said:

But the thing is, this is a long term dream. If you just focus on single seasons, single games, single moves by players, you're not going to understand the bigger picture. We're not farther from the cup than we were 2 years go, or 5 years ago. We're closer than that. I knew this season was going to be tough. It's a tough division we're in when you have 6 of 7 teams who are actually good teams. This isn't the season to have high expectations in my opinion.

 

I say we get out of our cap woes over the next couple of years and then we'll actually know if we have a contender or not. Overthinking it right now, does nothing. It just doesn't mean anything right now.

The way our team is being led right now is resulting in complacent play and bad habits being developed and the longer it continues the more these bad habits will be infused into our stars. I did not expect a cup this year but our players are not developing under Green and if he continues much longer this current core we have will be a write off and we’ll be waiting another decade to have a team that can contend. You don’t reach your destination when you’re travelling in the wrong direction.

[The Lock]

 

1 minute ago, Dumb Nuck said:

The way our team is being led right now is resulting in complacent play and bad habits being developed and the longer it continues the more these bad habits will be infused into our stars. I did not expect a cup this year but our players are not developing under Green and if he continues much longer this current core we have will be a write off and we’ll be waiting another decade to have a team that can contend. You don’t reach your destination when you’re travelling in the wrong direction.

This is why I said what I said earlier:

8 minutes ago, The Lock said:

But the thing is, this is a long term dream. If you just focus on single seasons, single games, single moves by players, you're not going to understand the bigger picture. .

It sounds to me like you've forgotten the overall picture here. Are we playing poorly right now? Of course. Does it mean we'll be playing poorly in a couple of years with or without Green? It says nothing about that at the moment.

[Dumb Nuck]

2 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

This is why I said what I said earlier:

It sounds to me like you've forgotten the overall picture here. Are we playing poorly right now? Of course. Does it mean we'll be playing poorly in a couple of years with or without Green? It says nothing about that at the moment.

The answer is yes we will be playing poorly in a couple years with Green, I see the big picture but you seem to think things will just work out no matter what happens, no they won’t and the things we do now will affect the next 10 years or so, sitting back with fingers crossed is not a strategic move.

[The Lock]

2 minutes ago, Dumb Nuck said:

The answer is yes we will be playing poorly in a couple years with Green, I see the big picture but you seem to think things will just work out no matter what happens, no they won’t and the things we do now will affect the next 10 years or so, sitting back with fingers crossed is not a strategic move.

You can claim all you want about the future. It's still the future. You don't know any of this no matter how much you claim you do. No one does. 

 

I'm going to be perfectly honest here. it's not my job to counter the negative people on this board. If you want to be negative about everything, that's your prerogative, but I've known people like that in real life. Those are the people I tend to cut out of my life. There's just no place for that in my opinion. It gets you nowhere but backwards in life.

[DSVII]

1 hour ago, brownky said:

1.) I think you are inferring things that are mistaken. "Every" GM learns as they go. For example, Tallon 'should' have been shown the door for bungling the RFA contracts by your argument (and was effectively demoted by Chicago) but... mistake or not he got the job done despite how garbage Chicago was when they started - and due to what he did, Chicago won. Just because other franchises decide to do things a certain way, which is 'rapid fire dismissal of personnel' doesn't necessarily mean we should follow suit.

 

2.) As far as "we've already seen Toronto lap us" - Umm... How deep have the Leafs gotten in the playoffs in the last 50 years again? At least they're good in a 6 team league. Oh, no, 7 teams this time. And they'll still get killed in the playoffs. When you say New York, I presume you mean the Rangers... or is it the Islanders, neither of which are setting the world alight this year with their roughly .500 records each.

 

3.) As for the 'bloat' after Loui, I'm not sure there's a ton of it. It seems like a lot, because every guy is 'about a mil' too high - which is probably about 6m too high in total salary (ignoring Loui) - but at the time of most of the signings, this team was so dismal that attracting anybody to play here would have been difficult. Results matter, and we were not a 'highlight' destination like the Rangers or Tampa... so you've got to pay to get the guys worth playing.

 

3.a The two real options were: Pay for guys, or "be the Oilers" and throw the drafted kids to the sharks to see who floats at the end of it. I suppose the third option would be "Keep playing Chaput and Megna" but... no. This year is definitely a pain year due to Luongo and the flat cap via Covid - neither of these things were Benning's doing. There is a lot of dead money leaving the books this year.

 

4.) Probably the only thing you're correct in saying is that it isn't a vacuum. Every GM is going to make mistakes, I'd rather keep the guy who has drafted relatively well and has made a few hindsight-coloured mistakes that are easy to learn from rather than empty the cannister and go get a new one who will make different mistakes. Perhaps better, perhaps worse.

 

Jim should be on "thinner ice" than when he started, but I don't see a reason to toss him overboard yet. The coaching staff may yet need a total overhaul though, covid or not, if they are failing to motivate properly or the systems don't improve.

I respect your conviction and don't expect to really convince you otherwise, but here are my thoughts:

 

1.) Well does this mean we shouldn't have let Gillis go then? His greatest mistake was not focusing enough on the draft, and a scouting department overhaul was talked about prior to his firing. Shouldn't he have gotten more chances to rebuild after only missing one season?

 

2.) Listen, i love ragging on the leafs as much as any Canucks fan, but let's take a look here:

 

How many times have they made playoffs in the last few years versus us? We have two appearances in the Benning Era since 2014, and the Leafs have three consecutive appearances after their #1 pick in 2016 plus the play in. yes they lost in the first round, but they took the stanley cup finalists to 7 games. That's nothing to scoff at. I'd say they are showing more consistent results in the regular season and making it to the dance than we are when it comes to making playoffs, especially considering the stacked division they are in (while we had to sell off our 1st and 2nd to make our last run in the pacific).

 

Which team's performance seems more sustainable today? I'll admit i keep thinking Toronto is due for their  painful cap crunch, but Dubas has navigated them pretty well so far.

 

Remember, we aren't talking how deep in the playoffs they go. We are talking making playoffs, because 'anything can happen'. That was a favorite saying for regime defenders here on Benning's mandate, so let's be consistent here. Even if they didn't make it deep, the Leafs have achieved Benning's mandate of just making it to the dance more times in the last 4 years than Benning has in his tenure of 7 years.

 

3.) Right now we have about $12 million in cap that is scratched or bought out (Baerschi/Jake/Loui/Spooner) how many other teams have this. I'd qualify this as a ton. This is not even counting the under performing free agent acquisitions who are here long term like Myers, Beagle, Roussel, Sutter which represent another $16 mil. That's already a 30% handicap 

 

3.a) There was a third option, hire cheap UFA depth guys to prop up the team and mentor the kids, we had those in Richardson, Bonino, Matthias, Hamhuis whom we let walk for nothing. Signing the overpaid UFAs did not prevent us from having an oilers style ending to our season (see 2016). Small things, like letting Nick Dowd ($700k) go to Washington to get Jay Beagle for ($3 mil) show a lack of foresight and cap control. 

 

4.) We differ in our opinion of Jim. I think even with his 7 year tenure here there are better candidates out there who have as you said, made mistakes and experienced successes and have a more impressive body of work to show for it. Someone with the pedigree of Hextall or Lombardi is more preferable than letting Jim stay to learn at his own pace. Besides, I think we've tapped Jim's potential here....I still don't think he's learned his lesson in pro-scouting (Sbisa -> Gudbranson -> Myers) and he hasn't shown a lick of any foreward planning in the Cap situation outside this offseason.

 

I do think this core is great, and we have a potential to go far with it, but I just don't have any faith in this group. Especially with the talent in the front office that has walked away from us over the years (Gilman, Brackett, Malholtra) something stinks there and there needs to be change to ensure this core is set going forward.

 

Hindsight should not be an excuse that is used to cover a lack of foresight. Which is what a good GM needs.

And GMJB absolutely should not be given another three years of this core's prime to 'learn' something he hasn't practiced in seven years.

 

 

 

Also, in the spirit of this thread title. while I do think we as fans should ask more of the product/team we pay to watch, I do encourage you all to 'chill' as in take a walk outside, exercise, and hang/zoom with friends and family and take care of yourselves during this time! After all, in the grand scheme of things, we are just arguing about a bunch of millionaires playing for billionaires. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by DSVII

[Dumb Nuck]

6 minutes ago, The Lock said:

You can claim all you want about the future. It's still the future. You don't know any of this no matter how much you claim you do. No one does. 

 

I'm going to be perfectly honest here. it's not my job to counter the negative people on this board. If you want to be negative about everything, that's your prerogative, but I've known people like that in real life. Those are the people I tend to cut out of my life. There's just no place for that in my opinion. It gets you nowhere but backwards in life.

So everyone is supposed to be all rainbows and lollipops? There is a difference between being negative about everything and pointing out a problem, I love our team, just not the coaching staff, I want to see them succeed, you’re the one happy with status quo. How many times have you dissed a player? Maybe Loui or Jake, I haven’t, only Green, if that’s being negative about everything so be it, better than sticking my head in the sand.

[The Lock]

Just now, Dumb Nuck said:

So everyone is supposed to be all rainbows and lollipops? There is a difference between being negative about everything and pointing out a problem, I love our team, just not the coaching staff, I want to see them succeed, you’re the one happy with status quo. How many times have you dissed a player? Maybe Loui or Jake, I haven’t, only Green, if that’s being negative about everything so be it, better than sticking my head in the sand.

I didn't say everyone's supposed to be rainbows and lollipops. I just think you've gone beyond "pointing out a problem".  If you don't want to take my word for it that's fine.

 

Also, chicken little never had his head stuck in the sand either. How else would he have been able to look up to claim the sky was falling.

[Dumb Nuck]

4 minutes ago, The Lock said:

I didn't say everyone's supposed to be rainbows and lollipops. I just think you've gone beyond "pointing out a problem".  If you don't want to take my word for it that's fine.

 

Also, chicken little never had his head stuck in the sand either. How else would he have been able to look up to claim the sky was falling.

Ok, so what’s your idea, sit back and do nothing?

[The Lock]

5 minutes ago, Dumb Nuck said:

Ok, so what’s your idea, sit back and do nothing?

At this point. Yes. Let it play out. Give it time.

[Dumb Nuck]

3 minutes ago, The Lock said:

At this point. Yes. Let it play out. Give it time.

Hasn’t it been playing out far too long now? At what point then do we throw in the towel? Our stars do have an expired date.

[The Lock]

Just now, Dumb Nuck said:

Hasn’t it been playing out far too long now? At what point then do we throw in the towel? Our stars do have an expired date.

Our stars don't expire as fast as milk expires dude. We have the time to let this play out. You talk like Pettersson's a 30 year old. lol

[Nucker 67]

It's not all bad, the Canucks have some great young players on the team and developing. Podkolzin could be here in the spring, and I think he'll be the player we wished Jake became. Hughes is young and so skilled, and he's making a lot of mistakes right now, but he'll learn. He's too smart.  Pettersson still looks like a kid at times, getting knocked off the puck, but he'll grow and one day could be a Forsberg type player. Not too shabby. Hoglander has playoff player written all over him, incredible pick (#40).

 

There is a lot of work for them to do, and big changes are needed with coaching/management, but this spring VAN might get another Top 10 Draft pick, maybe Top 5, and that player could become another superstar to play with Pettersson, Hoglander, Boeser and Podkolzin, or another elite Dman. Hope they get the right management in there to build a winner.

Edited February 10, 2021 by NUCKER67

[Dumb Nuck]

2 minutes ago, The Lock said:

Our stars don't expire as fast as milk expires dude. We have the time to let this play out. You talk like Pettersson's a 30 year old. lol

I’ve always been credited for being proactive, got me quite far in life.