Are people in the West being persecuted for their political beliefs?

[The Lock]

Just now, Violator said:

Weirdly enough they are the number one buyer of American goods as it means quality and dependability.

Yeah. It's kind of similar to why would you buy a German product over the cheaper Chinese product? So there is a way to change perception. A good example would be South Korea. Compare the world's view of South Korea 50 years ago compared with now.

[4petesake]

9 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Each like side likes to dismiss each others POV. Both sides have their own interpretation of what's right and wrong, both factually and morally.

 

Doesn't matter if you make a point. If you're on the other side it is considered invalid.

 

It helps makes it impossible to come together and have a meaningful conversation.

 

Edit: On top of that social media makes it easy to misinterpret and twist words. This is how a lot of misinformation is created.

In general this is true but I have had my opinion altered a few times by posters on this forum. I had strong feelings regarding vaccinating inmates but after reading opinions (I believe it might have been @Jimmy McGill and @PhillipBlunt) I realized my objections were way overblown. Reading the article that @Kryten provided reminded me that this is a serious issue although like @gurn I didn’t read it as left/right. I like to believe that our minds are still a little bit open.

[Violator]

17 minutes ago, The Lock said:

Yeah. It's kind of similar to why would you buy a German product over the cheaper Chinese product? So there is a way to change perception. A good example would be South Korea. Compare the world's view of South Korea 50 years ago compared with now.

But South Korea around the 1950s was I believe mostly a farming and fishing nation kind of like canada.weird how it takes a war and utter devastation to explode your economy. 

[Junkyard Dog]

1 minute ago, 4petesake said:

In general this is true but I have had my opinion altered a few times by posters on this forum. I had strong feelings regarding vaccinating inmates but after reading opinions (I believe it might have been @Jimmy McGill and @PhillipBlunt) I realized my objections were way overblown. Reading the article that @Kryten provided reminded me that this is a serious issue although like @gurn I didn’t read it as left/right. I like to believe that our minds are still a little bit open.

You're not really a part of what I am talking about then generally speaking. You're what we need more of. People willing to see other peoples perspectives.

 

Overall we are afraid of what we don't know and we hate what we are afraid of.

 

By having a conversation with the other side you're expanding your perspective and you eliminate any fear and hatred you might have toward people on the other side of the spectrum.

[Kryten]

32 minutes ago, The Lock said:

Would you perhaps be able to give a specific example of a field that's been lost because of the left?

 

I think the problem's more how a lot of scientific studies are being conducted. John Oliver did a good show once on scientific studies.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rnq1NpHdmw

 

Basically, there's a lot of "science" happening at the same time, where you have results that are funded by corporations and are just on in the best interest of the populace as a whole. So while, yes, there are issues happening that you are bringing up and I'm not denying that, there's also "science" that's not really science.

 

I think, when it comes to science, there's just a lot of murky waters. Don't get me wrong. I love science and read a lot about space and technology and learn a lot about physics, but how many studies are promoting chocolate and wine, and then saying the opposite a few years later?

Tuller and his loudest followers are left-wing ideologues. He is as left-wing as Ted Cruz is right-wing. We are talking about people who prefer crystals and naturopathy to real medical research. The article goes over the damage caused.

 

I don’t know why you posted that Jon Oliver clip (watched every episode btw). It has no relevance to scientists being bullied by activists. 
 

25 minutes ago, gurn said:

This is bad news for everybody. However I didn't see anything identifying a left vs right type of fight.

Just idiots against science.

I see you missed the part of the article which stated David Tuller was a professor at Berkeley 

[The Lock]

7 minutes ago, Kryten said:

Tuller and his loudest followers are left-wing ideologues. He is as left-wing as Ted Cruz is right-wing. We are talking about people who prefer crystals and naturopathy to real medical research. The article goes over the damage caused.

 

I don’t know why you posted that Jon Oliver clip (watched every episode btw). It has no relevance to scientists being bullied by activists. 

This still doesn't provide a field that's actually been stopped by left wing activists. It's your claim after all, so I was hoping you'd be able to provide evidence for that claim and that article doesn't really provide what I asked, at least from what I read.

Edited February 22, 2021 by The Lock

[Kryten]

1 minute ago, The Lock said:

This still doesn't provide a field that's actually been stopped by left wing activists. It's your claim after all, so I was hoping you'd be able to provide evidence for that claim and that article doesn't really provide what I asked, at least from what I read.

Who said anything about an entire field being stopped? If that is your only take away, I have a feeling you are leaning bad faith on this issue.

[The Lock]

18 minutes ago, Violator said:

But South Korea around the 1950s was I believe mostly a farming and fishing nation kind of like canada.weird how it takes a war and utter devastation to explode your economy. 

Or at least a certain event. Rwanda's another one actually who's really turned it around. Not even 30 years ago there was the Rwandan genocide and now it's one of the up and coming economies of Africa.

[The Lock]

1 minute ago, Kryten said:

Who said anything about an entire field being stopped? If that is your only take away, I have a feeling you are leaning bad faith on this issue.

Read the bolded. Your post earlier:

 

1 hour ago, Kryten said:

Science is under attack by BOTH extremes of the political spectrum, however; only the Left has been able to cancel entire branches of science because particularly loud individuals were offended by the results. Yes the Right cries about scientific results but the research is published no matter how much they whine. The Left keeps scientists in a state of fear that keeps them from doing the research at all. 

 

[Kryten]

Just now, The Lock said:

Read the bolded. Your post earlier:

 

 

Yes, a branch not a field 

 

Has CSF been successfully researched? No? Where is the lineup of scientists to solve this problem? There isn’t one. Why not?

All answered by the article. 
 

JFC, stay on target and don’t lose the thread by pointing out one exaggeration. 

[PhillipBlunt]

59 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Each like side likes to dismiss each others POV. Both sides have their own interpretation of what's right and wrong, both factually and morally.

 

Doesn't matter if you make a point. If you're on the other side it is considered invalid.

 

It helps makes it impossible to come together and have a meaningful conversation.

 

Edit: On top of that social media makes it easy to misinterpret and twist words. This is how a lot of misinformation is created.

Well said. Much appreciated. 

[The Lock]

2 minutes ago, Kryten said:

Yes, a branch not a field 

 

Has CSF been successfully researched? No? Where is the lineup of scientists to solve this problem? There isn’t one. Why not?

All answered by the article. 
 

JFC, stay on target and don’t lose the thread by pointing out one exaggeration. 

K I meant branch. Sorry if that one word confused you. I just thought you'd be able to understand what I was asking.

 

CSF actually still is being researched according to a quick google lookup: https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=Chronic+fatigue+syndrome+research+2020&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

 

I don't know to what extent compared with before. It just may not be in Britain? I do see how it can be a problem though, but at least it's not completely stopped being researched if that helps.

[Kryten]

1 hour ago, The Lock said:

K I meant branch. Sorry if that one word confused you. I just thought you'd be able to understand what I was asking.

 

CSF actually still is being researched according to a quick google lookup: https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=Chronic+fatigue+syndrome+research+2020&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

 

I don't know to what extent compared with before. It just may not be in Britain? I do see how it can be a problem though, but at least it's not completely stopped being researched if that helps.

Lol, did you actually read those research notes? Those are reviews and epidemiological studies, not actionable research. 

Here, I copied a portion for you:

 

Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) is a debilitating disease with unknown causes. From the perspectives on the etiology and pathophysiology, ME/CFS has been labeled differently, which influenced changes in case definitions and terminologies. This review sought to feature aspects of the history, developments, and differential symptoms in the case definitions. A search was conducted through PubMed published to February 2020 using the following search keywords: case definition AND chronic fatigue syndrome [MeSH Terms]. 
 

Bolded for viewing pleasure. 
 

Anyways, I am sure this is being researched by someone somewhere. That isn’t the point, the point is that research will now be stigmatized and create an arena for ideologues and not scientists to do battle. Scientists should be free to research however they choose and the feelings of the hypersensitive should not alter the results of such studies or result in the culture of fear if that research doesn’t follow the “plan”.

[The Lock]

2 minutes ago, Kryten said:

Lol, did you actually read those research notes? Those are reviews and epidemiological studies, not actionable research. 

Here, I copied a portion for you:

 

Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) is a debilitating disease with unknown causes. From the perspectives on the etiology and pathophysiology, ME/CFS has been labeled differently, which influenced changes in case definitions and terminologies. This review sought to feature aspects of the history, developments, and differential symptoms in the case definitions. A search was conducted through PubMed published to February 2020 using the following search keywords: case definition AND chronic fatigue syndrome [MeSH Terms]. 
 

Bolded for viewing pleasure. 
 

Anyways, I am sure this is being researched by someone somewhere. That isn’t the point, the point is that research will now be stigmatized and create an arena for ideologues and not scientists to do battle. Scientists should be free to research however they choose and the feelings of the hypersensitive should not alter the results of such studies or result in the culture of fear if that research doesn’t follow the “plan”.

I didn't go too far into the research. Like I said earlier though, I can see your point. In no way was I attempting some sort of "bad faith" argument or anything. I was legitimately curious and I hope you can see that. I don't even know enough about CSF to really have an opinion on it itself. I'd have to take time to actually form an opinion on it but really that's a little pedantic from the whole argument.

 

I am of the mindset that you can go too extreme with both right and left, which I am assuming is the main premise of your initial argument to begin with at least. I just wasn't too sure on the science aspect of it.

[Kryten]

14 minutes ago, The Lock said:

I didn't go too far into the research. Like I said earlier though, I can see your point. In no way was I attempting some sort of "bad faith" argument or anything. I was legitimately curious and I hope you can see that. I don't even know enough about CSF to really have an opinion on it itself. I'd have to take time to actually form an opinion on it but really that's a little pedantic from the whole argument.

 

I am of the mindset that you can go too extreme with both right and left, which I am assuming is the main premise of your initial argument to begin with at least. I just wasn't too sure on the science aspect of it.

It was and I apologize for my passive aggression, it’s just my way of being an ass (I deserve to get smacked every so often so I remember to mind my manners). I admit I initially thought you were being bad faith, but I do remember you being reasonable in the past.

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

You're not really a part of what I am talking about then generally speaking. You're what we need more of. People willing to see other peoples perspectives.

 

Overall we are afraid of what we don't know and we hate what we are afraid of.

 

By having a conversation with the other side you're expanding your perspective and you eliminate any fear and hatred you might have toward people on the other side of the spectrum.

The way I see it yes there is 2 sides.

The corporations and their flunkies- most politicians and a big chunk of the media.

Then there is the individual citizen,who as I keep on stating just wants a roof over their heads,food on their table,access to affordable health care and to feel safe.

 

If you buy into this left and right BS you are playing right into the hands of the people who want to manipulate and control you.

 

 

[Junkyard Dog]

23 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

The way I see it yes there is 2 sides.

The corporations and their flunkies- most politicians and a big chunk of the media.

Then there is the individual citizen,who as I keep on stating just wants a roof over their heads,food on their table,access to affordable health care and to feel safe.

 

If you buy into this left and right BS you are playing right into the hands of the people who want to manipulate and control you.

 

 

Big corporations play into double standards and are extremely two-faced. I already mentioned how fake they are, like Disney, earlier in this thread.

 

Just look how many of them are tied to China and then say they stand for xxx movement. It's all pretend so they don't look bad and make the most money.

[Smashian Kassian]

On 2/20/2021 at 1:20 PM, stawns said:

That's not really an example though.  I'm not saying your point might not be valid, but a more specific example might clear it up

 

 

On 2/20/2021 at 2:15 PM, Jimmy McGill said:

I'm not sure how thats anti scientific method? 

 

One of the core tenants of post modernism is that objective knowledge isn't possible. It's all power structures. Meaning; institutions & ideas are developed to uplift & benefit those who set them up - while oppressing other experiences & ways of knowing. Other ways of knowing which are all equally valid because, again, the notion of objective knowledge is rejected. 

 

And if objective knowledge is not possible..

Well then theres the issue, as that's kind of the whole point of things like math (dealing in) & science (discovering).

 

The anti-racism movement has adopted this post-modern power structures idea quite explicitly (among other ideas);

 

https://blogs.ams.org/blogonmathblogs/2020/06/21/what-does-anti-racist-mathematics-look-like/

Quote

First and foremost, one must acknowledge that mathematics is part of a societal system that is inherently racist.

..........

Back in January, Dr. Tian An Wong asked ‘can mathematics be anti-racist?‘ in the AMS inclusion/exclusion blog, he concludes,

“Nonetheless, one thing is clear: if mathematics is political (and also racial and gendered), then we must be on the side of justice, whatever that may look like. In other words, if mathematics can be antiracist, then it ought to be.[…] I don’t pretend to have the answers to the questions I am asking. This small sampling suggests a handful of possibilities for mathematics as, say, an intersectional, anti-racist, and class-consciously feminist enterprise. In any case, if we can agree that mathematics can operate as whiteness, then we have a moral duty to ask how mathematics might be otherwise. There is much work left to do. With the strength of our combined mathematical creativity, what might we come up with if we dared to imagine?”

What does anti-racist mathematics look like? And, how is anti-racist mathematics practiced?................... How do we get there? 

 

“There is no such thing as a “not-racist” policy, idea, or person. Just an old-fashioned racist in a newfound denial. All policies, ideas, and people are either being racist or antiracist. Racist policies yield racial inequity; antiracist policies yield racial equity. Racist ideas suggest racial hierarchy, antiracist ideas suggest racial equality. A racist is supporting racist policy or expressing a racist idea. An antiracist is supporting antiracist policy or expressing an antiracist idea. A racist or antiracist is not who we are, but what we are doing at the moment.” – This is what an antiracist America would look like. How do we get there? by Ibram X Kendi.

 

^ This is just to say that I'm not making up my original points about the postmodernism stuff.

 

The example is from Oregon, the ODE.

 

https://mises.org/wire/math-racist-does-not-compute

Quote

....
Currently, the most famous example is from the Oregon Department of Education. It advertised a February 21 “Pathway to Math Equity Micro-Course” that espouses “ethnomathematics” in order to begin “dismantling racism in mathematics,” because mathematics reflects “white supremacy culture.” In contrast, ethnomathematics would help overcome the “unequivocally false” belief in “mathematics being purely objective” and counter “the idea that there are always right and wrong answers,” which “perpetuate objectivity.” Alleged evidence includes that “the focus is on getting the ‘right’ answer” and that students are “required to ‘show their work.’”

 

Instead of focusing on a right answer, the training urges teachers to “come up with at least two answers that might solve this problem.” It also suggests “unpacking the assumptions that are made in the problem,” and “identify[ing] and challeng[ing] the ways that math is used to uphold capitalist, imperialist, and racist views.”
....

 

https://clarion.causeaction.com/2021/02/13/why-math-is-racist/

Quote

This is actually a claim that is being made often these days: the sciences in general, and math in particular, are racist. The latest comes from Oregon:

 

The Oregon Department of Education (ODE) recently encouraged teachers to register for training that encourages “ethnomathematics” and argues, among other things, that White supremacy manifests itself in the focus on finding the right answer.

An ODE newsletter sent last week advertises a Feb. 21 “Pathway to Math Equity Micro-Course,” which is designed for middle school teachers to make use of a toolkit for “dismantling racism in mathematics.”

 

How can mathematics possibly be racist?

 

Part of the toolkit includes a list of ways “white supremacy culture” allegedly “infiltrates math classrooms.” Those include “the focus is on getting the ‘right’ answer,” students being “required to ‘show their work,’” and other alleged manifestations.

“The concept of mathematics being purely objective is unequivocally false, and teaching it is even much less so,” the document for the “Equitable Math” toolkit reads. “Upholding the idea that there are always right and wrong answers perpetuate objectivity as well as fear of open conflict.”

 

I think that failing to do one’s homework and study for tests is racist. Of course, we all know what groups such attacks on “objectivity” and “getting the right answer” are intended to benefit:

 

ODE Communications Director Marc Siegel also defended the “Equitable Math” educational program, saying it “helps educators learn key tools for engagement, develop strategies to improve equitable outcomes for Black, Latinx, and multilingual students, and join communities of practice.”

 

Liberals believe that scientific and mathematical talent are distributed unequally among the races, with Asians being well-endowed in those areas, and blacks below average. Therefore, it is appropriate to discriminate against Asians and to lower standards for blacks–e.g., by pretending that it is unimportant to get the right answer to a math problem.

Are they right? I doubt it. Shelby Steele made the opposite case in an interview in yesterday’s Wall Street Journal:

 

[Steele] points to affirmative action and diversity—“the whole movement designed to compensate for the fact that blacks were behind”—and says that blacks today have worse indices relative to whites in education, income levels, marriage and divorce, or “any socioeconomic measure that you want to look at” than they did 60 years ago.

 

“It’s inconceivable,” says Mr. Steele, “that blacks are competitive in universities today.” In the 1950s, by contrast, they matriculated with slightly lower grade-point averages than whites and graduated with GPAs slightly higher than whites. “Nobody gave them anything,” Mr. Steele affirms. “They didn’t want them in universities then. We would never put our race on an application, because it would be used against us. The minute we started to get all these handouts from guilty America in the civil-rights era, we entered this uninterrupted decline.”

 

I suppose it would be possible to come up with a better plan to destroy black academic performance than by telling black students not to worry about getting the right answer to a math problem, but I can’t think what it would be.

 

And on the science end, there's been the attack on biological sex surrounding transgenderism & gender neutrality, which has been pretty well documented. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Smashian Kassian

[Ilunga]

16 minutes ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

 

One of the core tenants of post modernism is that objective knowledge isn't possible. It's all power structures. Meaning; institutions & ideas are developed to uplift & benefit those who set them up - while oppressing other experiences & ways of knowing. Other ways of knowing which are all equally valid because, again, the notion of objective knowledge is rejected. 

 

And if objective knowledge is not possible..

Well then theres the issue, as that's kind of the whole point of things like math (dealing in) & science (discovering).

 

The anti-racism movement has adopted this post-modern power structures idea quite explicitly (among other ideas);

 

https://blogs.ams.org/blogonmathblogs/2020/06/21/what-does-anti-racist-mathematics-look-like/

 

^ This is just to say that I'm not making up my original points about the postmodernism stuff.

 

The example is from Oregon, the ODE.

 

https://mises.org/wire/math-racist-does-not-compute

 

https://clarion.causeaction.com/2021/02/13/why-math-is-racist/

 

And on the science end, there's been the attack on biological sex surrounding transgenderism & gender neutrality, which has been pretty well documented. 

The word mathematics is a noun that describes the abstract science of number, quantity and space,either as abstract concepts -pure mathematics- or as applied to other disciplines such as physics and engineering- applied mathematics.

 

Mathematics itself is not and never will be racist.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Ilunga

[Smashian Kassian]

8 hours ago, The Lock said:

Would you perhaps be able to give a specific example of a field that's been lost because of the left?

 

I think the problem's more how a lot of scientific studies are being conducted. John Oliver did a good show once on scientific studies.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rnq1NpHdmw

 

Basically, there's a lot of "science" happening at the same time, where you have results that are funded by corporations and are just on in the best interest of the populace as a whole. So while, yes, there are issues happening that you are bringing up and I'm not denying that, there's also "science" that's not really science.

 

I think, when it comes to science, there's just a lot of murky waters. Don't get me wrong. I love science and read a lot about space and technology and learn a lot about physics, but how many studies are promoting chocolate and wine, and then saying the opposite a few years later?

 

Definitely. How many scientific discoveries actually hold up through rigorous review? I'd guess very very few.

 

Along those lines there's also a point to be made about the whole "just trust the science" statements that act as if science is a settled answer key, rather than a method of testing to world to replicate results & find correlations.

 

Im not advocating conspiracy or anything, but if the "trust the science" view is taken & accepted to refute any form of questioning, then corruption would become appealing for corporations and such, as you say.